Talk:Karposh's rebellion

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Raso[edit]

Once again - try to adhere to NPOV and try to discuss your reverts. Till now you haven't shown any willingness to discuss problem issues. You only say you don't have time to do it. If you don't have time to write a few words here, then you shouldn't have the time to edit at all, isn't that right? --Laveol T 22:57, 10 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Karposh, the Macedonian[edit]

A reliable source would be required in order to assign an ethnicity to Karposh, the leader of the rebellion. I am confident that no such reliable source exists. That said, I understand the importance of the Karposh rebellion in the contemporary Macedonian national consciousness and in Macedonian historiography. I would support the inclusion of a section on the modern "Macedonian Karaposh" once the historical Karaposh has been better documented. Aramgar (talk) 01:20, 11 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Actually there is no need for a section here - he's in the disambiguation page already.--Laveol T 09:48, 11 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
No, I am not speaking of the Hristijan Todorovski Karpoš of the disambiguation page. I refer to the rather shadowy 17th century rebel discussed in this article. Histories of Macedonia written by Macedonians tend to point to the Karposh rebellion as an early stirring of Macedonian national consciousness, hence the persistence of some editors in assigning him an ethnicity here. If someone feels strongly enough about his supposedly Macedonian ethnicity, let him discuss it in a section about Karaposh in contemporary Macedonian historiography. I think we both agree that claiming that the historical Karposh was Macedonian is pure anachronism. Aramgar (talk) 13:49, 11 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Karaposh and the Kosovo Albanians[edit]

I have seen specifically Yugoslav histories crediting the suppression of the rebellion and the subsequent withdraw of Slavic, Christian populations to the north as opening Kosovo to Albanian settlers. Could someone comment on the validity of this view, preferably with reference to reliable sources? Aramgar (talk) 01:31, 11 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Macedonian uprising[edit]

Please, provide references about the Macedonaian ethnic character of the rebels before reverting. Karposh, himself was from Rhodopi, also undisputed Bulgarian. Jingby (talk) 13:21, 17 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Nothing was provided. Only reverts. Jingby (talk) 16:26, 21 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Please, stop disruptive editing and discuss before reverting! Jingby (talk) 12:45, 11 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

What part here is objectionable, untrue, or a matter of opinion that was needs discussing? — Preceding unsigned comment added by BenFranklinPhilly (talk • contribs) 22:47, 11 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The deletion of the term Bulgarian in this article and its substitution with the term Macedonian is ultra-nationalistic POV[edit]

Throughout the Middle Ages and until the early 20th century, there was no clear formulation or expression of a distinct Macedonian ethnicity. The Slavic speaking majority in the Region of Macedonia had been referred to (both, by themselves and outsiders) as Bulgarians, and that is how they were predominantly seen since 10th,[1][2][3] up until the early 20th century.[4] It is generally acknowledged that the ethnic Macedonian identity emerged in the late 19th century or even later.[5][6][7][8][9][10] However, the existence of a discernible Macedonian national consciousness prior to the 1940s is disputed.[11][12][13][14][15] Anti-Serban and pro-Bulgarian feelings among the local population at this period prevailed.[16][17] According to some researchers, by the end of the war a tangible Macedonian national consciousness did not exist and bulgarophile sentiments still dominated in the area, but others consider that it hardly existed.[18] After 1944 Communist Bulgaria and Communist Yugoslavia began a policy of making Macedonia into the connecting link for the establishment of new Balkan Federative Republic and stimulating here a development of distinct Slav Macedonian consciousness.[19] With the proclamation of the Socialist Republic of Macedonia as part of the Yugoslav federation, the new authorities also started measures that would overcome the pro-Bulgarian feeling among parts of its population.[20] In 1969 also the first History of the Macedonian nation was published. The past was systematycally falsified to conceal the truth, that most of the well-known Macedonians had felt themselves to be Bulgarians and generations of students were tought the pseudo-history of the Macedonian nation.[21]

References and notes[edit]

