Talk:Limbo of the Lost

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Fair use rationale for Image:Limboscreen1.jpg[edit]

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BetacommandBot 05:26, 16 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Fair use rationale for Image:Limboscreen2.jpg[edit]

Image:Limboscreen2.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

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If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot 05:26, 16 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Fair use rationale for Image:Limboscreen3.jpg[edit]

Image:Limboscreen3.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot 05:27, 16 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Fair use rationale for Image:Limboscreen4.jpg[edit]

Image:Limboscreen4.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot 05:27, 16 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Fair Use[edit]

Having said that, if the controversy is correct then the developers are going to be having trouble showing fair use too. Bamboo marimba (talk) 14:26, 12 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I usually don't add to non-sequetor type comments, but well played. LeilaniLad (talk) 15:16, 12 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
It would be epically ironic if they sued Wikipedia for the use of those images. Manic-pedant (talk) 20:10, 12 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Haha, I don't think they will get to see a computer ever again —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.57.132.205 (talk) 19:39, 13 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

MEME[edit]

seeing as this is what this game is swiftly becoming shall we mention the meme qualities of it? there is one website even holding a competition to make the best background. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.144.185.60 (talk) 12:27, 14 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think we should. Its all part of the reaction to the event, and at least some mention of it is deserved. I don't know how much detail to go into though. Perhaps a brief mention is best, and we should wait and see what happens. 92.21.149.32 (talk) 15:59, 19 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hoax / Viral marketing[edit]

There is plenty of murmuring that this may all be a hoax / viral marketing. As of this writing, no person partaking in forum discussions on this saga has received a copy of the game. The publisher issuing statements and webstores de-listing the game could be seen as evidence against the idea that this is all a hoax. Regardless, the search for further sources appears to have become something of a passtime for many. ZeBoxx (talk) 15:17, 14 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Well, there is now a claim by someone in the neogaf.com forum thread that a copy has been delivered in the post. Fcw (talk) 19:18, 16 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Gamespot seems to be down right now (!?!) - but this is the quote they published from the dev team at Majestic:
"In response to the shocking notification that some alleged unauthorized copyrighted materials submitted by sources external to the development team have been found within the PC game Limbo of the Lost, we (the development team) have given our consent and full cooperation to both publishers who are recalling all units from all territories immediately.
Please be assured that we do not condone in anyway the use of unauthorized copyrighted materials and if we had been made aware earlier, we would of course have ceased development of the product and rectified the issue prior to the publication process.
To the best of our knowledge no one at Majestic, [European publisher] G2Games or [North American publisher Tri Synergy, Inc.] knew about this infringement and knowingly played any part in it.
We can only apologise to all regarding this issue, as a team we are shocked and mortified regarding these events and we continue to work with said publishers in order to rectify the issue."
So who are they saying did it? "sources external to the development team" ? I guess they are saying that they outsourced the painting of the 240 background shots...it's possible, they are a very small team.
Incidentally - you can download all 240 background shots from the game here: http://files.filefront.com/Limbo+of+the+Lost+Backgrosrar/;10729116;/fileinfo.html
SteveBaker (talk) 14:01, 24 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Is it worth mentioning the following from JA interview with Bovis?
"Tim Croucher (UK) - Researcher and assistant vocalist, game designer/playtester.
I met Tim right at the beginning of the project, we were both adventure game fans and decided to make an adventure game of our own – Limbo of the Lost was born.
Laurence Francis (UK) – Puzzles, Lead vocalist and assistant game designer/Musician.
Laurence joined the team when we were starting the Amiga version and has been a strong member ever since. Laurence is the voice of the main character – Benjamin Spooner Briggs as well as other characters in LIMBO.
Marko "Gravehill" Hautamäki (Germany) – Level-Atmosphere Musician.
I got to know Marko from a forum I was on and he was looking to work on a game project. I heard some of his work and was suitably impressed. To date he has done more than 13 musical pieces for the game. Marko is the newest team member.
Lisa Highsted (UK) – Contracts and Support
Lisa sorts out contract negotiations / publishers, she joined the team on the PC version of the game. She also play-tests and reviews content on a regular basis.
Heather Banks (UK) – Playtester & Support
Heather helps out on playtesting the game, general development feedback and development support. She too joined the team on the PC version
Myself - Steve Bovis (UK) - Creative/Project Director
That then leaves me, my job is to put the game together and create all the visuals, coding, sounds, models, marketing and basically make the game flow and work. As well as manage and try to motivate the team. A job that is hard enough at the best of times!
As you can see we are a small team and with that comes pluses and minuses, the plus is that development costs are low and we have 100% creative decision. The negative is the time it takes to create game content with such a small team."
There doesn't seem to be any mention of outsourcing. --Paramnesia (talk) 17:59, 25 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Indeed - it seems rather unlikely. Bovis has repeatedly claimed that he did most of the actual work ("my job is to [...] create all the visuals, coding, sounds, models"). It's also unlikely that the same outsourcer would have been doing background art AND audio AND character animation - and we know that all three of those things were plagiarised so at least some degree. (Note that there have been claims that the character animation came from the demo package of the tools software Magestic have been using). So it's rather hard to believe Bovis' story. However, I don't think it's appropriate to start making claims of this sort in the article itself while there are lawsuits about to be flung around. Wikipedia's restrictions on writing articles about living persons is pretty strict. SteveBaker (talk) 20:34, 25 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Citations[edit]

