Talk:John Williams Gunnison

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awsome article!!![edit]

thanks that helped! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 163.248.111.244 (talk) 20:05, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Edit of Massacre section[edit]

I will be dividing the massacre section into at least 3 different sections. One will deal with the Gunnison - Beckwith Expedition, the other with the massacre. I added the Schiel account and will be citing from it, as it is a contemporary account by a member of the expedition (the portion not killed.) A third section will deal with the subsequent investigations, allegations, etc.

Gunnison was an important person in Western Exploration who deserves to be touted for his accomplishments, which were extraordinary. His death, while tragic, should not eclipse his life and accomplishments.

Any problems with this?

Also, why is the martial law declaration of BY a ref? It was published 4 years after the massacre and I can see no reason for its appearance here. --Robbie Giles (talk) 17:35, 13 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Editing this to remove the claim that the Mountain Meadows Massacre contributed to the Utah war (it ocurred after the Utah expedition was created). If someone has a citation for the Gunnison massacre contributing to the war please add it in. I'm leaving that sentence in although it isn't generally listed as a significant factor. User2635 (talk) 01:01, 26 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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No: not the Pahvant Utes[edit]

One problem with this article is the murder of the survey crew by "Pahvant Utes." The only evidence the murderers were Pahvant Utes comes from the survivor and Brigham Young; Young called his cult follower's "My Indians" when they dressed up as Utes and committed crimes, murder, and mayhem, and Young had every evil reason to lie about who the killers were. Note that some of Young's slaves were identified as belonging to the mob that killed the surveyors, including one black slave.

The Pahvant Utes actively protected USA Government employees who were in Utah, such as John M. Bernhisel esq., who was sent by Millard Fillmore to bring civilization (Fillmore's word) and a real government to Utah Territory. The Pahvant Utes hid some of the people Young and his cult members tried to murder, risking their own lives. Brigham Young personally poisoned to death the Pahvant chief a few months later during a "peace pow wow."

The Pahvant Utes were enemies toward the Mormons and Yellow Man (the Anglo name for Yellow Man was "Walkara") for the same reason--- they were kidnapping, raping, and enslaving Utes and Paiutes in the south of Utah and selling them to Mexicans and Mormon buyers. The Pahvant Utes are the heroes in the story, not the villains. By year 1852 Yellow Man and his warriors had a "falling out" with Brigham Young, and started to contest Mormon land-grabs and little-girl-grabs. One reason the Pahvant Utes were against the new kingdom and its kind was because Mormons enslaved and traded human beings. The Pahvant Utes these days would be seen as "plucky rebels" against tyranny and genocide against the Mormons; from my reading of the Pahvant, I would consider the probability that they would have warned and/or protected the Gunnison surveyors if they had known the government agents were scheduled to die at Mormon hands.

See, for example, Executive Document Number 35, 32d Congress, House of Representatives, dated January 9, 1852, wherein the Pahvanti were praised by Millard Fillmore and and Daviel Webster. Desertphile (talk) 20:45, 2 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

If you have sources to back up any of this section, that would be great to add. It's already discussed at length under "Investigations and allegations". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.73.13.6 (talk) 21:01, 2 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]