Talk:Kiradjieff brothers

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Political stuff[edit]

Tom and John Kiradjieff were named in a 2021 US House of Representatives proposed resolution honoring Macedonian American contributions to the United States.[1]

This proposed in the Congress non binding political resolution contains untrustworthy from historical perspective allegations such as: there is evidence that the earliest Macedonian presence in the continental United States arrived on or around the year 1492. This only shows a serious lack of historical culture, bordering on non-gramontity on the Macedonian issue. Among its cosponsors is the politician Claudia Tenney, who recently caused a scandal in Bulgaria with her anti-Bulgarian and pro-Macedonian position claiming: “Imposing sanctions on Bulgaria over its veto on starting negotiations for North Macedonia's accession to the European Union is a possible option." She also has claimed in an interview with "Voice of America" ​​in Macedonian, that the Bulgarian ambassador in the US has showed disrespect to the US Congress. I suggest that such acts of political correctness not be included in the text of the article. Jingiby (talk) 04:35, 19 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
We aren't discussing any part of the resolution except the explicit mention of the Kiradjieff brothers. This statement would belong in a "Legacy" section, though it would be a very short section.
This "political correctness" thing - no one understood it at Talk:Cincinnati chili and it still doesn't make any sense. This is simply pointing out that the Kiradjieffs have been celebrated in a recent Congressional resolution. --Local hero talk 16:38, 19 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
This is a political project proposed by several people. Jingiby (talk) 16:45, 19 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Not sure how you've deduced that. In any case, why should this statement, as it appeared in the article, no longer be included as it directly relates to the legacy of the Kiradjieff brothers? --Local hero talk 20:46, 19 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Biased and controversial political proposal, still not adopted. Jingiby (talk) 04:08, 20 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Is this based on your opinion or based on a WP policy? The proposal is not controversial by the way because there is no controversy. --Local hero talk 04:52, 21 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I strongly disagree. However, I suggest we wait. If this proposal will be adopted by the Congress, then let's return the text into the article. If no, let's it remains here. Jingiby (talk) 05:05, 21 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I fail to see why it's not notable at this point. There isn't a ton of coverage about the Kiradjieff brothers, especially as far as their legacy. Which policy would suggest we do not include it? --Local hero talk 05:08, 21 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
A draft is nonnotable indeed, and there is no resolution at this point. If and when voted by the House of Representatives, then it would be another matter. Apcbg (talk) 08:58, 21 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Local hero, me, Extratall and Apcbg have insisted the Brothers were Macedonian Bulgarians from the Ottoman Empire. They were born in the Ottoman empire and emigrated via Bulgaria to the US. They were not from Greek Macedonia and had no direct connection with Greece, except that their homeland remained there. They never came back there. They came back to Bulgaria. Also there isn't a single primary or tertiary source claiming they were ethnic Macedonians. The growth of a distinct Macedonian-American community have occurred since the late 1950s. The new immigrants came from Communist Yugoslavia, where after WW II they had been educated to believe that Macedonians are distinct from Bulgarians. Later these new immigrants have been instrumental in transmitting the feelings to some parts of the older pro-Bulgarian oriented immigrants from Macedonia, but that occurred during 1960s and especially during 1970s and 1980s. However the Kiradjieffs were long ago dead. Jingiby (talk) 05:25, 22 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
This is your preferred understanding of the situation. However, Macedonians have been recorded in censuses since at least 1910. And you should know this isn't a vote. You, Apcbg, and Extratall agreeing on something is the opposite of convincing. --Local hero talk 06:59, 22 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
There are plenty of sources that reject your personal premise such as South Slavs in Michigan. It is alarming, though unsurprising, that you reject viewpoints contrary to your own even in the face of ample sourcing. --Local hero talk 07:46, 22 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Should you have sources demonstrating that Kiradjieff brothers were recorded in censuses as Macedonians, please produce them. Apcbg (talk) 16:59, 22 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ "H.Res.741 - Expressing support for the designation of the month of September 2022 as "Macedonian American Heritage Month" and celebrating the Macedonian language, history, and culture of Macedonian Americans and their incredible contributions to the United States". Congress.gov. 22 October 2021. Retrieved 16 January 2022. Macedonian-American immigrants Tom and John Kiradjieff, using old Macedonian recipes passed down by their parents and grandparents, created Cincinnati chili