I have added several [citation needed] tags for items for which I don't recall any source. I'm putting together a comparison table see below), and although I have sources for many of the allegations - including screenshots / etc. - there are others that are iffy and/or I can find no source for. Could others jump in and add source citations where appropriate? ZeBoxx (talk) 14:06, 14 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The following lists (alleged) infringements:



So is this amiga version a Joke or what? Does Limbo of the Lost even have an Amiga port?
Yes, it was the original; it was never actually published, however ZeBoxx (talk) 15:53, 19 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]


ZeBoxx (talk) 15:17, 14 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Great conclusion. I'm following the whole discussion on plagiarism but couldn't find references for Crysis and Silent Hill either. - Jack's Revenge (talk) 15:40, 14 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
And let me add "thank you". :) - Jack's Revenge (talk) 15:40, 14 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks - found a reference for 'Crysis' - it's actually a CryEngine2 Tech Demo vid from 2005. The rest I haven't spotted anywhere yet, and web searching is becoming more and more difficult with every blog and its dog copying eachother verbatim (thus including things without reference). ZeBoxx (talk) 18:06, 14 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Found a Silent Hill 4 reference. You'd think they'd pick a better game to rip off. dethtoll (talk) 03:13, 17 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I think it's not the same train. If you look at the rust on the train and the style of the benches on the left side you can see they're different. To me it looks more like they're from UT. - Jack's Revenge (talk) 10:46, 17 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, that's the thing - on the Neogaf forums I found the mention of Silent Hill, which afterwards somebody said that it looked more like -assets- from Unreal. The subway train textures certainly match up perfectly, and the rails look suspiciously copied, but because of the vastly different angle of the Unreal shot, I thought that perhaps the environment could still have been Silent Hill 4. However, after viewing that video, I'm inclined to think that is not the case. LotL has its walls bricked, SH4 is plain grey. SH4 has a rusted line at the edge of the platform, LotL does not. LotL's benches are curved, SH4's are cornered. I'm just not convinced, but I'll also maintain that as far as the environment goes, I've not seen an Unreal or other game shot that would show the LotL environment to be copied from it, either. ZeBoxx (talk) 17:34, 17 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Doesn't this count as original research? 204.153.16.62 (talk) 20:55, 18 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Possibly, yes. Note that this is all in the discussion page, rather than the main article, for a reason; unless the companies responsible actually come out with a statement, any and all of this is 'original research' to some extent. The problem with 'original research' has always been that -all- research is original research; if I were to post a particular claim in a wiki topic, got slapped with 'original research', all I would have to do is post the claim in more detail on a mainstream website and then cite it. As it is, all-but-one (arguably) of the references in the table above are from users on Forums stating their claims. Where possible, comparison material is provided so that one does not have to rely 100% on the word of those users, but can also perform further investigation themselves. Although material lending weight to the claims *may* be fabricated, it would be easy to debunk this. To expand on the all-but-one; the 'amiga version' chart was created by myself, but only after the original finding from another neogaf forum member pointing out the similarity in the lines. If that makes the remainder of that chart, or table, 'original research', so be it; it doesn't, however, decrease the validity of it - counterclaims, if any, would. This in itself should, in my humble opinion, be enough to leave the information intact until such a time that another, credible, source were to post comparisons which could then be linked to instead, or the information would qualify for promotion to the article body. For what it's worth, I do have a chart of side-by-side comparisons myself but I'd hate to see the traffic; especially after Slashdot just linked to this article :) ZeBoxx (talk) 21:07, 18 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Original comparisons welcome at lotl.wikia.com :D 76.175.32.147 (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 11:20, 19 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Can we format the list of sourced games in an easier to read format. Maybe a bulleted list?--Theeldest (talk) 00:52, 19 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
We can certainly try - can always revert if needed
Great work compiling all of these instances of plagiarism, it must have been pretty tedious compiling all of these!. 99% of the instances you cited are unequivocal slam dunks. However, I don't see it with the Black and White example. The only similarity is its a hand. Point and click adventure games have had similar mechanisms for a long time. The hand doesn't look the same either- I think it should, at best, be moved to the disputed section. Personally, I wouldn't keep it on the list (or in the Wiki article) at all because it's a little out of place among the true blatant rip-offs you've cited but its up to you. Keep up the good work as I'm sure that list will get longer! Cremasters (talk) 10:38, 22 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]


