Talk:Lists of school-related attacks/Archive 1

Erfurt

Where's the Erfurt massacre? !!!??? --TheFEARgod (Ч) 11:51, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

La Trobe University

On May 7th, Sarah Jean Cheney, a 27 year old female science student attacked and repeatedly stabbed Jemma Clancy, a 22 year old behavioural science student with a steak knife. The incident occured in the Borchardt library at the Bundoora campus of La Trobe University. The Sarah Jean Cheney did not know Jemma Clancy personally and expressed that she just had a desire to kill someone. Jemma Clancy was taken to hostipal in a serious but stable condition and has since been released.

I don't know how to edit the tables, sorry. 131.172.4.45 03:47, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Where is La Trobe University? and do you have and sources that you can cite? - HammerHeadHuman ^(talk)(work) 05:12, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

La Trobe University Everything said above seems to be correct Looking carefully it seems there's a number of mistakes but anyway, the incident is covered in: [1] [2] [3]. Cherries Jubilee 07:54, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

It appears that this still needs to be added now that sources have been confirmed. Novadestin (talk) 19:28, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

University of Arizona - Nursing College

I'm confused by the omission of the University of Arizona nursing college shooting of 2002. 4 Dead. Info below:
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/10/29/national/main527308.shtml
http://www.opa.medicine.arizona.edu/news/oct02/victims.htm
http://wc.arizona.edu/papers/97/specials/nursing.html Builttoscale 03:50, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

It is clearly listed under "College and university school incidents" Novadestin (talk) 18:24, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

One case from Finland missing from the list

There is one case from Finland, 24.1.1989 at Rauma (small coastal town)

Schoolboy shot two classmates who then died at hospital.

Here are only two references that I was able to find at net (in finnish)

Helsingin Sanomat (leading finnish newspaper - i have no acces further than this preview) http://www.hs.fi/arkisto/haku?pageNumber=1&order=FIFO&advancedSearch=1&free=koulu+AND+surma&date=1990&depa=Kotimaa&fromDay=1&fromMonth=1&fromYear=1990&toDay=1&toMonth=1&toYear=1992

this is other article where this case is referred, seems that it has it correct. http://www.ylioppilaslehti.fi/2006/01/27/koulukiusaamisen-lyhyt-historia/

In Finland firearms and cartridges can be acquired only with a license that is issued by police. Schoolboy used his fathers legal pistols.

:Why wasn't this added? This is mentioned also in Jokela school shooting-aricle with reference. - 86.60.131.177 (talk) 01:04, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

teacher

Clarence Piggott was shot and killed at Valley High School in Las Vegas Nevada. March 19,1982 —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 128.123.126.106 (talk) 11:09, 3 May 2007 (UTC).

LeatherEngine (talk) 02:24, 20 November 2007 (UTC) Resource needed.

Another student

Kayla Roland should be added to the Elementary/primary schools list: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kayla_Rolland

208.120.100.103 06:33, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Louisiana Technical College

8 Feb 08: Latina Williams shot and killed two other women than killed herself http://www.wafb.com/Global/story.asp?S=7842633

Somebody add this to the list, please. 70.248.24.131 (talk) 18:07, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

School shooting

I can't believe you guys don't have VA tech or that ashamed school on here —Preceding unsigned comment added by Supermike (talk • contribs) 15:39, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Of course VA Tech is there, and it is exactly where it should be. You need to look under the right section. In the table of contents, click on "3 College and university school incidents", then scroll down through the chronologically organized section. --User101010 (talk) 14:04, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

REGARDING LATEST MAJOR EDITS (July 31, 2007)

It would be considered more appropriate and ethical to proceed to the TALK Section BEFORE attempting to amend/remove another individual's input. Also, if the removed content(s) has legal weight - but does not quite conform to the category it has been found in - perhaps it would be much wiser to KEEP the freely available authoritative and verifiable content - that is not of your work - AND simply amend the Title category - where it was found - to a more appropriate value? Once again, one would have to proceed to the TALK Section and SHARE suggestions before applying biased and uncalled-for edits that are not of one's own input.

AWAITING a valid reply from those concerned... . --just 17:28, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Page name

All the subsection headers use "killings"; should this page be "list of school killings" instead? Titanium Dragon 21:13, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Since there is a section for non fatal and foiled attacks I would say no. --67.68.155.33 02:15, 24 April 2007 (UTC)

Present/ Past Tense

It seems like the article switches between past and present tense randomly.

