Talk:Mexican drug war/Archive 4

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ATF gunwalking scandal

There's a new article called ATF gunwalking scandal, where all the "gunwalking" operations from 2006-2011 are explained more in detail. Any contribution would be extremely helpful. Thanks. ComputerJA (talk) 16:23, 16 October 2011 (UTC)

Drug-related violence was raging (between different rival drug cartels) in Mexico before any intervention was made

However, the government's principal goal has been to put down the drug-related violence that was raging between different rival drug cartels in Mexico before any intervention was made.[1]

There are POV problems. What do you mean by intervention? Drug criminalization is an intervention? Or do you mean military intervention?

Why president's (one side of the conflict) statement is used as a reference? Sureseven1 (talk) 18:35, 25 November 2011 (UTC)

(Quick and ignorant reply) It definitely means a military intervention. However, I do agree that more POVs should be presented. For example, the "why" and the "how" of the government's "negotiation" with Mexico's criminal underworld during the one-party rule of the PRI. There's a lot to talk about, and this article, although it covers important aspects of the conflict, surely needs some improvement. Cheers. ComputerJA (talk) 04:31, 28 November 2011 (UTC)
There was no drug-related violence before the government got involved. The violence is a *direct consequence* of the government's involvement. The Sinaloa Cartel was empowered to act by the protection and backing of the government, and the initial strikes all involved the use of government personnel. The Los Zetas brutal escalation was specifically because of the Sinaloa's use of government forces against them - they felt the Sinaloas had crossed a line. (Explicit in a Los Zetas statement published by El Universal in 2005). --2602:30A:2EA0:D9F0:EC0E:B7EE:2487:A3D5 (talk) 05:57, 27 October 2013 (UTC)

Resources

From WSJ, Mexico Economy Withstands Drug War November 23, 2011 by David Luhnow 141.218.36.43 (talk) 00:50, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

No need to shout. 99.181.142.144 (talk) 06:09, 28 November 2011 (UTC)
See http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/international/countriesandterritories/mexico/drug_trafficking/index.html with Mexico: 26 Bodies Found in Cars by Karla Zabludovsky published November 24, 2011 in the NYT, excerpt ...

Many victims had “Milenio Zetas” written on their chests. A message was left in one of the vans clarifying that this is a battle between cartels and not with ordinary citizens. It also referred to the governments of Jalisco, where Guadalajara is located, and Sinaloa (Culiacán, Mocorito, Sinaloa, Guamúchil), where 16 people were found charred on Wednesday.

From http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-202_162-57331031/26-bodies-found-dumped-in-guadalajara/ ...

Crime in this colonial city of some 1.5 million people was historically dominated by the powerful Sinaloa cartel, but the group's tight grip was shattered by the death of its regional commander, Ignacio "Nacho" Coronel, in a shootout with federal police in July 2010. Guadalajara's murder rate then soared as factions of the cartel known as the New Generation and the Resistance battled to control Coronel's territory and assets. Street battles have left hundreds dead in the city and surrounding areas. Killing slowed to a trickle during the Oct. 15-30 Pan American Games, which brought a massive influx of police and soldiers.

99.181.134.134 (talk) 06:35, 29 November 2011 (UTC)

Add 2011 alleged Iran assassination plot association content?

Add reference to 2011 alleged Iran assassination plot from Portal:Current events/2011 October 11? 99.181.134.134 (talk) 06:48, 29 November 2011 (UTC)

resource

The Stories You Missed in 2011: 10 events and trends that were overlooked this year, but may be leading the headlines in 2012. by Joshua E. Keating December 2011 Mexico's Drug War Moves South, excerpts ...

With the addition of Belize and El Salvador this year, all seven countries in Central America are now on the White House's list of major drug-trafficking states. Sixty percent of the cocaine that enters the United States through Mexico first travels through Central America, according to a Congressional Research Service report.

  • "Homicide rates in four of the seven countries have increased significantly in the last five years -- in Honduras, they've more than doubled.", "Until now, the cocaine itself has been processed almost exclusively where coca is grown in the Andean region of South America. But in March, the first cocaine-processing lab ever discovered in Central America was found in Honduras."
  • "In El Salvador, which has also seen its crime rate skyrocket, Sinaloa and the Zetas are believed to have established alliances with local gangs such as the infamous Mara Salvatrucha."