  1. ^ Who are the Macedonians? Hugh Poulton, C. Hurst & Co. Publishers, 2000, ISBN 1850655340, p. 19-20.
  2. ^ Средновековни градови и тврдини во Македонија, Иван Микулчиќ, Македонска академија на науките и уметностите — Скопје, 1996, стр. 72.
  3. ^ Formation of the Bulgarian nation: its development in the Middle Ages (9th-14th c.) Academician Dimitŭr Simeonov Angelov, Summary, Sofia-Press, 1978, pp. 413-415.
  4. ^ Center for Documentation and Information on Minorities in Europe, Southeast Europe (CEDIME-SE) - "Macedonians of Bulgaria", p. 14.
  5. ^ Krste Misirkov, On the Macedonian Matters (Za Makedonckite Raboti), Sofia, 1903: "And, anyway, what sort of new Macedonian nation can this be when we and our fathers and grandfathers and great-grandfathers have always been called Bulgarians?"
  6. ^ Sperling, James; Kay, Sean; Papacosma, S. Victor (2003). Limiting institutions?: the challenge of Eurasian security governance. Manchester, UK: Manchester University Press. p. 57. ISBN 978-0-7190-6605-4. Macedonian nationalism Is a new phenomenon. In the early twentieth century, there was no separate Slavic Macedonian identity
  7. ^ Titchener, Frances B.; Moorton, Richard F. (1999). The eye expanded: life and the arts in Greco-Roman antiquity. Berkeley: University of California Press. p. 259. ISBN 978-0-520-21029-5. On the other hand, the Macedonians are a newly emergent people in search of a past to help legitimize their precarious present as they attempt to establish their singular identity in a Slavic world dominated historically by Serbs and Bulgarians. ... The twentieth-century development of a Macedonian ethnicity, and its recent evolution into independent statehood following the collapse of the Yugoslav state in 1991, has followed a rocky road. In order to survive the vicissitudes of Balkan history and politics, the Macedonians, who have had no history, need one.
  8. ^ Kaufman, Stuart J. (2001). Modern hatreds: the symbolic politics of ethnic war. New York: Cornell University Press. p. 193. ISBN 0-8014-8736-6. The key fact about Macedonian nationalism is that it is new: in the early twentieth century, Macedonian villagers defined their identity religiously—they were either "Bulgarian," "Serbian," or "Greek" depending on the affiliation of the village priest. ... According to the new Macedonian mythology, modern Macedonians are the direct descendants of Alexander the Great's subjects. They trace their cultural identity to the ninth-century Saints Cyril and Methodius, who converted the Slavs to Christianity and invented the first Slavic alphabet, and whose disciples maintained a centre of Christian learning in western Macedonia. A more modern national hero is Gotse Delchev, leader of the turn-of-the-century Internal Macedonian Revolutionary Organization (IMRO), which was actually a largely pro-Bulgarian organization but is claimed as the founding Macedonian national movement.
  9. ^ Rae, Heather (2002). State identities and the homogenisation of peoples. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press. p. 278. ISBN 0-521-79708-X. Despite the recent development of Macedonian identity, as Loring Danforth notes, it is no more or less artificial than any other identity. It merely has a more recent ethnogenesis - one that can therefore more easily be traced through the recent historical record.
  10. ^ Zielonka, Jan; Pravda, Alex (2001). Democratic consolidation in Eastern Europe. Oxford: Oxford University Press. p. 422. ISBN 978-0-19-924409-6. Unlike the Slovene and Croatian identities, which existed independently for a long period before the emergence of SFRY Macedonian identity and language were themselves a product federal Yugoslavia, and took shape only after 1944. Again unlike Slovenia and Croatia, the very existence of a separate Macedonian identity was questioned—albeit to a different degree—by both the governments and the public of all the neighboring nations (Greece being the most intransigent)
  11. ^ Loring M. Danforth, The Macedonian Conflict: Ethnic Nationalism in a Transnational World, 1995, Princeton University Press, p.65, ISBN 0691043566
  12. ^ Stephen Palmer, Robert King, Yugoslav Communism and the Macedonian question,Hamden, Connecticut Archon Books, 1971, p.p.199-200
  13. ^ The Macedonian Question: Britain and the Southern Balkans 1939-1949, Dimitris Livanios, edition: Oxford University Press, US, 2008, ISBN 0199237689, p. 65.
  14. ^ The struggle for Greece, 1941-1949, Christopher Montague Woodhouse, C. Hurst & Co. Publishers, 2002, ISBN 1850654921, p. 67.
  15. ^ Who are the Macedonians? Hugh Poulton,Hurst & Co. Publishers, 1995, ISBN 1850652384, 9781850652380, p. 101.
  16. ^ The struggle for Greece, 1941-1949, Christopher Montague Woodhouse, C. Hurst & Co. Publishers, 2002, ISBN 1850654921, p. 67.
  17. ^ Who are the Macedonians? Hugh Poulton,Hurst & Co. Publishers, 1995, ISBN 1850652384, 9781850652380, p. 101.
  18. ^ The Macedonian conflict: ethnic nationalism in a transnational world, Loring M. Danforth, Princeton University Press, 1997, ISBN 0691043566, pp. 65-66.
  19. ^ Europe since 1945. Encyclopedia by Bernard Anthony Cook. ISBN 0815340583, pg. 808.[1]
  20. ^ {{cite book | last =Djokić | first =Dejan | title =Yugoslavism: Histories of a Failed Idea, 1918-1992 | publisher =C. Hurst & Co. Publishers | year =2003 | pages =122 .
  21. ^ Yugoslavia: a concise history, Leslie Benson, Palgrave Macmillan, 2001, ISBN 0333792416, p. 89.

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Offshoot from Karposh's rebellion[edit]

Per Wikipedia:Content forking a new article called Second Battle of Kumanovo is either for merge or for deletion, because it is an offshoot from Karposh's rebellion. Jingiby (talk) 06:30, 21 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I support merging. Mccapra (talk) 05:31, 9 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Done. There wasn't really anything of substance to merge which came from reliable sourcing. Added the name of the battle and the two valid sources, but the other material from the other article was already summarized here.Onel5969 TT me 13:49, 4 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
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