Many Problems With This Page

Firstly, as the top of the talk page anonymously suggests, this list is biased toward the US. Most of the "massacres" occur there, and many are trivial in nature. When these massacres occur in the US they should not be listed simply as "Stockton, California," but rather, "Stockton, California, United States" just as the listings from other countries appear: "Barcelona, Spain."^{(My mistake, that was a different list I recently saw, but the remainder applies... -HHH)} Next, the term massacre hardly applies to many of the entries (as many others have noted), and it doesn't apply at all to the list of "non-fatal" attacks. This list should be different than any other, and should list its sources, I don't think any entries should be included that don't have reputable sources that specifically call the events "massacres." Otherwise this list is almost completely POV, or at least original research. - HammerHeadHuman ^(talk)(work) 05:25, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

• Additionally there is the problem of maintaining the list, which at the present standards would be nearly impossible to keep current and accurate. - HammerHeadHuman ^(talk)(work) 05:26, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

We should include the name of the massacre, and the name and age of the shooter in the second column. Christopher Connor 19:19, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

• Also, the "description" field should be much more brief. Each entry already contains a link to the event's article, so there is no need for detailed explanations here. Shorter entries will make the list as a whole much more readable - HammerHeadHuman ^(talk)(work) 19:29, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

Major revisions, name change

I have done some major revisions to this list in the last few hours, but before I post the final product I want to explain my changes here. First, I have only deleted entries that don't warrant a spot on this list (i.e. bomb threats where there was no actual bomb). I have integrated the list of "Other gun related incidents" and "Non-fatal shootings..." with the main list, as it no longer contains only a list of so-called "massacres" (please note, that as a list of massacres, these incidents didn't really belong anywhere near this list, this is a solution to keep the list mostly intact). I have removed most of the piping and from the location links, and simplified them in general. I have shortened some of the descriptions (but only on entries that have actual articles) I have added sections for the attacker's name and age, and for the number of victims (including attacker-suicides). In all honesty this is not a major revision, most of the information is exactly the same, but the layout has changed. Any names that could not be found are marked with "...", additionally, any case where the number of victims and their state (injured/dead) could not be easily found out through the description has been marked with "(?)" following the description. As a final edit I will change the name of this article from "List of school massacres" to "List of school related attacks" to better reflect the contents of this list.

These revisions were meant to address some of the concerns that have been raised on the talk page for this article, I hope that people will be happy with the results. These changes were made first in a sandbox, so any warning tags may have been accidentally erased in the editing process, sorry bout that; please feel free to re-add them. I would love to hear comments/complaints... - HammerHeadHuman ^(talk)(work) 07:06, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Good work. I also suggest making the description column wider and location narrower. Christopher Connor 11:25, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

• I tried, but the table configures itself automatically. Notice that the location and attacker fields are only as wide as the widest entry in the column. So, the only way to increase the width of the description field would be to decrease the width of one of the other fields. Give it a try if you feel up to it. - HammerHeadHuman ^(talk)(work) 18:45, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

For a location like Red Lion, York County, Pennsylvania, you can actually split each part into separate parts, like Red Lion, Pennsylvania, Pennsylvania. I suppose you can also do it manual, but I don't know how. Christopher Connor 21:42, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Final revisions (that I will make) are done for now. I'm going to step away from this one for a while and take a few breaths. I decreased the text size so everything fits a bit more smoothly, rearranged the columns order, increased the intro, and added an image that seemed appropriate for the subject. Hope y'all like it. - HammerHeadHuman ^(talk)(work) 00:05, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

I like the changes, everything looks neater and simple. I agree the description section needs less information, especially if there is a direct Wiki link to an article about it. I also like the incorporation of ""Other gun related incidents" and "Non-fatal shootings..." with the main list", however I feel the "Foiled or Exposed Plots" list should be removed entirely as it could really be its own list and could easily be much longer. Besides this is list is more for events that actually took place....thoughts? Novadestin (talk) 19:56, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

International perspective

With its current title it is weird that this page excludes attacks by military groups as highlighted in UN publications here and here. Internationally this is arguably a much more important issue, e.g. in terms of numbers of deaths, disruption to education, violation of international law.

