Talk:Mbaye Diagne

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Good articleMbaye Diagne has been listed as one of the Warfare good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.
Article milestones
DateProcessResult
February 17, 2020Good article nomineeListed
On this day...A fact from this article was featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the "On this day..." column on May 31, 2020.

copyvio[edit]

I am sort of new at this, so I am not sure, but it doesn't seem right to copy paragraphs from a copyrighted web site and paste them into Wikipedia. Should the offending paragraphs be reworded and proper citations added, or is the article technically OK as is? Thanks. --Rochphys 18:50, 20 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I believe that I've rewritten all the copyvio. It's a shame that it stuck around for so long, but thanks for making a note of it. - BanyanTree 09:43, 10 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

GA Review[edit]

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This review is transcluded from Talk:Mbaye Diagne/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Le Petit Chat (talk · contribs) 14:00, 2 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Some comments before assessing:

  • "He found the prime minister's four children being hidden in the adjoining United Nations Development Programme housing compound. He was discovered later that morning by the UNAMIR Force Commander..." Did he stay with the children until Dallaire came?--Le Petit Chat (talk) 14:00, 2 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • The article should be expanded to other aspects of Mbaye Diane's life. Cne Diagne graduated from the Ecole Nationale des Officiers d'Active in 1984 and then fought in the Casamance conflict. See this comics (in French): page 5--Le Petit Chat (talk) 14:00, 2 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    • @Le Petit Chat: I'm hesitant to use that comic as source. The foundation that publishes it seems legitimate and it is for educational purposes, but it's a dramatization. The retelling of how he "saved" Doyle's life also quite different than from how Doyle recounts it. The comic makes it seem like Diagne stumbled across Hutu militia about to execute Doyle, when in Doyle's recollections of the event have consistently placed him in a car with Diagne and at no point did the Hutu militiamen directly threaten his life with a gun to his head. I've found a news source that details the early parts of Diagne's military career so I think that suffices. -Indy beetle (talk) 20:51, 6 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
      • I completly agree with you about not using this comics. I cited this comics ony as a clue that more can be said about his service before UNAMIR. The source you found is better. --Le Petit Chat (talk) 22:09, 6 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • He saved Doyle's life when militiamen tried to kill him as a "Belgian". Mbaye Diagne jokes "I'm the Belgian here, look - black Belgian." to avoid Doyle being murdered [1]. I think it should be mentionned.--Le Petit Chat (talk) 14:00, 2 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Despite UN rules of engagement prohibiting observers from going out to save civilians" Who did decide these rules? Was it pragmatic because of the danger (cf. the death of Belgian peacekeepers)? From the UN resolution ([2]), the peacekeepers had the right to help refugees. --Le Petit Chat (talk) 10:13, 3 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    • I've changed it to "Despite UN rules prohibiting personnel from intervening in the conflict" since this is more true to the source and most other sources in general. This comes from a statement by UN official Gregory Alex, who said "Yeah, it was against orders, and the orders were not to intervene in the conflict. Mbaye ignored those orders, and at the same time his general [Gen. Dallaire] knew what he was doing, never stopped him." Most other sources say the same thing, which I guess means that going out to rescue civilians was viewed as intervening. UNAMIR helped as many people in need during the genocide as they could, though it seems these were mostly people who managed to make their own way to UN protected sites where they were granted refuge. -Indy beetle (talk) 06:55, 6 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
      • I wouldn't consider Dallaire to be a reliable source about UNAMIR mandate (but he is about Diagne's action). His book is a plea pro domo. See this review of his book by Gil Courtemanche [3]: "In spite of serious omissions, in particular about the massacres in the areas that were theoretically made secure by the UN, in spite of its ponderous and often verbose style, it is unfortunately a book that must be read in order to understand how, with imperturbable coldness and implacable cynicism, the peacekeepers allowed an entire country to commit suicide." I agree that "Despite UN rules prohibiting personnel from intervening in the conflict" seems to be the best way to sum up the debate.--Le Petit Chat (talk) 09:49, 6 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Assessing[edit]

Thanks for answering my first comments. Some new remarks:

