Talk:Life Begins at Forty

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Requested move 4 April 2015[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Not done. Cited support that the article here is the original of the phrase, which is a reasonable reason for a primarytopic. No consensus to move. DMacks (talk) 15:54, 23 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

– The self-help book is no more significant or popular than any other of the same name. --Relisted. George Ho (talk) 05:53, 14 April 2015 (UTC) George Ho (talk) 03:27, 4 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Support per nom. Also Life Begins at 40 should be moved to Life Begins at 40 (song) and that repointed to the dab page -- 65.94.43.89 (talk) 04:19, 4 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Support and also Life Begins at 40 (John Lennon song) since the song by Jack Yellen and Ted Shapiro (recorded by Sophie Tucker in 1937) is the one which helped the book/phrase gain notability. In ictu oculi (talk) 06:12, 4 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- In ictu oculi... I love your work here BUT remember... you can't use Life Begins at 40 (John Lennon song) over Life Begins at 40 (song) unless and until there's another article on a song by that name, such as if an article existed for the Yellen/Shapiro song... this is according to our rule to use the least amount of disambig possible, which may or may not be a silly rule but is the operative rule. (Also FWIW the Yellen/Shapiro song (1937) is named after the book (1932) which was #1/#2 nonfiction book two years in a row before the song existed, so can't hardly have helped the book gain notability, rather vice versa if anything.) Herostratus (talk) 11:40, 4 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Whether there's another article isn't an issue, it's whether there's notable content. And there is another song 40/Forty is simply WP:SMALLDETAILS. In ictu oculi (talk) 11:50, 4 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Herostratus There can be nothing wrong with description. On rare occasion that Britannica presents music, they have titling such as: Rock Around the Clock, Recording by Haley; Thriller, Recording by Jackson and It Takes a Nation of Millions to Hold Us Back, Album by Public Enemy. Less is not necessarily more. Greg Kaye 12:58, 4 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Oh absolutely, I personally have no objection at all to Life Begins at 40 (John Lennon song). It's fine. All I'm saying is that, if I understand correctly, our rules require minimum disambiguation, so that if you make the title be Life Begins at 40 (John Lennon song) someone will likely eventually move it to Life Begins at 40 (song) (if no one has written an article on the Yellen/Shapiro song in the meantime), and so it's just a waste of energy, or else if you wanted to fight that it'd be even more wasted energy plus you'd probably lose the point since most people go with with rule. Better to try to change the rule instead and follow the rule in the meantime, just in the interest of minimizing needless discussions. Herostratus (talk) 13:18, 4 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Enhhhh... Nom is wrong that "The self-help book is no more significant or popular than any other of the same name". You've got a very famous and popular book (#1 nonfiction book one year, then #2 the following year, which I would guess is unusual) vs. a bunch of pretty obscure entities. And the book is more or less the source of the phrase (it may have been an existing saying, but not that notable) which the other entities are just aping. The John Lennon song was never even recorded for release by anyone (a demo was eventually released, because John Lennon). There are two other bluelinks which are pretty darn obscure (TV show, movie) and some other entries which don't even have bluelinks.

To my mind there's no question that book is the main topic, the single entry that most readers will be looking for. The question is, is it the primary topic, that is, does it overwhelm all the other uses of "Life begins at Forty/40" such that the great majority of readers are looking for the book... not sure about that... my guess is that's it's kind of the knife-edge here... The book is the more "scholarly" entry I guess in that it's a notable artifact of mid-TwenCen American popular culture... on the other hand the Yellen/Shapiro song deserves an article, further diluting the entities that use the phrase... I'm not gonna support or oppose, I can see the arguments for both and either way is OK with me. Herostratus (talk) 11:40, 4 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose as per Herostratus and per origin / time of origin of paradigm ~~shifting~~ challenging phrase. Greg Kaye 13:09, 4 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.