I propose a broader article with something like the following structure: 1. attacks on schools by military and terrorist groups - outline statistics - how many, where most of them are - perhaps discuss some major country cases - legal and human rights issues 2. attacks on schools by individuals or - numbers, by country and - listing some major ones - psychological and sociological perspectives - if necessary link to a more detailed page on this sub-topic —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.168.97.34 (talk) 12:25, 24 March 2010 (UTC)

It seems to me that it would be more efficient to create seperate articles for (1)attacks on schools by military and terrorist groups and (2) Attacks on schools by individuals. These two are very different as the first is usually a political issue and the second usually is the result of more psychological issues. The motive here is key in classifying them as seperate tpes of events. ----Nightenbelle talk

Article Mistakes

The first event, which took place in Newburgh, NY, lists James Foster as the attacker, when in fact, James Ferguson is the name in the article "Fired into group of children" published April 10, 1891 on page 2 of the New York Times. the article is available for viewing in PDF on www.nytimes.com. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.11.239.43 (talk) 23:18, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

someone should add the decapitation of the chinese student at virginia tech today.

Massacre vs Individual event

I think that massacres or multiple injuries/deaths should be the first section and individual events be a separate section. I came to this article from a school shootings which has a very good description of how they differ:

School shooting is a term popularized in the United States and Canada media to describe gun violence at educational institutions, especially the mass murder or spree killing of people connected with an institution. A school shooting can be perpetrated by one or more students, expelled students, alumni, or outsiders. Unlike acts of revenge against specific people, school shootings usually involve multiple intended or actual victims, often randomly targeted. School shootings receive extensive media coverage but are infrequent. They often result in nationwide changes of schools' policies concerning discipline and security. Some experts have described fears about school shootings as a type of moral panic.

Canuckle 10:17, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Why suicides?

Is there a particular explanation for why this list considers (isolated) suicides to be "attacks"? It seems kind of pointy. Like someone is maybe trying to convince others that suicides are a Big Deal. I really don't think this is the kind of information that people are looking for on a list like this, and beyond that, I'm pretty sure that suicide incidents tend to be non-notable -- it's the homicidal, criminal factor of incidents like these that make them notable. The only time a suicide is notable is when it is attached to a person who is already notable. Ham Pastrami (talk) 09:37, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Suicides are not a "Big Deal" or "notable"? I don't think it would be wise to say that to someone who has had one happen at their school (especially if it was a friend of theirs). It could have very well been different and turned into a shooting as well. Besides it is a school death, although I do understand the title of this article is school related "attacks" which implies homicide rather then suicide. So, while I disagree (strongly) that they are not a big deal and notable, I do agree that we should separate the two and perhaps make new article for them. Novadestin (talk) 19:51, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Please do not take my words out of context. Suicides would be perfectly suitable for a List of suicides. Trying to cram them into an article whose focus is clearly on interpersonal violence is, as I said, pointy. They have no relevance to a list of attacks/shootings/massacres. Wikipedia is not a memorial. Ham Pastrami (talk) 02:15, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Including suicides is a bad mistake. You start listing the school property suicides in Japan alone and this list is going to get REAL long REAL fast. Worldwide it may number in the millions.71.197.68.207 (talk) 17:43, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

I agree, suicides don't belong on this list, and neither do war-related incidents, as the Beslan, Vietnamese and the Lenape incidents. Nor the University massacres of the 70s. Not unless they are of Jonestown proportions.--CrashTestSmartie (talk) 00:09, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

While generally I agree that suicides are not school attacks- I think that public suicides on campus or during school events are attacks and should be included. --Nightenbelle talk —Preceding undated comment added 18:31, 7 April 2011 (UTC).

Reason?

Is there a reason why the USA has the vast majority of the killings? Is it a bias of information, or is it just making an unintended yet fairly obvious statement? Due to there been gun shops, pretty much anyone can steal guns from there parent' house, and then use them to kill.

There's a couple reasons:

1) The US (300 million) is huge by most world standards. We would have a lot no matter what. The CORRECT statistics should be events per capita. 2) The US is a relatively free country. You CAN own a firearm (or other weapons for that matter) and not have to show up in the local police station twice a year for psychiatric evaluation. 3) The US publishes relatively honest crime statistics. So honest Amnesty International uses the US Justice Department figures for its own studies. Amnesty International does not use the official figures for any other country. They go to third party. 4) It's politically correct that the US is the worst country in history.Aaaronsmith (talk) 07:03, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

what's politically correct? Not included in the US statistics are the numbers of violence against black students, because those were simply not recorded. Also, if you want start counting in 1764 or even in 1900, then those should be included as well. But they were never accounted for, so ... ?--CrashTestSmartie (talk) 23:50, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