  • In May, Guatemala saw its worst massacre since the 1996 end of its civil war, when 27 people were decapitated by drug gangs in the country's north. Entire regions are now effectively under the control of the Zetas, Mexico's second-largest drug cartel, which has access to machine guns and rocket-propelled grenades and has even built its own airstrips in the jungle. The Guatemalan government launched a major military offensive against the Mexican cartels in the first few months of this year, but failed to expel them. There are widespread reports that a number of Guatemalan politicians are receiving kickbacks from the gangs or otherwise tied up in cartel activity.

99.181.131.59 (talk) 04:57, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

I see no possible way this story could be used to support something in this article. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 07:31, 5 December 2011 (UTC)
I think this fits better in the articles of Los Zetas and the Sinaloa Cartel. However, there's a section of Guatemala in this article, so it can go there, too. ComputerJA (talk) 15:43, 5 December 2011 (UTC)
It's a tertiary source, even if possibly reliable. We prefer secondary sources (i.e., its sources.) Still, it could be used for some purpose, I suppose. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 00:05, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

(od) See Illegal drug trade in Guatemala, Illegal drug trade in Honduras, and Illegal drug trade in El Salvador. 99.56.123.187 (talk) 07:05, 2 January 2012 (UTC)


Coup d'etat or failed state scenarios?

Shouldn't this article discuss the risk of the coup d'etat or failed state scenarios? It seems to me that's the major impact of the drug war on Mexican tourism right now---i.e., the risk that foreign tourists may not only be caught in the crossfire, but could become hostages in the event that the cartels topple the Calderon regime, persuade enough of the military to switch sides (as with the Zetas) and install a puppet government loyal to them. I'm referring in particular to the Iran hostage crisis.--Coolcaesar (talk) 15:22, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

If you can provide a vast and credible amount of sources to back it up, then yes, it belongs here. You might want to take a look at Wikipedia:No original research. Also if you decide to write about it, remember that Wikipedia is not a crystal ball. "It is appropriate to report discussion and arguments about the prospects for success of future proposals and projects or whether some development will occur, if discussion is properly referenced. It is not appropriate, however, for editors to insert their own opinions or analyses." Hope this helps. ComputerJA (talk) 15:57, 9 December 2011 (UTC)
I agree with ComputerJA. A coup d'etat or failed state scenarios are hypothetical at best. Cheers, BatteryIncluded (talk) 20:14, 11 December 2011 (UTC)
I agree too, see Failed state and List of countries by Failed States Index instead. 99.56.122.24 (talk) 07:28, 12 December 2011 (UTC)
Found some sources, adding them. --Coolcaesar (talk) 07:49, 6 August 2012 (UTC)

CIA involvment

I think it would be interesting to mention CIA involvment in the war and in special their relationship with Los Zetas and Sinaloa Cartel. In the Belligerants list shoud be the CIA. This is similar to the CIA and Contras cocaine trafficking in the US sources:

i agree. this seems to be very well sourced, and relevant Divinity76 (talk) 17:57, 3 November 2011 (UTC)

Yes, the USA is supporting Mexico with intelligence, training and equipment. See Merida Initiative, which is already mentioned in this article. Since the USA does not have armed agents in Mexico, USA (or CIA) is not listed as a beligerent. Cheers, BatteryIncluded (talk) 19:23, 13 January 2012 (UTC)
[1] This article seems to be under the impression that there are armed agents in Mexico. "Their push has been backed by American aid in the form of helicopters, remotely piloted drones and the deepening involvement of American drug agents in investigations and raids." I don't really think you can be involved in a raid without having foot soldiers on-site.--haha169 (talk) 21:45, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
If you click on the "deepening involvement of American drug agents" in the article, it sends you here: [2]. It talks about American informants working in Mexican soil. It's a reality, but it usually happens in the shadows, and only the Mexican government knowns about it. ComputerJA (talk) 22:16, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
Indeed -- mentioned in the section I just posted below (including a link) is the ongoing Zambada case that seems to totally confirm US complicity with the Sinaloa cartel. The NY times characterizes this as some sort of "infiltration" but Narco News, and other reporters whose on-the-ground work in Mexico is more widely respected than that of the sensationalist/Pro-US-govt news agencies, tend to interpret it differently: that the Sinaloa cartel has long had a privileged relationship with the Mexican government and that is now extending to include a privileged/turn-a-blind-eye relationship with the US government as well. 68.193.166.17 (talk) 13:36, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

