Talk:List of estimated best-selling Italian music artists

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Disputed[edit]

Let me cite Harout72's WP:third opinion on Mina's total sales score: Highly prestigious news services in the U.S. such as CNN for example, have a history of publishing inflated sales figures for U.S. based artists also, including Michael Jackson's 750 million. That doesn't mean Jackson has achieved that sales figure. 95% of the time, the news agencies publish sales figures given to them by artists' record companies. The news agencies rarely do the research on sales figures themselves. In the case of Mina, I'd avoid including the 150 million records, because Italian music market has never been among the biggest music markets, meaning it could never have generated 150 million records for one of their artists, regardless how high the sales were for Mina in the '60s, '70s (see my comment also at Talk:List_of_best-selling_music_artists/Archive_23#Mina). I think this applies for this list of inflated sales figures as a whole, as piling them up does not add any credibility to them. Now if user Music&Co decides to continue ignoring the third opinion, I will have no other option than to go to the Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard which I don't think any of us will be happy about. --Jaan Pärn (talk) 08:29, 11 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Datas on the sales in Italy, are discontinuous during the years and pert long time in Italy informations of sales was submitted to the respects of the most important newspaper, national tvs and music magazines . This is a page of esteemed sales records in Italy, with the Italian methods of esteemed sales, not a voice on the certified sales with the American methods of certification. for that another page exists. This is a voice dedicated to the Italian music, with Italian criterions of evaluation and that they have as sources the Italian most authoritative mass media. This is a dispute that not centered on the matter. Let's understand us: esteemed of sales and certified sales are two different things; American methodology of certifications (for example "nielsen" and "riaa") and italian survey of esteemed sales (for example "doxa" and "rai") are two different things. Then it is a discussion on two levels different completions. hi. --Music&Co (talk) 13:02, 11 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Please justify the validity of putting the article in an Encyclopedia and rewrite the content with a neutral POV. if no validity and neutrality is not justified, the article will be removed in the next 7 days. Ankaraman (talk) 17:12, 15 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Contested deletion[edit]

This page is not unambiguously promotional, because... (your reason here) --Music&Co (talk) 18:20, 15 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I don't believe it is promotional or ambiguous, because it brings the data sent forth by the most authoritative Italian sources: radios and televisions of state (RAI, MEDIASET, Radio Italia, MTV Italia), national newspapers (Il Gornale, Il Corriere della Sera, Il Messaggero, La Repubblica, La Stampa) and more important italian music magazines (Musica e Dischi, Ciao 2001, TV Sorrisi e Canzoni) that takes back their sales'ses esteemed of records from statistic institutes as DOXA, RAI ISTITUTE or other specialistic surveys. The data and the certifications of the Anglo-American model, in Italy they have departed only since 1995 with the creation of the FIMI. Up to 1990 the sales and the certifications in Italy were assigned in base to the Esteem of the on you quote sources. From 1990 to 1995 nobody has not been issued some datum, that has been now only make public thanks to HIT PARADE ITALIA.

To cancel these data with the sales'ses esteemed, means to cancel the history of the Italian music.

(Another reason for which don't find that the page is promotional is that to me, that have written this page halves these artists don't like to me!)

And then another reason not to cancel is the appointment put by me and by all the consumers that have contributed showing their interest. Thanks for yours attention. --Music&Co (talk) 18:20, 15 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

If this is true then you have several days to cite articles where your 'most authoritative Italian sources' actually reveal their methods and material, not merely come up with a sales figure. --Jaan Pärn (talk) 18:38, 15 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

For exampe this source by Corriere della Sera explain like RAI now reports data by CIRM (STATISTIC ISTITUTE) and Mediaset (ex Fininvest) reports data by Doxa (STATISTIC ISTITUTE)[1], this article from officil website report the official italian chart according TV Sorrisi e Canzoni[2], thess article by Rockol (an other important music magazine) reports that "Musica e Dischi"'s esteem of sales are affided to Statistic Data of AFI (Associazione Fonografici Italiani)[3] and [4],ecc.. Now I could still go on, but it would be too much long. As I said it is not a promotional article, because the authoritative sources bring data furnished from these statistic institutes or from the surveys effected by the same sources. To make a storiographic search on the methodologies used by every source for every artist now would be too much long, however to require would mean it to my notice to devalue the professionalism and the middle truthfulness of the most important national mass media in Italy. --Music&Co (talk) 19:27, 15 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I can only repeat: please cite numbers from articles with at least a hint of the counting method. Anything else is just guesswork. --Jaan Pärn (talk) 15:43, 16 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

For example... HIT PARADE ITALIA ESTEEMED SALES: [5] RAI ERI MUSIC MAGAZINE (RAI ISTITUTE): [6] SIAE ASSOCIATION: [7] DOXA ISTITUTE: [8] CIRM ISTITUTE: [9] [10] FIMI FEDERATION: [11] AFI FEDERATION: [12] MUSICA E DISCHI MAGAZINE: [13] RICERCHEDIMERCATO ISTITUTE: [14] TV SORRISI E CANZONI MAGAZINE:[15] RADIO ITALIA: [16][17] I think that notes references methodological I have sufficiently quoted of it, and I could go on to the endless one.. in every way, to ask references to the methodology of esteem is all right, but attention not to do so that a trial becomes in which is accused because a different methodology is used by the American model (Billboard has existed around since 1800 with certain data, Fimi it has existed since 1995, before the data were sales esteemed from Rai,Radio Italia,Musica e Dischi, Sorrisi e Canzoni, National Newspaper, ecc..). Italian situation was this, these are not suppositions, while to insist in the intent to devalue all of this becomes incorrect and discriminatory --Music&Co (talk) 19:41, 16 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