Here's some hard facts: according to my list there have been 106 school related attacks in the US, 3 in Canada, and 15 in other countries around the world. Granted my list is really out of date and I am updating it now (and in turn will update here later) but it shows that no it is not bias information that most school attacks happen in the US.Novadestin (talk) 18:19, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

May I politely request you do a little research (I'm not interested enough to go to the trouble). Try this Wiki page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_shooting just for a beginning. Strictly from personal experience with a lot of general reading I would say this page is both larger than your "15 in other countries" and VERY incomplete. Please remember that most countries fudge their crime statistics - ALWAYS low. Some are actually so honest as to admit crime statistics are official secrets. The US, with its independent states which keep individual statistics, is one of the few that does not. Thank you if you check this out.Aaaronsmith (talk) 23:56, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Guys, take this discussion to main articles on the subject, if this discussion is even appropriate for WP. The reasons behind regional patterns of shootings ultimately does not affect what does and does not go into the list, which is what this talk page is for. Any attempt at explaining causation would be material for the main articles, not the list. Ham Pastrami (talk) 02:20, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Of the 182 incidents on the page (and I don't include the Vietnamese, the Russian Beslan and the 1764 incidents, because they are clearly war incidents) there are 118 American ones (not 106), or 64.84 percent of total, resulting in 328 deaths or 43% on a total of 757 deaths. Injured are 563 of 817 or 47 percent. Comparison with other rich nations is more fair than with the world as a whole. Then, the American deaths are 328 of 504 or 65 percent and the wounded are 563 of 817 injured, or 69 percent. So yes, the numbers confirm the gut feeling that American school shooting are occurring far more than in other countries. And if you wanna include school death during wartime, then how about the Dresden bombings during WW2? --CrashTestSmartie (talk) 23:50, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

"Massacre" Definition?

Isn't massacre most commonly defined as a mass killing? Some of these incidents involve the death of only one people. There is no actual definition, but should an article on 'attacks' or something of that sort be created? Zchris87v 19:18, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Well committing suicide in front of a class is not exactly an "attack" either. "Massacre" may not be the best term, but I think to make a suitable title, the article would need to be broken down, and it seems most effective as a single article. If someone can think of a better title and post it here, the change can be voted on. Ian Burnet 00:50, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

I propose this be changed to "List of School Killings". Unfortunately, there's a section non-fatal incidences, so this isn't quite right either. Maybe "List of School Attacks" Clemwang 19:02, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

"Massacre: the act or an instance of killing a number of usually helpless or unresisting human beings under circumstances of atrocity or cruelty." Clearly this page is incorrectly named. "List of School Attacks" seems more appropriate.--Fizbin 19:50, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

In some of those cases no one even dies. Change massacre. AMac2002 04:46, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

I suggest change it to "List of school attacks". 220.239.88.91 22:00, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree. For example in the Talk page for the Dawson college shooting the clear consensus was to change it back to shooting when someone changed it to massacure because only 2 people died and one of the dead was the shooter. I don't see any reason to go against that consensus. Some may be classified as massacres but other should not, especially if there were no deaths at all as there were in the non fatal attacks. List of School attacks is much more accurate. Also since this is a redlink it can be moved by anyone who is a member and since there appears to be a clear consensus that Massare is not the correct term I think it should be moved there due to it being the best title. The reason is that that the other terms suggested do not cover every event as well as attack does. Killings does not since all the events were not fatal and shooting does not either since not every incidient involved a gun. --65.95.17.91 23:56, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

Shouldn't the Huntersville, NC incident be under the "gun-related" sub-heading? The poor kid was off-campus at a Circle K.

UNC Van Incident

Why isn't this one on the list? http://www.newsobserver.com/102/story/415421.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by 221.75.236.170 (talk) 13:15, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Maybe because the link isn't working and I have no idea what your asking about? Novadestin (talk) 18:21, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

2 possible shootings?

I have a map of the US from a news site that I got a long while ago (say back in 1999/2000) that shows school shootings in St. Charles, MO and Johnston, RI. I have not been able to find any evidence on these two occurrence's and thought maybe they were foiled/hoaxes/whatever. However I am reluctant to just toss them out because I can't find anything for or against them. Maybe its just under a different name or something, I don't know. Does anyone know of information that could prove they did or did not happen? Novadestin (talk) 22:45, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Page should have more columns

For:

• Number of fatalities
• Number of wounded —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Matt57 (talk • contribs) 20:06, 17 April 2007 (UTC).