2011 Total Death Figures

The value we have that was given to us by the Mexican government only covers the period of 2011 up until September. There was a value released by a consultant from this group: https://sites.google.com/site/policereform/narco-killings that put the value at 18,601 people killed during 2011. This value was not kept on the website however (replaced with the current 2012 value), it can be seen on his twitter: https://twitter.com/#!/wmmckay (on January 4th). My suggestion is, if enough people agree on the validity of the consultant group (check out their website), then I will contact him and try and convince him to have a permanent place for the value on his website which we can then use on this page as possibly a second value for the 2011 figure. 24.203.85.8 (talk) 19:35, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

Sure! Go ahead. BatteryIncluded (talk) 19:23, 13 January 2012 (UTC)

Okay, I got in contact with him, I will make the changes whenever I find time. 24.203.85.8 (talk) 01:28, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

Made the edit, if anybody has an issue with the change they can bring it up here. I have an email from him explaining how he collects his data if anybody is interested, I would rather avoid posting an email without his permission but if it is deemed absolutely necessary I will do so.24.203.85.8 (talk) 20:03, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

Mention of electronic money transfers in introduction

Does the fact that cash is being smuggled more because electronic money transfers are being intercepted need to be in the introduction to the article? This seems out of place and could probably go elsewhere in the article where it fits better. 64.56.156.66 (talk) 20:49, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

Good question. It probably doesn't belong there. In all honesty, the intro needs A LOT of improvement. I currently have other projects here on Wiki, but I want to tackle this article in the future. The intro should be more of a "summary" of the whole article, not a list of facts that are incongruent with the whole picture. If you can make some edits, please do so, thanks! ComputerJA (talk) 18:18, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

military as belligerents opposite the cartels?

i know this is the basic outline of the war (military/govt on one side, cartels on the other) but needless to say it's more complicated than that, and the article could touch more on the corruption of the military (only the police corruption is really detailed, obviously the military corruption is much more sensitive since they are the chief recipients of US military aid in the conflict and corruption or tarnishing of their reputation reflects poorly on the vetting, or lack thereof, done by their US paymasters). many argue that the military has done far more in the service of the cartels than it has in the service of the executive branch of government (and their US patrons) in fighting the cartels. see charles bowden, john gibler, ed vulliamy, bill conroy, and other longtime observers of the conflict. also i don't see much about the widespread official corruption on the US side of the border, which extends far beyond the border/customs agents who are regularly bribed to let drug loads through -- in addition to the notorious and well-known "house of death" scandal implicating ICE in allowing an asset to commit mass murder so that they could make a cigarette smuggling case (http://www.narconews.com/houseofdeath/), there is also the issue of numerous allegations that leading members of los zetas were trained at US institutions such as fort benning's school of the americas, not to mention the recently declassified documents surrounding the prosecution of vicente zambada that reportedly confirm complicity between the US government and the sinaloa cartel (http://narcosphere.narconews.com/notebook/bill-conroy/2011/12/zambada-niebla-case-exposes-us-drug-war-quid-pro-quo). 68.193.166.17 (talk) 13:27, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

Hello. Type it and cite reliable sources. It should be a good read. Cheers, BatteryIncluded (talk) 03:01, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

Corruption in the Mexican penitentiary system

Greetings, everyone. As you might know, with the recent scandals in the Altamira prison brawl and the Apodaca prison riot, a lot of things have been brought to light. The corruption inside the prisons, the overpopulation, the organized crime activity within prison walls, the massacres between rival cartels, impunity and weapon accessibility, inadequate conditions, federal criminals in state prisons—the list can go on and on. I think this issue deserves a section in this page (and an individual article, too). What do you all think? Thanks. ComputerJA (talk) 06:41, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

imo it carries no weight in this article, per WP:UNDUE, but it can be used under a See-also section. Regards, Mercy11 (talk) 13:07, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

Massacres in Mexico articles

Hello everyone. I just finished editing the following articles: 2010 Tamaulipas massacre; 2011 Tamaulipas massacre; Apodaca prison riot. I come here to see if any of you guys can proofread the articles and see if there's any mistakes. I'll be working on the Monterrey casino attack soon. Thanks! ComputerJA (talk) 00:15, 13 March 2012 (UTC)

New source

About drug wars:

WhisperToMe (talk) 07:47, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

Reynosa–Monterrey highway massacre

Newly created article for the massacre where 49 people were killed by Los Zetas. Feel free to edit it. Thank you! (BBC News)