POV mess[edit]

“developed in 1922 by Tom Kiradjieff, a Macedonian immigrant”
“two Macedonian immigrant brothers named Kiradjieff opened a restaurant”
“Macedonian immigrant, Athanas “Tom” Kiradjieff, and his brother, John”
“the creation of Macedonian immigrant Athanas “Tom” Kiradjieff”
“created in the 1920s by Macedonian immigrant Tom Kiradjieff”
“In 1922, brothers Tom and John Kiradjieff, Macedonian immigrants”
“Macedonian immigrant Tom Athanas Kiradjieff settled in Cincinnati”
“Macedonian immigrant Tom (Athanas) Kiradjieff
“created in 1922 by Macedonian immigrants Athanas (“Tom”) and John Kiradjieff
“Macedonian-American immigrants Tom and John Kiradjieff, using old Macedonian recipes passed down by their parents and grandparents, created Cincinnati chili”
“Athanas Kiradjieff, a Macedonian immigrant, created Cincinnati chili”
Extremely detailed descriptions of the Kiradjieff brothers and their Macedonian background throughout the book.

Here are sources that contradict your viewpoint, @Jingiby:. It isn't for Wikipedia editors to decide their ethnicity, we use reliable sources. --Local hero talk 06:53, 22 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

As we have repeatedly commented, Macedonian emigrants means emigrants from the region of Macedonia as a whole, not ethnic Macedonians. Different ethnic groups have lived and still live in this region and they were/are called Macedonian too. We also commented that often the opinions among historians on certain topics differ and they should be compared in terms of their credibility. Now you may find below a dozens of sources describing the Brothers as Bulgarian:
Now we may reveal when a separate Macedonian identity arose, when it gained a popularity and when it was introduced in the diaspora in the US. We must also keep in mind when these brothers were born and when they died. They were born in the late 19th century and died around the middle of the 20th century. And finally we may find what reliable sources say about this issue. Not just opinions of some culinary experts or general opinions of non-specialists on the subject, but those of leading experts on the Macedonian issue, published in specialized literature, dedicated to this question:
  • Until the late nineteenth century both outside observers and those Bulgaro-Macedonians who had an ethnic consciousness believed that their group, which is now two separate nationalities, comprised a single people, the Bulgarians. Thus the reader should ignore references to ethnic Macedonians in the Middle Ages which appear in some modern works. In the Middle Ages and into the nineteenth century, the term ‘Macedonian’ was used entirely in reference to a geographical region. Anyone who lived within its confines, regardless of nationality could be called a Macedonian. Nevertheless, the absence of a national consciousness in the past is no grounds to reject the Macedonians as a nationality today. John Van Antwerp Fine, University of Michigan Press, 1991, ISBN 0472081497, pp. 36–37.
  • During the 20th century, Slavo-Macedonian national feeling has shifted. At the beginning of the 20th century, Slavic patriots in Macedonia felt a strong attachment to Macedonia as a multi-ethnic homeland. They imagined a Macedonian community uniting themselves with non-Slavic Macedonians... Most of these Macedonian Slavs also saw themselves as Bulgarians. By the middle of the 20th. century, however Macedonian patriots began to see Macedonian and Bulgarian loyalties as mutually exclusive. Regional Macedonian nationalism had become ethnic Macedonian nationalism. This transformation shows that the content of collective loyalties can shift. For more see: Alexander Maxwell, Slavic Macedonian Nationalism: From “Regional” to “Ethnic” in Region, Regional Identity and Regionalism in Southeastern Europe, Ethnologia Balkanica Series, Klaus Roth, Ulf Brunnbauer as editors, LIT Verlag Münster, 2010, pp. 127-154, ISBN 3825813878.
  • At the end of the World War I there were very few historians or ethnographers, who claimed that a separate Macedonian nation existed... Of those Macedonian Slavs who had developed then some sense of national identity, the majority probably considered themselves to be Bulgarians, although they were aware of differences between themselves and the inhabitants of Bulgaria... The question as of whether a Macedonian nation actually existed in the 1940s when a Communist Yugoslavia decided to recognize one is difficult to answer. Some observers argue that even at this time it was doubtful whether the Slavs from Macedonia considered themselves to be a nationality separate from the Bulgarians. Loring M. Danforth, The Macedonian conflict: ethnic nationalism in a transnational world, Princeton University Press, 1997, ISBN 0-691-04356-6, pp. 65–66.
  • "Yugoslav Communists recognized the existence of a Macedonian nationality during WWII to quiet fears of the Macedonian population that a communist Yugoslavia would continue to follow the former Yugoslav policy of forced Serbianization. Hence, for them to recognize the inhabitants of Macedonia as Bulgarians would be tantamount to admitting that they should be part of the Bulgarian state. For that the Yugoslav Communists were most anxious to mold Macedonian history to fit their conception of Macedonian consciousness. The treatment of Macedonian history in Communist Yugoslavia had the same primary goal as the creation of the Macedonian language: to de-Bulgarize the Macedonian Slavs and to create a separate national consciousness that would inspire identification with Yugoslavia." For more see: Stephen E. Palmer, Robert R. King, Yugoslav communism and the Macedonian question, Archon Books, 1971, ISBN 0208008217, Chapter 9: The encouragement of Macedonian culture.
  • "Nodoubt,the vast majority of the Macedonian peasants, being neither communists nor members of IMRO (United), had not been previously affected by the Macedonian national ideology. The British officials who attempted to tackle this issue in the 1940s noted the pro-Bulgarian sentiment of many peasants and pointed out that Macedonian nationhood rested ‘on rather shaky historical and philological foundations’ and, therefore, had to be constructed by the Macedonian leadership." Livanios, D. (2008), The Macedonian Question: Britain and the Southern Balkans 1939–1949.: Oxford University Press, ISBN 0191528722, p. 206.