Primary School Section lists Notre Dame Elementary but doesn't count the shooter as one of the dead —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.164.80.22 (talk) 17:28, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

The "Number of Victims" lists both dead and injured so there's no point in having a separate column for each. And the Notre Dame one does not list him as dead because he killed himself at his home, not at the school itself.Novadestin (talk) 18:29, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Bath School disaster

This is listed under the heading of "elementary school" incidents, although Bath School (per the article and references) was comprised of grades 1-12, something which you don't see a lot of these days. Since it included all these grades, would it be better to create a separate category rather than leave this in elementary? 12.164.130.219 04:37, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Bath Consolidated School was comprised of several smaller schools that served many neighboring areas (it was 1-12 because it was mostly a rural district and probably easier to keep everything under one roof). But to create a separate category for one listing would seem rather silly, especially since all the victims that were killed were in grades second to sixth. Novadestin (talk) 18:54, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Anomalous

Under Secondary School related attacks, November 19, 1999 in Deming, New Mexico. It says, "12-year old Victor Cordova Jr. shot and killed 13-year old Araceli Tena. Tena died a day later from sustained wounds in life support." This says that she was already dead when she died, a better way of stating this would be, "12-year old Victor Cordova Jr. shot and wounded 13-year old Araceli Tena. Tena died a day later from sustained wounds in life support." Could I get permission to edit it please? 84.45.134.188 (talk) 20:57, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

If the information is wrong and you have correct, sourced, information then edit it so that the information is correct. Novadestin (talk) 19:29, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

You don't need to discuss fixing obvious mistakes. Just use the edit summary to explain what you did. Ham Pastrami (talk) 23:22, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Possibly Fatal Flaw

We have about 6 (or so) incidents involving a knife. World wide that should be more like 60 thousand. I think the page is just a way for amateur "current events experts" to show how much they know locally and how little once they get beyond the front page of the MSM.

This problem should be addressed before making any more entries to the page or we'll just have more to fix when we finally get around to the real problems.Aaaronsmith (talk) 21:21, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

wow

That's a lot of stuff! Hindusauce (talk) 07:04, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Number of entries

There should be about 500 million entries? That sounds like... . Oh... never mind. If there should be around 500 million entries, then prove it. 67.8.55.66 (talk) 19:23, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Shooting suicides and other kinds of violence happens in school all the time. Why should we list all of them? This is an encyclopedia, not a record of events and statistics. I say we take all of the shooting suicides and minor incidents down, and leave the major ones up. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rolled (talk • contribs) 23:39, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Should all minor incidents be deleted?

I believe that we should have all the minor incidents to be deleted, and instead, keep the more major incidents such as the Thurtson High School shooting. Any incidents with two or three wounded or plots should be deleted, as this is a wikipedia, and not a record list. Plehhh (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 08:08, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

==That will make for interesting arguments on this page. What is a serious event? Is a killing serious in the US where it is rare and minor in the Mid East where it happens all the time?

==The only way to be 100% consistent w the page as defined is to include ALL events. If the school bully knocked you down in 6th grade 40 years ago, that qualifies and should be included.Aaaronsmith (talk) 17:07, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Has anyone besides me gone to the trouble of doing some REAL research on the question? I couldn't find it on the web or in the local library, but a very big university library had the statistics for student suicides in Japan. LOoooooong list.Aaaronsmith (talk) 21:24, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

--A bully 40 years ago? I think that is not quite a "School-related Attack." If we did that this page could quickly turn into chaos as students around the globe try to humiliate bullies by listing their names on here. The Wiki notability policy should be applied here- list attacks that have been noted by reputable sources and had an impact on the society in which they happened. So while a shooting with only a few victims in a school that has had many of those may not be worth mentioning, a similar occurrence in a rural area might have more impact and be worth noting. --Nightenbelle talk —Preceding undated comment added 18:36, 7 April 2011 (UTC).

Primary? Secondary? College? Or what?

Does this shooting fit anywhere? I really don't know where to put it. (Lord Gøn (talk) 13:39, 19 September 2008 (UTC))

Hm, it says the attacker was 18. It also says a 24-year-old student was killed. Sounds like college. 90.178.52.11 (talk) 15:43, 6 November 2009 (UTC)

Winnenden Shooting

Why is the Winnenden school shooting under the University/College section and not under the " Secondary school section" ? Doesn't make much sense to me, since it was on a Realschule, which is clearly a secondary-type school.--Daondo (talk) 01:11, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

It clearly doesn't. I have moved it to "Secondary school incidents" where it belongs. 217.95.67.254 (talk) 06:24, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

Incomplete List

Reading this article in conjunction with the School Shootings list on Wikipedia, it is evident that this list is not complete. The School Shooting article lists 8 incidents in the US for 2008 - ostensibly the most notable ones, and yet some of them don't appear on this list.