Journalists killed

Would something like List of journalists killed in the Mexican Drug War be welcome? GiantSnowman 10:04, 19 May 2012 (UTC)

Yes, definitely. I like the idea. And maybe we can add a little more context for each of the journalist, too. ComputerJA (talk) 18:03, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
I've created a basic stub, perhaps we should discuss on the new article talk page about the format for the table before we spend time/effort expanding. GiantSnowman 18:27, 19 May 2012 (UTC)

Security policy of Enrique Peña Nieto

Once he becomes the president on 1 December 2012, I'll add some parts of his policy in this article. I'll make similar articles for FCH and Fox by then too. Feel free to add more stuff. ComputerJA (talk)

Enrique Peña Nieto being the new President of Mexico is not going to change the way security is enforce. It is seen that the "Narcos" are the onse who have more control and power than the own President himself. The government lost all the control they had. Different areas of Mexico are being protected by different Drug leaders and their "Cartels" instead of the Home Security. In simple words it seems that drug leaders run the place and provide security for their own area. (Erika.kiika (talk) 04:32, 4 November 2012 (UTC))

  • Thank you for your input. If you have any reliable sources on EPN's strategy, please include them in the article. Your input is welcomed! ComputerJA (talk) 04:40, 4 November 2012 (UTC)

The Drug War in Mexico

The drug traffickers from the cartel have been invading many national territories. Many have been impacted, including civilians, Mexican Policeman, and the military. The criminal organization has converted Mexico in power of the production, distribution, sale, and exportation of drugs. After generation they have adopted names, domains, and territories, remaining with great power. Their names and nicknames are part of the common language, from Tijuana to Cancun, from Reynosa to Tapachula. Their faces are familiar and beyond the brutality they are capable, which is added to daily life in Mexico. Trafficking reflects the drugs along with the rest of the country's social structure with its undeniable cultural stamp, and with its undeniable lifestyles with no limits to their violence. The men with power have some, if not most control of the economic system and politics with unlimited abuse. It has contributed to degrading of the country because the size of the drug trade in Mexico is equivalent to how much government corruption occurs. Rodriguez Castaneda, R. (2010). El mexico narco. (1st ed., pp. 9-11). Mexico, D.F.: Editorial Planeta Mexicana. 

Authorities have captured the top leader of the Gulf cartel and may lead to a fatal blow to one of Mexico’s drug trafficking networks. There no doubt that this will unleash a violent power struggle that will impose struggle to the incoming government elective, President Enrique Pena Nieto. By capturing the leader of the Gulf cartel it essentially wipes out the organization that once dominated large parts of Mexico. Even with the capture of the one leader the cartel still control important smuggling routes to the U.S. through the northeastern border region. The Gulf cartel leader, Jorge Eduardo Costilla Sanchez known as “ El Coss,” was arrested Wednesday night at a home in the eastern port city of Tampico. Flanked by masked marines, Costilla was presented to reporters in Mexico City on Thursday morning. Costilla was one of the most-wanted fugitives in Mexico, whose government offered a reward of $2.3 million. In the U.S., where he was charged for drug trafficking charges and for attempting to kill U.S. Federal Agents, officials had placed $5-million bounty on him. The Gulf cartel had been losing ground to onetime ally and armed wing, the vicious Zetas paramilitary force, and to fight back had to form a partnership with the powerful Sinaloa cartel, Mexico’s largest cartel. The strong partnership leading to one of the biggest bloodshed of the drug war, including beheading's, massacres of migrants, and the dumping of large numbers of bodies. The capture will likely lead to bloody battles as drug gang’s scramble to fill in the void and seize of the Gulf cartel’s assets.

Wilkinson, Tracy. (September 14, 2012 Friday ). THE WORLD; MEXICO UNDER SIEGE; Latest drug arrest may cripple the Gulf cartel; A violent power struggle among gangs could pose a challenge for the new president. Los Angeles Times.

