Talk:Leonard Cohen/Archive 2

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Archive 1

Archive 2

Semi-protected edit request on 14 November 2016

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Memoryal33454567 (talk) 15:12, 14 November 2016 (UTC)

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. JTP ^{(talk • contribs)} 15:32, 14 November 2016 (UTC)

Quote Is Way Too Long for Lead

Does anyone else dispute this incredibly long quote by Bruce Eder in the lead for this article? It is literally an entire paragraph in length, and Bruce Eder does not even appear to have a Wiki page. Search results on Google similarly yield very little. I'm amazed that this has slipped by…it appears to have been in the article long before Cohen's death as well. I'm going to be bold and remove it, I think. FuzzyGopher (talk) 23:22, 11 November 2016 (UTC)

I agree that long quotes are best removed from the lead, which should be just a summary of the article as a whole. However, I think the quote belongs somewhere in the article, perhaps in a section which details his musical impact/legacy? Rodericksilly (talk) 03:07, 12 November 2016 (UTC)

I have changed Themes section to Cultural impact and themes and restored this quote to the article, which was previously in the lead. Rodericksilly (talk) 03:38, 12 November 2016 (UTC)

Quite honestly though, who even is Bruce Eder? Just Googling him and there seems to be very little results other than one page...he appears to just be a minor writer for AllMusic, which itself doesn't appear to notable. Eder himself doesn't even have a Wikipedia article (and, quite honestly, I don't think he would make the cut for a new one). I am not sure why his long quote is in fact necessary to include, or why it must precede that even of the Academy of American Poets. Just my two cents. --FuzzyGopher (talk) 05:30, 13 November 2016 (UTC)

He's not a minor writer for AllMusic, I've read plenty of biographies and reviews written by him for the site, and since he wrote the main biography of Cohen for AllMusic, I would say it's relevant (AllMusic is a well known source and is used across many Wikipedia articles). Why should it precede the Academy of American Poets? I would suggest that might be because although Cohen was a poet, when he died most obituaries emphasized his contribution to music (and indeed many of the tributes to him were from other musicians influenced by him). Rodericksilly (talk) 10:08, 13 November 2016 (UTC)

Maybe I'm just not familiar with the man, but I find it odd that he doesn't have a Wikipedia article if he's the "main" quote for Cohen (he was even the second paragraph in the lead). I definitely second Cohen's music > poetry, but perhaps this quote, no matter who it is from, is far too long. FuzzyGopher (talk) 18:13, 14 November 2016 (UTC)

Date format

As a Canadian topic, I think it more appropriate to say "September 21" than "21 September" here. Likewise for the rest of the dates, of course. InedibleHulk (talk) 23:45, 11 November 2016 (UTC)

@EricEnfermero: It would be more appropriate to have dates in MDY notation, as it's more common on North American continent. The dates are being converted throughout the article. I personally don't care which notation is used, but it's not good to have different notations mixed, which is now the case. --My-wiki-photos (talk) 05:57, 12 November 2016 (UTC)

We did have it pretty close to consistent with my edit, though it was DMY and I did miss a couple of MDY dates in the body of this long article. After my edit was reverted, we went back to having inconsistency between the opening paragraph and the infobox. I'll help you achieve some consistency here with MDY dates. EricEnfermero (Talk) 06:02, 12 November 2016 (UTC)

Now all dates are in MDY notation. Please keep it that way. If you find any date different from MDY notation, please change it. Thanks. --My-wiki-photos (talk) 06:07, 12 November 2016 (UTC)

Good job! InedibleHulk (talk) 23:40, 12 November 2016 (UTC)

Thanks. In general, I'm no fan of DMY, but getting those references into MDY format was fairly tedious and I admit that it felt a little like a waste of time. As I was doing it, I wondered if the experience pointed to a strong argument to leave Canadian articles in their established formats. In the end, I'm just glad it's consistent, so hopefully future work on the article can focus on things that significantly strengthen the content. EricEnfermero (Talk) 23:59, 12 November 2016 (UTC)