  • "It is clear that even in the pre-1945 period a large segment of Macedonia's Slavs declared themselves to be "Macedonians," although it would be completely premature to assume that this label stood for a national, as opposed to a regional identity. The transformation of the regional into a national label was the consequence of the state - sponsored policies of cultural homogenization pursued by Greece and Serbia." Victor Roudometof, Collective Memory, National Identity, and Ethnic Conflict: Greece, Bulgaria, and the Macedonian Question. Greenwood Publishing Group, 2002, p. 109, ISBN 0275976483.
  • "In Yugoslav Macedonia the past was systematically falsified to conceal the fact that many prominent 'Macedonians' had supposed themselves to be Bulgarian, and generations of students were taught that "pseudo-history" of the 'Macedonian nation. The mass media and education system were the keys to this process of national acculturation, speaking to people in a language that they came to regard as their 'Macedonian' mother tongue, even it was perfectly understood in Sofia." For more see: L. Benson, Yugoslavia: A Concise History, Edition 2, Springer, 2003, ISBN 1403997209, p. 89.
  • "The most prominent non-Balkan scholars, who deal with the Macedonian diasporas, seem to be unanimous that until 1945, the majority of the Macedonian immigrants of Slavic origin identified themselves as Bulgarians and, more rarely, as Greeks. Victor Roudometoff acknowledges the ethnic identity of the early immigrants, pointing out that: "In the case of the Macedonian diasporas, there are three distinct groups holding out different images of Macedonia. These are the Greek Macedonians, the Bulgarian Macedonians, and the post-1945 ethnic Macedonians. The last group is by far the most recent addition to the list." The American anthropologist Loring Danforth, who became famous for his work on the identity conflict between the Greek and Macedonian diasporas in Australia, also confirms the observations of Roudometof." Chis Kostov, "The Case of Macedonian Immigrants in Toronto, 1900-1996", Peter Lang, 2010, ISBN 3034301960, p. 117.
  • "Immigrants from Macedonia came to the United States in significant numbers during the early years of the 20th century. Until World War II almost all of them thought of themselves as Bulgarians and identified themselves as Bulgarians or Macedonian Bulgarians. Recently, however, for some this has begun to change. Although there are still perhaps 50,000 Macedonians who identify themselves as Bulgarians or Macedonian Bulgarians, a group of Macedonian Americans who identify themselves specifically as Macedonians is beginning to emerge as a result of developments in their Balkan homelands." Thernstrom, Stephan; Orlov, Ann; Handlin, Oscar, eds. (1980). "Macedonians". Harvard Encyclopedia of American Ethnic Groups. Harvard University Press. pp. 690–694. ISBN 0674375122.
After describing the prevailing academic consensus on the issue, now some words on the primary sources for the Kiradzhieff brothers. No one describes them as ethnic Macedonians. Their contemporaries who know them personally, describe them and their family as Bulgarian. Their father was an activist of the Bulgarian Exarchate and one of the initiators for the establishment of a Bulgarian school in their hometown. He is described as a fanatical Bulgarian. Although there are no specific sources, it is appropriate to assume that by this situation, the brothers studied at the Bulgarian school. Moreover, one of them later became a cashier of the Bulgarian Church-School Municipality in Hrupishta. After the Balkan wars they moved to Bulgaria. They served in the Bulgarian army and fought with it during the First World War. From Bulgaria they moved to the US. They returned to Bulgaria to find wives, when there were no flights and traveling across the ocean was an adventure. The kept advertisements for their business are published in a Bulgarian newspaper and in Bulgarian language. Their last direct successor, Assen, who bears specific Bulgarian name, describes his parents in 2019, when he was in old age, as Bulgarians and Macedonia as part of Bulgaria. I repeat, there is not a single direct or indirect primary source that describes them as ethnic Macedonians. They lived in a time when the idea of ​​a Macedonian identity was not popular in the United States. These events unfold after their death. Until then, the vast majority of Macedonian emigrants there had Bulgarian identity. As the Harvard encyclopedia has mentioned at the eve of 1980s, there were tens of thousands of old Macedonian emigrants in the US, who had still stick to their Bulgarian identity. At that time, the brothers had been dead for 20 years. May you present at least one primary source to support the alternative theory you present. The claim that they were ethnic Macedonians is simply a political correctness. The opinion of the food expert Dann Woellert, that during the first half of 20th century they were identified as Bulgarians, but that ethnic designation is not correct, is an excellent example of that, which is just ridiculous. The political claims of a handful of US congressmen about the presence of Macedonians in America in the late 15th centuryр only confirm that many people write nonsense about things they do not understand.Jingiby (talk) 12:10, 22 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I'll remind you that this article is about the Kiradjieffs, anything else (the majority of your comment) can be disregarded. As stated in the previous section, other sources in addition to censuses confirm the existence of Macedonians in the US in the early 20th century.
The difference between you and I is that I am not trying to invalidate or conceal sources that may describe the brothers as Bulgarian. I'm not even demanding that we describe them as ethnic Macedonians in the lead sentence because I acknowledge some sources do describe them otherwise. You, on the other hand, while claiming to be neutral, have placed "Macedonian Bulgarians" in the lead matter-of-factly even though myriad sources contradict that. That is complete POV and you should revert yourself.