The billions spent by Mexico and the United States towards the drug traffickers in Mexico has done very little, if it had been effective, the price of street drugs should have gone up but a gram of cocaine cost 16 percent less last year than it did in 2001. There is 19,500 hectares of Mexico land devoted to the poppy cultivation for heroin; the 17,500 hectares growing cannabis; the 95 percent of cocaine imports is transported to the U.S. by Mexican cartels through Mexico and Central America. Enrique Peña Nieto, just elected president of Mexico, is a scion of the Institutional Revolutionary Party, which was tainted by authoritarianism, corruption and fraud during seven decades in power. In the United States, neither President Barack Obama nor his Republican challenger, Mitt Romney, have shown much interest in the nation's southern neighbor. (July 5, 2012 Thursday ). It's time for the U.S. to cut its losses in the war on drugs; Economic Scene. The International Herald Tribune. SergioM1021 (talk) 15:57, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

  • Hello.
I'm not exactly sure what your proposal is. Can you please explain it in your own words? ComputerJA (talk) 16:46, 3 October 2012 (UTC)
I'm guessing he wants to add that content into the article, which is fine if it's rewritten rather than a copy-and-paste. -- FutureTrillionaire (talk) 05:29, 13 October 2012 (UTC)

Orphaned references in Mexican Drug War

I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Mexican Drug War's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.

Reference named "aljaz":

  • From Heriberto Lazcano Lazcano: "Mexico says Zetas cartel boss killed". Al Jazeera. 9 October 2012. Archived from the original on 10 October 2012. Retrieved 10 October 2012. {{cite news}}: Unknown parameter |deadurl= ignored (|url-status= suggested) (help)
  • From ATF gunwalking scandal: "Probe faults US agents over Mexico gunrunning", Al Jazeera, 20 Sep 2012.

I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT⚡ 04:11, 14 October 2012 (UTC)

 Done -- FutureTrillionaire (talk) 14:02, 14 October 2012 (UTC)

Well I suppose this is what happens when you try to nationalise the entire drug trade... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.110.246.238 (talk) 11:41, 12 April 2013 (UTC)

Article has serious PoV problems, whitewashes US government/CIA involvement

I am seriously shocked at the amount of whitewashing of government involvement in the article.

Let's start with the CIA's responsibility for cocaine trafficking through Mexico as part of the Iran-Contra scandal. Evidence for this has been on record in several major trials, and was acknowledged by government commissions in the late 80s and early 90s. It was the CIA which helped make Mexico the major drug hub for colombian cocaine, and this clearly belongs in the background section.

  • Mentioning the CIA is definitely important, but giving it undue weight is certainly not acceptable. The background section should explain a number of things, not just CIA allegations. Topics that specially sensitive should be handled with caution and impartiality. ComputerJA (☎ • ✎) 06:22, 27 October 2013 (UTC)
    • I'm not sure what Undue Weight would even mean here. The evidence demonstrating it happened has been convincing since at least 1989 (The US Senate held a hearing which established the CIA's involvement in the drug trade), and they were critical to connecting Mexican cliques to Colombia's drug organization and securing transport of narcotics into the US. Undue relative to what else? --2602:30A:2EA0:D9F0:C0B3:674B:BA78:4EB0 (talk) 17:58, 27 October 2013 (UTC)

We should also mention the Mexican government's long and intimate ties to drug traffickers, from the 70s where traffickers paid a tax to teh government to run drugs, into the 80s and 90s when they held the purse strings of major government personnel, and into the 2000s when the government officially backed El Chapo (including aiding his escape from prison) and the Sinaloa Cartel.

  • There was not any "official" support from the government in favor of El Chapo. Anabel acusses the Fox administration of letting him out, but general consensus says he escaped on a laundry basket with the help of the prison guards, not the federal government. ComputerJA (☎ • ✎) 06:22, 27 October 2013 (UTC)
    • The laundry basket story is the official scenario, but its riddled with holes and contradicted by eyewitness testimony. Of course news services ran the story as the government told it, but that doesn't make it credible if the story isn't credible. Actually, this goes to a more general point I'll get to below. --2602:30A:2EA0:D9F0:C0B3:674B:BA78:4EB0 (talk) 10:17, 27 October 2013 (UTC)
  • That means that we cannot establish what actually happen, and attempting to twist the story one way or another is unencyclopedic and downright dishonest. If anything, we should describe what the "official" story says (the story of the government, most news services, and authors) of El Chapo's escape. We can also discuss what others (including Anabel) have discussed—that he did not "escape," but rather "allowed" to go thanks to his links to the government. But I oppose an undue weight of the minority view. ComputerJA (☎ • ✎) 16:58, 27 October 2013 (UTC)

The 'drug war' was kicked off in 2005 in Guerrero when federal police (AFI under Genero Garcia Luna) picked up several Los Zetas members, some with their wives and children, and turned them over to the Sinaloa Cartel (who tortured and executed them). When a video surfaced of the torture and execution, the Mexican government was forced to act. Eight officers were arrested, but five were almost immediately released. The other three had sham trials because the agency the AFI was responsible for evidence collection, and, as they were complicit, the prosecution fell apart due to poor evidence.