Just to be clear, the Canadian contingent has repeatedly bogged down in a lack of consensus over date formatting — typically, Canadian government sources use DMY while Canadian media sources use MDY, so both sides of the argument can point to evidence that their preference is "standard". So the rule for Canada is, in fact, to just leave the article alone at whichever format was used by the first editor to add a full date to the article. In this case, that rule does mean that the dates have to be MDY. But the rule is definitely not, nor should it be, that every individual date in the article should be left at whatever format was used to add that particular date, even if that means the article flips back and forth between both formats in different places — we can use either format in Canadian-related articles, but each article has to be internally consistent within itself. Bearcat (talk) 18:29, 14 November 2016 (UTC)

It's also relevant that he moved to the U.S. in 1967, 50 years ago, which is where his primary notability as a songwriter and recording artist took place. Nor would it be wrong if the lead stated that he "was a Canadian and American singer, songwriter ..." --Light show (talk) 18:43, 14 November 2016 (UTC)

external link

I wonder why Andy Dingley thinks that the added link is 'EL spamming?' I think it's a pretty good (if very brief and very concise), up-to-date/ current, tribute to Cohen's work. Thanks, Ijon Tichy (talk) 17:31, 15 November 2016 (UTC)

Probably because I've read WP:EL. Andy Dingley (talk) 17:48, 15 November 2016 (UTC)

I don't see how the link violates WP:EL. Ijon Tichy (talk) 16:14, 16 November 2016 (UTC)

I agree with the removal. External links "should be kept minimal, meritable, and directly relevant to the article". The Real News page linked to is not especially good, the video starts with a good bit of advertising, and noting sets it positively apart from 100s of similar short tributes from TV stations around the world. — Sam Sailor 13:02, 6 December 2016 (UTC)

Bibliography

I have commenced a tidy-up of the Bibliography section using cite templates and tables for short stories, poems and/or book reviews. Capitalization and punctuation follow standard cataloguing rules in AACR2 and RDA, as much as Wikipedia templates allow it. ISBNs and other persistent identifiers, where available, are commented out, but still available for reference. Feel free to continue. Sunwin1960 (talk) 12:15, 24 May 2017 (UTC)

1966: When Judy Collins met Leonard Cohen

Thank you User:MFlet1 for your comments, revert on the Leonard Cohen page, but the year in question is definitely 1966 when Judy Collins met and introduced Cohen, definitely not 1977, as he would have needed no introduction by that date.

Here is the story, in Collins' own words:

Judy Collins and Leonard Cohen 1966

The source of the following text is the autobiography of Judy Collins. (Pages 145-147 of the hardbound edition or 144-146 of the paperback edition). Thanks to Rudi Schmid (Berkeley) for this information.

^[1]

"I met Leonard Cohen in 1966, when my Canadian friend Mary Martin arranged for us to meet. Leonard had been a published and successful writer and poet for many years, and had recently written his first songs. He came down from Canada one night, and I listened to his songs in my living room.

He sang Suzanne and Dress Rehearsal Rag that night, sitting on the couch, holding the guitar on his knee. I was moved by his singing voice, and by the songs, and by his whole presence. There was something very ethereal and at the same time earthy about his voice. When Leonard sang, I was entranced. I became immediately devoted to him, and we soon were friends.

I often saw Leonard when he came to New York. He would check into the Chelsea Hotel on Twenty-third Street, and we would have tea together and walk around Greenwich Village. I recorded Suzanne and Dress Rehearsal Rag on In My Life in 1966, and it went gold in 1967. With the records's success, Leonard became known as a songwriter.

I suggested he make his debut and sing in public, but he was terribly shy.I knew once he got over his fear, he would be powerful on stage. I was going to appear at a concert for Sane against the Vietnam War at Town Hall, on April 30, 1967. I asked Leonard if he would sing Suzanne there.

"I can't do it, Judy, I would die from embarrassment."

"Leonard, you are a great writer and a fine singer, people want to hear you." He finally agreed, reluctantly.

When I introduced him, he walked onto the stage hesitantly, his guitar slung across his hips, and from the wings I could see his legs shaking inside his trousers. He began Suzanne, with the hushed audience leaning forward in their seats; he got halfway through the first verse and stopped.

"I can't go on," he said, and left the stage, while the audience clapped and shouted, calling for him to come back. "We love you, you're great!" Their voices followed him backstage, where he stood with his head on my shoulder, my arms around him.

"I can't do it, I can't go back." He smiled his handsome smile. He looked about ten years old. His mouth drew down at the sides, he started to untangle himself from his guitar strap. I stopped him, touching him on the shoulder.