You claim that Macedonian could have meant many different things. However, most if not all of these sources I presented were written in the 21st century in which the term Macedonian refers to the ethnic group unless it is qualified by Greek or Bulgarian.
"although there are no specific sources, it is appropriate to assume that by this situation, the brothers studied at the Bulgarian school"
In what wiki world is it OK for editors to assume things?
Asen is not an exclusively Bulgarian name. Several prominent ethnic Macedonians have this name (see mk:Асен Групче or mk:Асен Симитчиев). In addition, you cannot seriously be pointing to the YouTube interview as a reference. The 90-year-old man couldn't even name the village his parents were from.
I thought you would be aware but: "Wikipedia articles usually rely on material from reliable secondary sources. Articles may make an analytic, evaluative, interpretive, or synthetic claim only if that has been published by a reliable secondary source." Secondary sources as I presented above are plenty sufficient for this article.
Can you drop your "political correctness" conspiracy theory? It doesn't make sense to anyone. Dan Woellert wrote, from what I've seen, the most comprehensive book about Cincinnati chili in existence and he affirms that the Kiradjieffs have been incorrectly referred to as Bulgarian and that they were indeed Slavic Macedonians.
So, again, I ask you to revert the "Macedonian Bulgarian" wording you added and to address the multiple other article issues below. --Local hero talk 18:48, 22 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, but your arguments are silly. Moreover many Macedonian Bulgarians named their children after Bulgarian tsars and khans in the past, as in both cases above. Otherwise, I agree with the other two editors who changed the leading section before me and I see no reason to return it to your version, which was done without arguments, simply reverting them. Jingiby (talk) 07:17, 23 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The problem here is that the sources that describe them as Macedonians do not elaborate much on its meaning, and are merely food books or magazines by authors who do not have an interest in messy Balkan identity issues. On the other hand Jingiby has listed some sources that, although they do not mention these brothers specifically, are focused on Balkan identity issues and explain that the meaning of the word "Macedonian" at those times was not entirely the same as it is today. Of particular interest is Cincinnati Magazine that is listed above as a source that the brothers were Macedonians. The same magazine says in another issue that "Athanas "Tom" Kiradjieff, Joe's father, was a Bulgarian born in Macedonia". Ktrimi991 (talk) 16:27, 23 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for chiming in @Ktrimi991:. Indeed, many of these sources are in food-related books/magazines, but that shouldn't be a surprise since these brothers are only notable for creating Cincinnati chili. Thus, the book with the greatest amount of information on the dish and the brothers behind it is written by a food expert (in it, he describes the brothers as Slavic Macedonians and not Bulgarians). You are also correct in noting that many of Jingiby's sources do not name the Kiradjieffs at all; I believe using sources that do not name the subjects of this article to make a determination on their ethnicity is WP:SYNTH. Just as you state, Cincinnati Magazine refers to them as Macedonian in one issue and Bulgarian in another. Given conflicting sources, why are we making a definitive determination in the lead sentence of the article that the brothers were "Macedonian Bulgarians"? --Local hero talk 20:34, 23 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I came across this article and thought to try to be of help. In case the disagreement continues, an RfC to attract more input by the wider community could be the solution. The issue at hand is what the sources mean with the word "Macedonian". This becomes murkier when one takes into account that food books and magazines are written by authors who have not specialized in Balkan identity issues, and from my experience, what such authors say about someone's ethnicity or ethnic background should be taken with a grain of salt. At the time when these brothers lived, the people of the region of Macedonia (as people in many other areas in the Balkans) mostly had fluid identities, and "Macedonian" could be used for someone who came from that region, regardless of their ethnic identification. The article in one of its notes says that "In a 2019 video-interview, the US Army veteran, and last owner of the Empress, Joe Kiradjieff has described his parents as Bulgarian and Macedonia as part of Bulgaria" referring to that video [1] (someone should find at what point in the video he says that, the video is too long to watch it all). From other sources and the article itself I read the the two brothers served the Bulgarian Army, another brother of them worked for some time for the Bulgarian Exarchate, and when they wanted to marry they went to Bulgaria to find wives. These actions seem to confirm the claim that the family identify as Bulgarian. IMO in this case the usage of the term "Macedonian" is in a regional rather than an ethnic context. In any case, as I said above, an RfC can be open and maybe other editors could be of more help. Ktrimi991 (talk) 21:35, 23 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Btw, the first sentence of the article should describe them as Americans as per WP:Nationality. The History section is the one that should mention their ethnic background. Ktrimi991 (talk) 23:51, 23 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Good point. I guess that makes this part of the discussion moot. I'll adjust the lead wording to reflect this policy. --Local hero talk 00:52, 25 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Other issues[edit]