I noticed you have no references for Enclave, here are a couple

Valacan (talk) 18:35, 24 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

wat[edit]

"Other scenes appear to be taken from live action films"... Since when are movies shot LIVE? --84.250.188.136 (talk) 18:10, 19 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

See: Live Action for an explanation of why it's called "Live Action films". That said, it's likely that a large portion of the actual shots -were- in fact mostly computer-generated (unless there's a tunnel to hell somewhere that I missed). All the same, as long as the majority of the movie is "Live Action" then a given shot or segment from that movie is still a shot or segment from a live action movie. ZeBoxx (talk) 19:18, 19 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Also see Misnomer. If this isn't in the "Older name retained" section (another example, we still use "steamrollers" although they haven't been steam-powered for decades), it should be added. -- 92.40.119.100 (talk) 21:52, 10 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

List of games needs more sources[edit]

The list of games that Limbo apparently stole from needs more sourcing than it currently has. Especially when you consider that this is an ongoing issue. I can see some problems arising if we allow people to randomly include a game without further support for what was stolen. Don't know what sources are available beyond the major gaming news outlets...but I think unless there are sources the list needs to be removed (and replaced with a simple description of the overall issue with links to appropriate sources). -- TRTX T / C 12:34, 26 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

New Enclave Plagarism[edit]

I was the one who added Enclave as a game it took from, but submitted no proof. That's because my antivirus wont let me start the game (thinks the copy protection is a virus) so I cant get screenshots.

If anyone is interested, here are the Limbo shots in question:

http://ft.mirror.waffleimages.com/files/b1/b141ade5bb20e85d76fd89bca67a4f5365268684.png#via=salr

Pause this video at 4:33: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kt6vXZ8WUjg&feature=related

That's example #1


Another one: http://waffleimages.nwpshost.com/files/c2/c2125dc0ad8166e4e816bb7d4062485cc968df64.png#via=salr

This part of Limbo is taken exactly from the level "The Great Wall" in Enclave, it's the room above the gate to the town. If anyone has the game they can get a shot of that room for a comparison —Preceding unsigned comment added by Stuffums (talk • contribs) 20:12, 14 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]


Book plagiarism ?[edit]

Sorry to put only this fact (and for my language, not my natural language, I' m french) but for what I've understood of the plot of this game, the story tells about 2 anthropomorphic divinities "fighting" some sort of cosmic game in which mortal are peons : the "Fate" and the "Destiny". Quite disturbing I first thought, fate and destiny being quite synonymous to me. But then it made me remember of the Terry Pratchett's "Discworld" universe and specially of the first book "the colour of magic" in which 2 anthropomorphic divinities fight in a game in which mortal are peons : "the Lady" ("goddess" of the statistically improbable and almost impossible") and "the Fate" ("god" of the inevitability). I' ve not played the game yet, but for what I' ve understood, the game plot is quite similar to the book story (also in the scene background and finality, 2 entities in a room standing over a boardgame representing a smaller version of the world whith all the details, arguing about fatality and free will and watching event in which they interfere from far away) so I would like to ask you what you think ? Could the developpers have plagiarized some books too ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.113.152.50 (talk) 06:15, 4 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

What you've described (mortal life being a game played by the gods) is a fairly common image in storytelling. Pratchett's version is by far the best-known one, but it's hardly the only one. --Carnildo (talk) 09:22, 4 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Was this plagiarism "controversial"?[edit]

User:124.191.139.167 believes that the plagiarism in LotL was "controversial" - and therefore re-cats the article from Category:Plagiarism to Category:Plagiarism controversies (which I have more than once reverted). I don't see why this was a "controversy" - nobody doubted that it was plagiarism. Wiktionary says that the word "controversy" means "a debate or discussion of opposing opinions". So for a plagiarism incident to be "controversial", there would have to be a bunch of people saying that it's not plagiarism and a bunch saying that it is. Since absolutely everyone agreed that the plagiarism was self-evident, and not one person denied it - there is no evidence of such controversy - it does not belong in that category. Since plagiarism (once exposed) is typically hard to deny - it's only very rarely controversial. SteveBaker (talk) 19:54, 5 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Most blatant plagiarism in a game ever. Not a controversy at all. Jarkeld (talk) 20:43, 5 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

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Sources[edit]

Possible code plagiarism?[edit]

In the development section an interview with Bovis cited which claims he learned how code. However if you look at his over 400 posts on the Winter Mute forum you can clearly see that he didn't even understand the basics. He repeatedly asks how write basic code, practically relying on the goodwill of the community to get the game coded. Is this worth mentioning somehow?

http://forum.dead-code.org/index.php?PHPSESSID=baedd9b7e0dc9304e57b028a07b74322&action=profile;area=showposts;u=157 61.12.248.187 (talk) 03:51, 23 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

North American release date source?[edit]

The article states that the North American version came out on June 2nd, but I can't find the source of this information. Is there a credible source? 185.218.158.34 (talk) 10:06, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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