These are not the articles that claim sales numbers. --Jaan Pärn (talk) 19:57, 19 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

if it doesn't satisfy you read that these nationals mass medias are officially submitted to these nationals statistic study centers and their methodologies, and for you it is not enough, you do you a music storiographyc research for more than one hundred music artists. This your has become a pure confrontation to put aside. Bye. --Music&Co (talk) 16:18, 21 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ http://archiviostorico.corriere.it/1994/marzo/19/Cirm_con_Rai_Doxa_con_co_8_9403191226.shtml
  2. ^ http://www.sorrisi.com/category/classifiche/
  3. ^ http://www.rockol.it/news-44496/Musica-e-Dischi-insiste-le-'charts'-FIMI-Nielsen-sono-fallate
  4. ^ http://www.rockol.it/news-63148/Guerra-di-charts-AFI-e-Musica-e-Dischi-in-alternativa-a-FIMI-Nielsen
  5. ^ http://www.hitparadeitalia.it/classifiche/metodol.htm
  6. ^ http://www.eri.rai.it/rivista_musicale.aspx
  7. ^ http://www.siae.it/Musica.asp?click_level=0200.0800&link_page=Musica_Rapporto.htm
  8. ^ http://www.doxa.it/Soluzioni/Doxabus
  9. ^ http://www.clubpmi.it/management/ricerche_mercato.htm
  10. ^ http://www.istituto-cirm.com/
  11. ^ http://www.fimi.it/gfk_notametodologica.php
  12. ^ http://www.afi.mi.it/storia.html
  13. ^ http://www.musicaedischi.it/chisiamo.php
  14. ^ http://www.ricerchedimercato.it/articles.php?lng=it&pg=349
  15. ^ http://www.sorrisi.com/2012/10/14/radio-di-malika-e-negramaro-le-canzoni-piu-trasmesse-robbie-williams-primo-tra-gli-internazionali/
  16. ^ http://www.radioitalia.it/chisiamo/index.php
  17. ^ http://www.radioitalia.it/artista/index.php

"Esteemed"?[edit]

Should this perhaps be 'estimated'? If it is 'esteemed', then by whom are they esteemed? Then again, are 'estimated' sales worthy of inclusion in an encyclopaedia? Peridon (talk) 19:01, 15 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

considering the fact that the certified data of market with a certain continuity in Italy start only beginning from 1995 with the FIMI, or the Italian music is considered to depart only from that date, or we considers the whole musical history of this nation in its discontinuity, that is expressed with the sales esteemed by institutes of search that divulge through the greatest national newspapers, tvs and radios. For this particularity of the case I consider that an encyclopedic page deserves with the artists classified for respects of sale sent forth by the national launchings mass medias. --Music&Co (talk) 19:37, 15 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I'm querying the translation that gives 'esteemed' - which in English refers to something being valued or respected. Sales that have not actually been counted one by one are 'estimated' - in other words a guess based on information considered to be fairly reliable. 'Esteemed' is rare nowadays in British and American English (but is found in Indian English rather more). Peridon (talk) 19:50, 15 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

You can excuses my bad English, I speak Italian and it is difficult for me to traslate. In Italy the word Esteemed intends the sales valued by the sum of the sales of album, single, 33giri, 45giri, 78giri and all the other musical publications produced in the career of these artists, the greatest part of which they have careers behind 30, 40,50 60 years, to Italy and the foreign countries. You for instance take Modugno-Nel Blu dipinto of Blue, Mine-grande grande grande, Celentano-azzurro, Pavarotti-o sole mio, Dalla-Caruso, Carosone-tu Vuò Fa l'Americano, Patty Pravo-La bambola, and an infinity of other successes...if we had to submit us to the Anglo-American methodology gone only into effect in Italy beginning from 1995, million and million of records sold would be cancelled.. would be cancelled the history of the Italian music (what it represents an important part on the world musical scene). It still excuses for my bad way to express me in English --Music&Co (talk) 20:25, 15 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Probably i have make an grammatical error. You can change the word esteemed in estimated, in the title? thanks--Music&Co (talk) 20:30, 15 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

OK - do you mean stimato or pregiato? The total value of the sales (actually counted), or someone's guess about the total? Peridon (talk) 21:21, 15 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

In Italian STIMATO mean the total on the sum of certifications (FIMI, AFi, Career Disk), declared sales (Records Label, productors of artists, Press Angency), statistic surveys of institutes of study specialized (for example DOXA), searches and surveys effected by the RAI,MEDIASET,TV SORRISI E CANZONI, MUSICA E DISCHI, etc.. I hope to have been clear. In every case when these data of sale are expressed on newspapers, radio and character televisions national, they are enough reliable. unfortunately in italia the detailed sales and you check according to the American model they have departed only since 1995, therefore unfortunately on the history musical precedent must be founded us on the "STIME" (in Italian language), less precise but not less truthful. Hi :)--Music&Co (talk) 09:45, 16 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

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