  • General consensus usually cites 2006 as the start of Mexico's drug war. I've seen other dates that are as back as 2003, when the Sinaloa Federation made its move into Tamaulipas following the arrest of Osiel Cárdenas Guillén. I've never seen a source back up what you say. ComputerJA (☎ • ✎) 06:22, 27 October 2013 (UTC)
    • 2006 is of course when the violence kicked into high gear, because the Los Zetas went into reprisal mode with an eye to do damage, but they didn't start the drug war. The El Universal article cited by Hernandez from December 8, 2005 that features a Los Zetas ultimatum and effectively a war declaration in response to the kidnappings would be great to verify, but El Universal's online archives only go to 2009, so we'd need someone to find a physical copy of it. --2602:30A:2EA0:D9F0:C0B3:674B:BA78:4EB0 (talk) 10:17, 27 October 2013 (UTC)
  • I never said Los Zetas started the drug war. If anything, general consensus says that it started in Operation Michoacán in 11 December 2006, when FCH dispatched troops for the very first time. BTW, do you have the links for the sources of El Universal? Some of them are archived at archive.org. Check them out and see if they're there. I've had older sources appear. ComputerJA (☎ • ✎) 16:58, 27 October 2013 (UTC)

At about the same time, Nahum Acosta, a high ranking member of President Fox's administration, was arrested on corruption charges stemming from a large collection of incriminating taped conversations with El H. Despite this wealth of evidence, the charges were quickly dropped, and Nahum Acosta was rewarded by Fox with a new job as a department head in Pemex.

  • I know Anabel talks about that in her book but I couldn't find any source on the web to back that up. ComputerJA (☎ • ✎) 06:22, 27 October 2013 (UTC)

Basically, the Sinaloa Cartel used the government forces as a military arm of their organization to attack the Gulf Cartel. That's the origin of the current drug war, and avoiding mention of the government's involvement is a seriously pro-government bias.

  • You'll need a good source for that. The fact that police officers and corrupt soldiers are involved in drug trafficking should not be given undue weight. All drug gangs in Mexico have law enforcement officers on their payroll, not just the Sinaloans. Attempting to place the administration of Calderon as an "official" supporter of the Sinaloa Cartel is a seriously anti-government bias. ComputerJA (☎ • ✎) 06:22, 27 October 2013 (UTC)

Narcoland by Anabel Hernandez is a good place to start, and she has an excellent bibliography which could be mined for more immediate sources. --2602:30A:2EA0:D9F0:EC0E:B7EE:2487:A3D5 (talk) 05:53, 27 October 2013 (UTC)