Introduction[edit]

a. In the introduction, the belligerants of the Rwandan Civil War should be cited. For instance, "Hutu-ruled Rwandan government and Tutsi rebels" or something like that. I will help the reader to understand who are the "Rwandan Armed Force" and the "Rwandan rebels".--Le Petit Chat (talk) 23:46, 6 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    • Done.

b. I think the ethnic "division" of Rwanda should be introduced.--Le Petit Chat (talk) 23:46, 6 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    • Er, you mean explain that the country had a Hutu majority and Tutsi minority? I think "Hutu-dominated government and the Tutsi-led Rwanda Patriotic Front" covers that.
      • Indeed, this remark was linked with the previous one.--Le Petit Chat (talk) 19:58, 15 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

c. I would also remove the part "[Hutu extremists] moved to seize power". The main point is that these former allies of President Habyarimana started a genocide.

    • Removed.

d. "Diagne was born in 1958 in Senegal" Should it be mentionned since his birthdate has already been given?--Le Petit Chat (talk) 23:46, 6 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    • Removed

e."... United Nations military observer who served in Rwanda during the 1994 Rwandan genocide. During the genocide he undertook many missions on his own imitative to save the lives of civilians" - twice during the genocide--Le Petit Chat (talk) 23:46, 6 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

f. "African military observer team" isn't clear enough. Maybe "Organisation of African Unity military observer team"? --Le Petit Chat (talk) 23:46, 6 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

g. "Various estimates exists for the number of lives Diagne saved, ranging from dozens to as high as over 1,000." - "dozens" isn't very clear.

Service in Rwanda[edit]

h. "Hutu extremists moved to seize power". Weren't they already close to power? The application of the Arusha Accords was delayed because of their alliance with Habyarimana.--Le Petit Chat (talk) 23:46, 6 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    • They were indeed close to power, but they weren't quite there yet. That's why they eliminated the PM and President of the Supreme Court. -Indy beetle (talk) 00:20, 8 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

i. "He came to investigate" Why him? He wasn't a police detective. It was heroic to do so but I don't understand why?--Le Petit Chat (talk) 23:46, 6 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

    • It appears he did this on his own choice, which doesn't seem unusual considering how much personal initiative he took during the genocide. It wasn't so much a murder investigation he was conducting as he was verifying that the Prime Minister was indeed dead. Since his official job for UNAMIR was liaison between UNAMIR and the Rwandan government, it would make sense that he would want to know for sure if the PM was dead. -Indy beetle (talk) 00:20, 8 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

j. "...attacked by a government militia armed with machetes." - government-militia is an oxymoron. "Pro-government militia", "Hutu militia", another idea? --Le Petit Chat (talk) 23:46, 6 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Honours and commeration[edit]

k. Dallaire's citation about the media coverage could be moved to this section.--Le Petit Chat (talk) 23:46, 6 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Images[edit]

m. One image is very few.

  • Maybe add an image of the Hôtel des Milles Collines?--Le Petit Chat (talk) 23:46, 6 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Could a still from Diagne's video footage be included under fair use?--Le Petit Chat (talk) 23:46, 6 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    • I've been unable to pinpoint which footage was his in the documentary, and the collection of his videos PBS published on its website won't load for me because I lack the requisite software.
      • @Indy beetle: I've added an image I found on youtube. Do you think it's ok under fair use?--Le Petit Chat (talk) 11:00, 17 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
        • I don't speak French, but if that is indeed footage he recorded than that seems fine. -Indy beetle (talk) 21:03, 17 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Even if it is a set from a film, do you think the file File:Set of "Shake Hands with the Devil" (Kigali, July 2006).jpg could be used to illustrate the UN convoys and Hutu checkpoints?--Le Petit Chat (talk) 23:46, 6 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    • Honestly I'm kind of loathe to portray a very real, sensational/infamous event (genocide) in such a fashion. -Indy beetle (talk) 13:53, 16 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
1. Well written?: Pass Pass(a,b,e,f,g,i,j,k)
2. Verifiable?:Pass Pass
3. Broad in coverage?: Pass Pass (c,d,h)
4. Neutral point of view?: Pass Pass
5. Stable?: Pass Pass
6. Images?: Pass Pass (m)

@Indy beetle: From this review, the article meets the GA criteria. Congratulations!--Le Petit Chat (talk) 21:59, 17 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]


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