  • Note #3: why are Bulgarian demographic statistics of Hrupista in 1900 needed on this article? If a reader wishes to find out more about Hrupista, we have an article on it. This note should be removed.
To clarify for the readers the demographic situation in the town when the brothers lived there. Jingiby (talk) 07:32, 23 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Why does that need clarification here? We have an article about Hrupista. Please keep this article focused on the Kiradjieffs. --Local hero talk 20:46, 23 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Reference #4 (Markov, Georgi): I’m not sure why this source can be used to support the assertion that the parents were Bulgarian. Markov was a revolutionary of the time and stated the father supported the Bulgarian national idea. This does not automatically make him a Bulgarian, for example Vlachs supported the idea.
Is this claim above a joke? Jingiby (talk) 07:34, 23 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Not a joke. Supporting an idea like this does not confirm ethnicity, please don't make assumptions. --Local hero talk 20:46, 23 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Reference #7 (Markov, Georgi): we should clarify that this is according to revolutionary Georgi Markov.
This is clear from the note below. Jingiby (talk) 07:34, 23 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Reference #10 (Fischler, Claude): I have to question the reliability of the quoted text given that there is an obvious error in the year in the next sentence: “In the 19205 he sold”.
I do not understand how a typographical error can affect the reliability of a source. Jingiby (talk) 07:37, 23 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Reference #12 (Thernstrom, Stephan): this source does not even name the Kiradjieffs. This source should be removed.
Harvard Encyclopedia of American Ethnic Groups to be removed? Another joke maybe. Jingiby (talk) 07:46, 23 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Again not a joke. What does this have to do with the Kiradjieffs directly? --Local hero talk 20:46, 23 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Reference #13 (Roudometof, Victor): can you provide the quote?
I have done this above. Jingiby (talk) 07:47, 23 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Reference #14 (Schultz, Patricia): this does not support the assertion it is tied to. Schultz describes Kiradjieff as a Macedonian Greek immigrant.
Exactly. Patricia Schultz describes Kiradjieff as a Macedonian Greek immigrant. Where is the problem? Jingiby (talk) 07:51, 23 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
You're using the reference to support that they were Bulgarian, correct? --Local hero talk 20:46, 23 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Notes 8 and 9: are these your own personal analyses?