  • I got the book on my hand. That is definitely a great book—don't know if you're read it, but I'm assuming you have. If you want, we can work your concerns out together. Just remember that Anabel's book should be handled with caution. Many of her "sources" are mere allegations from alleged criminals and informants. It's specially important to distinguish and be able to differentiate them. All the best, ComputerJA (☎ • ✎) 06:22, 27 October 2013 (UTC)
    • I'm not sure why informants and criminals should be treated with any more caution than the Mexican government's statements? If the Mexican government is involved, and they appear to be deeply involved, then they have vastly more ability to suppress the truth or portray altered versions than any of the individuals Hernandez interviewed. Hernandez points at several documents that are now missing, and many many more which the PGR (prosecutors office) or the AFI refuse to make public. I'd give Hernandez's book more credibility than the Fox or Calderon administrations. A lot of these things you're calling consensus are simply the Mexican government's spin on events. No government should get to dictate the dialog about the drug war as consensus. --2602:30A:2EA0:D9F0:C0B3:674B:BA78:4EB0 (talk) 10:17, 27 October 2013 (UTC)
  • They should be treated with caution because there is no way to verify their veracity. I don't want you to think I'm here to suppress your viewpoint. I just want all viewpoints to be balanced out accordingly; Anabel's book is very important for the drug war literature—and especially now that it has an English version. But it's very unfortunate that her viewpoints, although very important, are still a minority within most press releases and books. ComputerJA (☎ • ✎) 16:58, 27 October 2013 (UTC)
  • Let's not confuse the issue with referring to our personal viewpoints.
  • There's no way to verify the government story either. They're the "consensus" view because no outside investigation was allowed to be conducted. (And indeed, suggested tests of the government theory have been prevented by the government). Just because the government makes a claim does not make it true. Nor is Hernandez's view any more a minority. It doesn't matter how many news sources parrot the Mexican government - it's still a single source.
  • And Hernandez actually gives evidence in support of her theory. The government has provided no real evidence. It's forbade a test of the theory's possibility. Claims without evidence should be treated as a minority view.
  • --2602:30A:2EA0:D9F0:C0B3:674B:BA78:4EB0 (talk) 17:21, 27 October 2013 (UTC)
  • I am totally in favor of including the role of the CIA in the background section. I just want to make sure that all viewpoints and events in Mexico's narcotics history are given due weight, or in other words, that the section "fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources, in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint in the published, reliable sources". Maybe you know more about this than me but I am pretty confident that most published reliable sources do not hold that the "CIA […] helped make Mexico the major drug hub for Colombian cocaine", as you mentioned earlier. If anything, I think they would cite other reasons (the demise of the Colombian cartels and the fall of Escobar, the increased surveillance on the Florida drug hub, just to name a few). The CIA's role should be included, but "the majority view should be explained in sufficient detail that the reader can understand how the minority view differs from it, and controversies regarding aspects of the minority view should be clearly identified and explained" (please see WP:UNDUE). The same goes for the corruption allegations of El Chapo and the Mexican federal government. If you are interested, please see Wikipedia:Verifiability, not truth, which also explains where I am coming from and responds to your final comments. Anyways, thanks for your interest in the subject and for consulting the talkpage. Have you considered creating a Wikipedia account? ComputerJA (☎ • ✎) 03:37, 28 October 2013 (UTC)
    • Re: Verifiability, not truth: Hernandez's version of, for example, El Chapo's escape, is *more verifiable* than the government's, since she cites eyewitness testimony. The government never gave any evidence at all. Frequently repeated is not the same thing as verified. (The only thing it verifies is that the government said it). --2602:30A:2EA0:D9F0:C0B3:674B:BA78:4EB0 (talk) 19:31, 28 October 2013 (UTC)
Thank you for your opinion, but I am not here to discuss what you consider "more veriable", I'm here to discuss Wikipedia policy and the majority view of published, reliable sources. The official and majority view of El Chapo's escape was that he managed to do this thanks to the complicity of the Puente Grande prison guards and leader. The minority view—that he was released by the PAN government as part of a larger plot—should be discussed as a minority view and not be given undue weight. Controversial subjects on Wikipedia should be handled with caution (please see Wikipedia:Neutral point of view). Thank you, ComputerJA (☎ • ✎) 20:22, 28 October 2013 (UTC)
I'm not sure you know what 'verifiable' means. Are you saying Hernandez is not a reliable source? (Her book would seem to qualify as verifiable for the WP standard). I'm not saying we shouldn't acknowledge the government's claims, but we should treat them as just that (claims), not facts. And if preference is given to any viewpoint, it should be to the one that actually cites facts rather than just spin. --2602:30A:2EA0:D9F0:41C:1ED3:241D:2C91 (talk) 01:05, 29 October 2013 (UTC)
Your opinion on what viewpoint should be preferable is irrelevant to Wikipedia. And your opinion on the government investigation is irrelevant too. The majority view says that El Chapo escaped thanks to the complicity of the prison guards (whether that happens to be the government's version of the case irrelevant); the minority view says he escaped (or allowed to go, if you will) because the PAN government allowed him to do so. I never said Anabel's book is not a reliable source, I said that Anabel's perspective is part of the minority view in terms of El Chapo's escape from Puente Grande prison. Please go back and read my comments on the majority versus minority view above. If you can find general consensus from published, reliable sources that Anabel's perspective is indeed the majority view, maybe you'll have a case. Thanks, ComputerJA (☎ • ✎) 02:51, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

Links

[3] corruption and dismiss entire police force (As controversial issue) + >> Mexico vigilantes seize drug cartel bastion>> Army to intervene in Mexico state>> Mexico forces face off with vigilantes(Lihaas (talk) 15:05, 16 November 2013 (UTC)).

Vigiliante groups

Shouldn't the article contain some detailed info about vigilante groups fighting against the cartels? Especially in Michoacan state.--FutureTrillionaire (talk) 15:53, 15 January 2014 (UTC)

Go for it, this article indeed needs updating though we should be careful not to get stuck in details that may become outdated quickly♫ SqueakBox talk contribs 19:17, 15 January 2014 (UTC)

Demand reduction?