"But you will," I said. He shook himself and drew his body up and put his shoulders back, smiled again, and walked back onto the stage. He finished Suzanne, and the audience went wild. He has been giving concerts ever since.

I have loved and recorded so many of his songs--Sisters of Mercy, Joan of Arc, Priests, Hey, That's No Way to Say Goodbye, Famous Blue Raincoat, The Story of Isaac, Suzanne, Take This Longing, and Dress Rehearsal Rag [she forgot Bird on the Wire]. His songs carried me through dark years like mantras or stones that you hold in your hand while the sun rises or the fire burns. They kept me centered as I stood in front of thousands of people, my eyes closed, my hands around the neck of a guitar, my voice singing his ethereal lyrics. The audience responded to his writing, the songs were like water to a person dying of thirst. They were songs for the spirit when our spirits were strained to the breaking point."

From Judy Collins: Trust your heart: An autobiography. Houghton Mifflin Co. Boston, 1987, ISBN 0-395-41285-4 (hardbound), no index. Paperback reprint: Fawcett Crest, New York, Feb. 1989, ISBN 0-449-21662-4 (paperbound).

"I think of great songwriters as Gods and Goddesses. Bringing me gifts, as surely tagged with my name as though they had been written especially for me. I hunt, searching for the best. Sometimes I get lucky. That year [1965] my friend Mary Martin introduced me to Leonard Cohen. He had written his first songs, and played me Suzanne and Dress Rehearsal Rag. The songs were stunning, and I recorded both.

Leonard, a published poet and novelist, was very shy and nervous about singing in public. He had a quiet, tucked-in voice. He said he wasn't a singer, but I knew he was. That fall I convinced him to go on stage at a benefit for WBAI [a New York City radio station]. He was petrified, but he tried. On stage he began to sing Suzanne, stopped in the middle, looked out at the audience, and walked into the wings. I got him to return, with me, and we sang the song together.

Leonard has become in later years one of the great performers, an intelligent, poignant artist. I am always honored that I was there to sing his songs first. Altogether in the Elektra years [on albums released 1966-76] I recorded ten songs, among them Priests, Sisters of Mercy, Blue Raincoat, and Bird on a Wire. I am mad about Leonard's writing (from pages 8-9).

Later on page 9: One night over dinner in New York after In My Life [in Nov. 1966, the first Collins album with covers of Suzanne and Dress rehearsal rag] came out, Leonard told me I should be writing my own songs. Leonard is the type of guy when he tells you to do something, you at least try it." (Thanks to Rudi Schmid for the info)

Leonard Cohen's songs recorded by Judy Collins

"In my life" (11/1966) Suzanne Dress rehearsal rag "Wildflowers" (11/1967) Sisters of mercy Priests Hey, that's no way to say goodbye "Who knows where the time goes" (11/1968) Story of Isaac Bird on the wire

There is more but this establishes that the year should be 1967 and not 1977 that "Judy Collins introduced Leonard Cohen..."

Thank you.

Will Dockery (talk) 09:25, 22 October 2017 (UTC)

References

^ The source of the following text is the autobiography of Judy Collins. (Pages 145-147 of the hardbound edition or 144-146 of the paperback edition).

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"Kate McKinnon as Hillary Clinton"

I think it is in good taste and appropriate to mention Kate McKinnon's performance of parts of "Hallelujah" after Cohen's death, but I saw that performance and I do not think McKinnon was playing the role of Hillary at that particular moment. I think she was singing as herself. (It was wonderful.) Dratman (talk) 03:36, 18 November 2019 (UTC)

No mention of Joni Mitchell?

It's well known that Joni Mitchell and Leonard Cohen were lovers, and this seems to have been artistically significant for both of them.

They both wrote songs called 'Winter Lady' and there's a Joni song called 'The wizard of Is' which recalls Cohen's 'Suzanne'. It's not clear which song led to the other.

The Joni songs 'That song about the midway', 'The priest', 'The gallery' & 'Rainy night house' are all believed to be about Cohen.

Is this not worth including in the article?Dean1954 (talk) 11:49, 1 October 2019 (UTC)

Why don't you write that and try putting it in? See if it flows with the article. I think it might work. Dratman (talk) 03:38, 18 November 2019 (UTC)

[1] The source of the following text is the autobiography of Judy Collins. (Pages 145-147 of the hardbound edition or 144-146 of the paperback edition).

[1]