Note 8 is clarifying the issue for the readers, because Dann Woelert didn't explain it. I guess as a food specialist he has no idea about these circumstances. Note 9 is based on WorldCat. WorldCat is the world's largest bibliographic database.Jingiby (talk) 07:59, 23 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

So Note 8 is Jingiby's personal commentary? That needs to go.
And finally, why is a majority of the content of this article in these Notes of yours? Why is there no mention in the article itself that so many authors describe them as Macedonian and not Bulgarian? --Local hero talk 06:57, 22 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The notes are to inform the readers of the article on some additional facts, which are important to its content. What is this per your opinion: According to other researchers they were Slavic Macedonians or simply Macedonians. This note is at the foot of the article, and Woelert's vision is explained. Jingiby (talk) 08:01, 23 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Why is this particular point hidden in the Notes, though? I had adjusted it to be within the main text but you reverted me because it was "not an improvement". --Local hero talk 20:46, 23 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The analogical points about the different views on their Bulgarian, or eventual Greek identity are hidden in the Notes too. The different views on their origin are considered in the Notes according to their relevance, and the leading one, i.e. the only one supported by primary, secondary and tertiary sources - on their Bulgarian identification, is left in the text. By the way I have found additional primary source confirming the Bulgarin national identification of their father which you questioned above, even though it was supported by another primary and a secondary source: Киряк Шкуртов, Искреността на младотурците в сп. Илюстрация Илинден, кн. 2, София, февруари 1934 год., стр. 7-8. (in Bulgarian) Here another IMARO revolutionary Kiryak Shkurtov has also claimed that Kiradjieffs' father was among the most distinguished Bulgarian leaders in Hrupishta. I will make some other clarifications. Apart from the fact that Tom Kiradjieff's son Joe identified his parents as Bulgarians in the 2019 interview, his cousins also gave unequivocal indications in this regard during his lifetime. The son of John Sr. - Eduard Kiradjieff wrote in 1962 his thesis for the University of Cincinnati, "Postwar Communization of Bulgaria." At the same time his brother John Kiradjieff Jr. visited Bulgaria. They never visited or wrote anything about Yugoslav or Greek Macedonia. Their fathers too. The claim of the anthropologist Timothy C. Lloyd who is a Senior Advisor for Partnerships for the American Folklore Society: "It should be noted that the Kiradjieffs, who are from Macedonia, consider themselves to be Bulgarian" done in the peer-reviewed journal Western Folklore in the article “The Cincinnati Chili Culinary Complex" is based on an interview with Joe Kiradjieff, taken in Cincinnati, Ohio on 16 August 1979. That means their sons also had, i.e. has (Joe is still alive) Bulgarian consciousness. Jingiby (talk) 04:47, 24 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Again, Joe couldn't even name his father's birth village so it's questionable how much of their heritage was passed on. His sister (Tom's daughter) was involved in a Presbyterian church, not a Bulgarian or a Macedonian one. The family is all but fully Americanized.
I'm going to quote you, Jingiby, from the Hristo Tatarchev talkpage: "historical scholarship is generally not: Any primary source, etc." This is just one instance of you dismissing primary sources, you've done so on many article discussions. Yet here, you are eager to present them. Seems like you only like primary sources when they suit your POV, otherwise they're no good. --Local hero talk 01:07, 25 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
User:Local hero, I don't think you were able to convince anyone here of your thesis. I do not see how we will reach a consensus and stop commenting for now. Since Wikipedia is not a forum, I agree with Ktrimi991 that an RfC could be the solution. Regards. PS. Per WP:RSHISTORY: A fact qualifies for illustration when a major scholarly text explicitly demonstrates a point by reference to a primary source, or quotes a primary source in demonstration of a major (as weighted) fact. In these circumstances, it may be legitimate to use the primary source noted, or an equivalent primary source, to illustrate the fact. First demonstrate the fact to the reader, citing the scholarly reliable source, then provide the primary source. Jingiby (talk) 03:51, 25 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