What I really need is a full, completely accurate list of attacks, and this isn't it. This list SHOULD be full and complete, imo. I know that's quite difficult, but it should be the aim.

--SparkyCola (talk) 11:00, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

It is been noted many times, and AfD requested many times that this list has SERIOUS problems. Serious undercounting (my best estimate is it is coming up short by a factor of 1,000 and maybe as much as 100,000. Note: My statistics is good, but data is incredibly hard to come by. I used reasonably figures based on population and % attending school. Take w large grain of salt) and and extreme bias for Western countries.

AfD,AfD,AfD,AfD,AfD,AfD,AfD,AfD, ---- Pleeease.Aaaronsmith (talk) 00:09, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

I agree that the objective should be a complete list if possible or as close as can be achieved but in order to do that a lot of work needs to be done compiling data. Until this is done perhaps with a statistical backup there shouldn't be any claims that it is complete. Perhaps there should be a statement saying it is incomplete and temporarily biased to report USA events. To delete this would be unreasonable in my opinion a lot of people have done a lot of work to compile the data already and this would mean wasting a lot of work for nothing. This data could be used for important research to understand the cause of this violence and learn how to prevent it. Deleting it would hamper that effort. Zacherystaylor (talk) 15:41, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

What about changing this list to "list of school related attacks in US" and moving any other country's events to separate lists. The bottom of this list could have links to all the other lists. Since the actives would be blue, and the inactives red (did I get that right) the spotty nature of the data would immediately become obvious.

OOOORRrrrr we could create a list that gives school related attacks as a normalized percent (of school attending population).

OOOORRrrrr we could create a list of countries listed by percentage completeness of reporting of their school related attacks. (US would probably be at the top and xxxxxx would be at the bottom).

OOOORRrrrr we could add a column to this list giving our best estimate of how honest each country is about its statistics.

The point is: If all you have are bad statistics, you still report them. But, you sure better label them as bad, and it's sure professional to provide whatever data you do have (like whether or not you trust the source, and how much they have probably skewed the published figures).Aaaronsmith (talk) 16:22, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

It could be organized better perhaps by country but I don't expect to have the time to do it soon. I sugest you discuss it with those who regularly contribute to this page and perhaps you can work something out and help reorganize it. Good luck and thanks for your contributions Zacherystaylor (talk) 18:34, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

See above: I consider this list (like most in Wikipedia w a political bent) to be a politically correct attempt by someone to expose somebody. Bluntly, this list should be Afd along w a lot of similar lists on Wiki. Just by playing w the statistics and ignoring bad data/incomplete data/skewed data or even by quietly accepting some country's self serving propogands statistics, I can make any country in the world look like hell on earth. And also make myself legitimately open to accurate criticism for my results. Although, by some measure, my methods will be above reproach.

When it's that squirrely (I hope our non american or non english speakers understand that metaphor) you go AfD. It CAN'T be saved.Aaaronsmith (talk) 20:05, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

Negligence and deleting undisirerable but accurate and notable facts are also political bias. If you want it to be less bias do some research and add other school violence incidences from other countries. Pretending these things aren't happening wont make them go away quite the opposite. Good day Zacherystaylor (talk) 13:45, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

I don't know how y'all missed it....but the Columbine shootings have been omitted from the list. Just an FYI. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 168.16.132.208 (talk) 11:38, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

Preventing School Violence

I have previously added a link to Preventing School Violence, it was rejected as not apropiate for this article. I fail to see how Preventing School Violence could be inapropiate so if there is no further objection I'll put the link back in the see also section. Good day Zacherystaylor (talk) 18:21, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

I have added it back since there has been no objections. Cheers Zacherystaylor (talk) 17:02, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

I updated your last link. (the 2009-2009 one went to the 2007-2008 page)--Guerillero (talk) 20:25, 11 November 2009 (UTC)

Attack is a real bad choice of words. Let's come up w something better.

We do not have one single rape that does not also include lethal violence. We have not included one single (of the millions?) of "punch outs". Our definition of attack is entirely too vague and we don't explain that in the header.Aaaronsmith (talk) 16:40, 6 November 2009 (UTC)