So what happened? There's a lame sentence about Obama requesting $5.6 billion for demand reduction in 2010, and then nothing. Did it get passed? Did demand go down? Does that even belong in an article about Mexico? 208.95.187.15 (talk) 23:15, 14 February 2014 (UTC)

External Links

The external links section needs an overhaul per WP:EL. There are currently 35 entries, including spam links, bare URLs, non-English material, and news coverage of specific events (rather than general coverage of the article topic). Meters (talk) 17:56, 11 October 2014 (UTC)

Trimmed Meters (talk) 18:27, 11 October 2014 (UTC)

Mexican Drug War, War on Terror = War on Meaning & Understanding?

War on this, war on that - should Wikipedia be using this unhelpful (US) MSM term? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.24.229.226 (talk) 10:13, 7 May 2015 (UTC)

Ineffective educational system

It seems to be a bit of a stretch and a biased POV to place such a large part of the blame on teachers' unions for the state of the Mexican educational system and, in turn, its role in the drug war. Does that claim really belong there? — Preceding unsigned comment added by InsectOverlords (talk • contribs) 07:53, 14 July 2015 (UTC)

¿Venezuela? ¿Hezbollah?

Venezuelan people and goverment are not implicated with Zetas Drug Cartel. Hezbollah don't have any connection with Mexican Guerrillas or Drug Orgs. The part modificated of this article was created by an anti-bolivarian or antivenezuelan person. A zionist person, fanatical yankee or probably colombian who hates Maduro Goverment and islamic revolution. When this article and this "Mexican Drug War" don't have participation of islamic orgs like Hezbollah and latinamerican goverments like Venezuela. Only Colombia, United States, Mexico and Central American Goverments have or had participation in this conflict.

--Saúl Nezahualcóyotl (talk) 17:35, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

  • Agreed. Feel free to remove the information. Some editors have added crazy claims over the years. The media seems to be fascinated with the possibility of having Middle Eastern groups and communist/socialist governments allied with drug cartels. ComputerJA (☎ • ✎) 18:25, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
So I just saw this edit and I think Wikipedia is better than assuming things and name calling, we use reliable sources. If there is a dubious user here, Saúl Nezahualcóyotl seems to be a single purpose user. I have gone through many news stories and publications and contribute to WP articles where it is necessary with reliable sources. If we can place the CIA as an "alleged" supporter, which can "Middle Eastern groups and communist/socialist governments" be exempt? Saying that "Colombia, United States, Mexico and Central American Governments" are the only ones involved is just a blatant lie as well since Venezuela is one of the largest hubs for illicit drugs in the world. So, I will place this information back for now.--ZiaLater (talk) 16:43, 24 February 2016 (UTC)

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Mexican Drug War in Media/Movies?

Hey everyone, long time no see. It's been years since I have been active on here, but I used to be pretty active in editing various articles (and created a few) dealing with the MX Drug Wars and specific cartels and individuals involved. I was thinking it might be a worthwhile idea to add a section to this article that would list movies/TV shows that have references to the MX Drug Wars/cartels. E.g. "Sicario," "The Bridge," "Traffic," "Breaking Bad," etc.

I don't know, I was just thinking it might be a good reference for people who would be interested in media involving the subject matter. Just wanted to post here for others' thoughts before launching in.jlcoving (talk) 22:27, 28 December 2016 (UTC)

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"Mexican theater of war"

This is a nonsensical and politically loaded term used in the lead. "Mexican theater of the United States War on Drugs" implies there is a literal theater of armed warfare in the United States and in other countries around the world. "War on Drugs" has always been a political policy term. Drugs are as illegal in Mexico as they are in the U.S., actually moreso given multiple states in the U.S. have decriminalized or legalized some drugs.

The point of this lead is to imply U.S. policy is responsible for the Mexican state's instability and drug/violence epidemic. As far as I'm aware Mexico is a sovereign state that makes and executes its own laws. The lead should be revised immediately to accurately describe the situation for what it is: an ongoing, asymmetrical low-intensity conflict between the Mexican government and its allies against powerful drug cartels and gangs.

--Bigeyedbeansfromvenus (talk) 18:28, 28 July 2017 (UTC)

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  1. ^ "ANUNCIO SOBRE LA OPERACIÓN CONJUNTA MICHOACÁN". Presidencia de la Republica, Mexico. 11 dic 2006. {{cite news}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)
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