UMD and the Macedonian issue.[edit]

About the mentioning of the brothers as ethnic Macedonians, it is far from any historical reality. This is clearly at the request of the (ultra)-nationalist UMD. About the role of the UMD for promoting Macedonian ultranationalism see: Papavizas, George. (2012). FYROM: A source of Balkan instability. Mediterranean Quarterly. Duke University Press; Issue 2 (23); pp. 42-63; (46) - Instead of promoting peace, stability, and democracy in the Balkans, the Democratic Party for Macedonian National Unity (VMRO-DPMNE), with Nikola Gruevski as leader and prime minister of FYROM, has embarked on an effort to spread its propaganda tentacles to the outside world, especially to the United States and Canada, by supporting and promoting several ultra-nationalist organizations. The best known such organization is the United Macedonian Diaspora (UMD), headed by Metodija A. Koloski. Emboldened by the rush of thoughtless and politically motivated propaganda stunts, UMD methodically and ruthlessly displays a naked and well-financed and intransigent propaganda effort, the main target of which is Greece. On the occasion of this biased activity the branch of the MPO in Chicago began to send the book "UMD-Children of the Lie" to all US Congressmen and local parliaments in each US state. Jingiby (talk) 06:27, 19 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

After my suggestion not to fill the article with redundant information is rejected, then the unraveling of this unfortunate initiative of the UMD ultra-nationalists will let the readers know what exactly it is about.Jingiby (talk) 17:52, 19 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I suppose Empress Chili itself today must be ultra-nationalists as well because it does not attribute its founding to Macedonian Bulgarians.
Anyway, I think this Controversy section would be better suited at an article about the United Macedonian Diaspora itself. Unfortunately, that article was deleted. --Local hero talk 18:05, 19 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Repeating the entire discussion from the talk page in the article is unlikely to improve it. Rather, this entire new section should be removed from here. Jingiby (talk) 19:38, 19 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The sentence I added to the section is not explicitly stated in the article and it forms the basis of the controversy. As they are described as "Macedonians" in many sources, they are considered to have been Macedonian American immigrants by groups like UMD. --Local hero talk 22:21, 21 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
As is evident from the discussion above and from the sources in the article, they never had a Macedonian national identity, only a Bulgarian one. The fact that they are called Macedonian emigrants or Macedonians has no direct ethnic meaning. The very concept of the term Macedonian has different meanings as before, as well now. The specialized literature cited in the article very well explains that until 1960 in the USA there were almost no people with a national Macedonian identity. In fact, then the brothers were no longer among the living. To use the ultra-nationalist propaganda of UMD, which claims that any Macedonians discovered America before Columbus, in the article is ugly. It is not for nothing that the article about this organization has been deleted twice here. Jingiby (talk) 04:46, 22 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, some "specialized literature" contradicts your narrative (i.e. please read South Slavs in Michigan Daniel Cetinich, Michigan State University Press, not to mention census and immigration records from the early 20th century).
Back to the topic, the sentence I added to your section did not claim an ethnic meaning. Can you please refer me to the wiki policy on "ugliness"? Not sure what that is. What we have is the governor of one of the most populous states in America recognizing the Kiradjieffs for their contributions as Macedonian Americans and Ohioans. This is notable to their legacy. --Local hero talk 04:59, 22 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Look now, let's leave politics, fringe theories and nationalist lobbying out of the article. That some American politicians believe that the earth is flat, and others that the Macedonians, who were formed as a separate nation in the middle of the 20th century, discovered America in the late 15th century, has no place here. And the WP:Policy you are asking me is the most basic one: WP:COMMONSENSE. Jingiby (talk) 05:15, 22 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Which American politicians believe the Earth is flat? Where does it say anything in this declaration by the Ohio governor that Macedonians discovered America? I'll restate, this is directly related to the legacy of the brothers, that the governor of Ohio made this declaration that features them. --Local hero talk 14:56, 22 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Our discussion is rather philosophical and metaphorical. Otherwise, more concretely, an initiative of ultranationalists and lobbyists and subsequent decisions with political motivation cannot be reflected here as pure coin. This will cause the coverage of protests against such activities, and the article will look like a mess. Jingiby (talk) 07:04, 23 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
This is directly related to the legacy of the Kiradjieff brothers: the governor of Ohio made a declaration that features them prominently. --Local hero talk 14:48, 23 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Did he cite sources for Kiradjieff's ethnicity? Apcbg (talk) 17:13, 23 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Controversy[edit]

At the request of the found in 2004 nationalist United Macedonian Diaspora (UMD),[1] in 2021 the politician Brendan Boyle introduced in the House of Representatives a draft of a non-binding resolution with an official title: "Expressing support for the designation of the month of September 2022 as "Macedonian American Heritage Month".[2] The resolution has mentioned Kiradjieffs and other historical figures in the USA as Macedonians and insisted the first Macedonian immigrants reached the territory of today's United States even before Columbus discovered America.[3][4] That caused the critical reaction of the oldest organization of the Macedonian immigrants in North America, the Macedonian Patriotic Organization. It has sent an address to the US Congress on who Macedonian Bulgarians are, insisting the first Macedonian Slavic immigrants identified themselves as Bulgarians, at least until the middle of the 20th century.[5] For the same purpose, again at the initiative of the MPO, a petition to Congress has been prepared, insisting to suspend this resolution.[6] The Bulgarian ambassador to the USA, Georgi Panayotov confirmed there was an attempt to pass an incorrect resolution in the Congress, but resumed he will take measures on the matter.[7] On the occasion of UMD biased activity the branch of the MPO in Chicago began to send the book "UMD (United Macedonian Diaspora) children of the Lie" to all US Congressmen and local parliaments in each US state.[8] As result the resolution failed. Nevertheless, at the initiative of the same UMD the Kiradjieff brothers were named in September 2022 declaration by Ohio governor Mike DeWine honoring Macedonian Independence Day and Macedonian American contributions in Ohio.[9]

References

  1. ^ Instead of promoting peace, stability, and democracy in the Balkans, the Democratic Party for Macedonian National Unity (VMRO-DPMNE), with Nikola Gruevski as leader and prime minister of FYROM, has embarked on an effort to spread its propaganda tentacles to the outside world, especially to the United States and Canada, by supporting and promoting several ultra-nationalist organizations. The best known such organization is the United Macedonian Diaspora (UMD), headed by Metodija A. Koloski. Emboldened by the rush of thoughtless and politically motivated propaganda stunts, UMD methodically and ruthlessly displays a naked and well-financed and intransigent propaganda effort, the main target of which is Greece. For more see: Papavizas, George. (2012). FYROM: A source of Balkan instability. Mediterranean Quarterly. Duke University Press; Issue 2 (23); pp. 42-63; (46)
  2. ^ H.Res.741. Rep. Boyle, Brendan F. [D-PA-2] (Introduced 10/22/2021).
  3. ^ "USA: Macedonians discovered America before Columbus". Darik.News. 2022-02-04. Retrieved 2022-06-28.
  4. ^ US draft resolution: Macedonians set foot in America in 1492. Darik.News English, February 4, 2022.
  5. ^ Macedonian Patriotic Organizations with an address to US Congress on who Macedonian Bulgarians are. BGNES News Agency, 04.02.2022.
  6. ^ Спас Ташев, Македонските българи в Америка. Труд, 16.05.2022.
  7. ^ Голям скандал. Македонски номера срещу нас в САЩ. Стандарт, 28 май, 2022.
  8. ^ Драгомир Богданов: Променят ли се учебниците, след 20 г. в РС Македония няма да мразят българите. 24 часа, 10.05.2022.
  9. ^ "At the request of UMD, the governor of Ohio declared September 8 as Macedonian Independence Day in the state of Ohio". Republika. 8 September 2022.
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