Talk:Japanese-Jewish common ancestry theory

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2011[edit]

Hang on Sorry a lot of things to be written and to be continued for now I d like to do my best to improve — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lakym (talk • contribs) 09:51, 6 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

WP:NPOV[edit]

This article has a huge number of problems from poorly formatted references to horrible writing. That can all be fixed. However, this article isn't even close to being neutral. It lacks a single discussion of scholars who might think this theory is laughable. We could start with linguistics. This is a fringe theory.OrangeMarlin Talk• Contributions 18:31, 3 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

  • Oddball theories were of course much more common in the 19th century, and would receive notice, as this one did and has. I added some cites to the AfD discussion that shows mainstream folks did talk about this theory at the time and find it comical, but notable.--Milowent • talkblp-r 02:49, 6 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Does Wikipedia really have to include every lunatic fringe rubbish dreamed up by fringe religious groups? And this is clearly not a theory, since it has no explanatory power whatsoever. Articles like this strain the credibility of WP as a serious encyclopedia. ♆ CUSH ♆ 17:11, 28 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It's discussed enough in reliable sources that we can improve it, and it wouldn't be deleted at AfD, so that's not an option. Dougweller (talk) 17:21, 28 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I had thought reliable sources had to be credible sources. McLeod had no expertise in archaeology, history, or evolutionary biology. So that goes out the window. Can we now delete this joke? ♆ CUSH ♆ 17:49, 28 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Thought you were watching FTN. This clearly meets our criteria: [1]. Another problem is the wording, "which provide some evidence for this possibility" is not appropriate. See also this search result: [2]. Dougweller (talk) 17:57, 28 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Oh please. Please demonstrate that a significant number of Japanese believed this silly hypothesis, that it really had adherents as well as an impact on anyone outside this circle of adherents. You know, establishing notability as for everything else on WP.
And just look at the article. The reference sections are larger than the article text. This article is artificially trying to present a far-out fringe idea that never had any credibility from the beginning. McLeod is not a RS. Goodman is based on McLeod. Jon Entine's book is just racist drivel with no scientific value whatsoever. ♆ CUSH ♆ 22:54, 29 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

What now?[edit]

OK, the article now has only three short sentences. I think it is time to either integrate this into some other article (Ten Lost Tribes ?) or dump it altogether. ♆ CUSH ♆ 09:08, 2 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I cannot tell a lie: t'was I as shortened your article yer'onner, wiff my little hatchet. Methinks the world would be a better place without this piece of puffery. PiCo (talk) 09:53, 2 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
So, I take it you haven't quit the drugs in the new year ♆ CUSH ♆ 10:02, 2 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Let us begin as we mean to continue. (All the best to you for the coming 365, by the way). PiCo (talk) 10:21, 2 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Have added two sources and substantial material[edit]

The topic is relevant from more than one standpoint, in particular with respect to history, but also the phenomenon of modern religious movements in Japan and Judeo-Christian influence. The corresponding Japanese version of the article is ridiculously overloaded with promotional nonsense, as was the British Israelism article until recently. Both this page and particularly the BI page need a lot of work, but this is a start.--Ubikwit (talk) 15:30, 5 December 2012 (UTC)Ubikwit[reply]

Title[edit]

As the title isn't a proper noun, shouldn't it be moved to Japanese-Jewish common ancestor theory?--ukexpat (talk) 16:09, 15 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Ah yes, you speak the truth. Paul B (talk) 17:26, 15 February 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Out of Africa, pottery, genetics,natural selection[edit]

Out of Africa theory means toba volcano wiped out most of things 72kyp and all descendent of black African or plus 4% neanderthal(or slight variant). Haplogroup are ancestral study of genetic of pure male(Y) or pure female(mitochondrial). Each study only represent 0.1% of ancestries after 200 years(10 generations) 1/(2^10)= 0.1%. So only 0.2% chance for small group to leave a trace in 200 years. http://real7777.wordpress.com/science/gene Father's mother and mother's father side of genetics are not represented at all. There are 23 chromosome pair plus mitochondria so it is 1/47 or approximately 2%. Y haplogroup study only represent about 2% of genetics which are pass on in male. Basically it show who was father->father-father->father->... Mitochondrial Hapogroup represent about 2% too and mother->mother->mother->mother->... Northern Japanese, Tibetan, and Negrito(look similar to pure African pygmy) from Andamanese islands in India all have fairly similar Y haplogroup D but can look different. These studies are good for general migration trend, but it will miss small migration mix in with large population. Things like ruling class that brought metal and technology might not show after few hundred years. Anyway, 72kyp there was toba volcano eruption and extinction event around equator. Eventually re-population from various routes. In about 10-20 whole chromosome study will be done and things like intelligence/height/lighter skin/higher testosterone level etc. will probably prove likely genetic influence from middle east (Jew/Persia etc.) Perhaps higher testosterone or temper/anger gene is shared by scythian, korean, jewish Simeon tribe, japanese buraknin.

East Asia Ruler Class Migration Speculation

Origin of East Asian Quick summery: 

   1) Chinese pottery and symbol to Middle East
   2) Middle East Sumer have empire structure, metal, writing,pottery, mason, etc
   3) Middle East technology etc. come back to china in various waves
   4) jizi joseon(gojoseon) by shang refugee jizi
   5) Various refugee gets to japan such as Shang,zhou,qin (some through korea)
   6) Silla rules was from Japanese Hogong(duke bottle gourd)=Park(gourd), Kim= egg/box found by Hogong, Seok=1000 north east of Wa.

Anyway, small merchant or refugee type jewish migration pre-silk road and silk-road is possible and likely. Things like extra intelligence are very hard to come by by natural selection. In fact it is very critical part of humans. Similarly, pottery took 2 million years and it is not going to get reinvented. So migration from middle east and back and forth after few hundred or thousand years are very likely and not impossible. --Real7777 (talk) 19:47, 19 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I've reverted your edits as they contravene our policy of no original research as well as not being properly sourced. Similarly, your post above is original research and we can't use any of it in the article. This is not a talk page to discuss the theory. Dougweller (talk) 20:34, 19 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
While some are my original work. There are portion of it sourced directly from ancient writing and modern science some of it in wiki.Real7777 (talk) 15:35, 28 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Books by the evangelical minister Samuel Lee are likely not RS[edit]

The author in question advocates a fringe theory based on religion and speculation.
He states
My goal is to help the western or non-Japanese Christians to better understand Japan for the sake of the Kingdom of God.
From the Amazon blurb it appears that he attempts to site linguistic evidence, but he is not a linguist. It sounds very similar to efforts that have been made by supporters of British Israelism, and refuted. The following links are to other various pages from related website(s)

  1. Samuel Lee World Evangelism
  2. Project Japan
  3. About Samuel Lee
  4. Pastor David Yonggi Cho in the photo on the About page...

It also appears that Hamilton Books are not peer reviewed.

Hamilton Books, launched in 2003, provides authors of serious non-fiction titles, including corporate leaders, politicians, scholars, war veterans, and family historians, the opportunity to sign with a top-quality publisher without the typical hassles and extreme selectivity enforced by other publishers(emphasis added)[3].

--Ubikwit 連絡 見学/迷惑 16:24, 26 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I agree and have removed the book. Dougweller (talk) 18:44, 26 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

There is no evidence available, including modern DNA...[edit]

This is misleading statement that ignores facts and should be removed. Haplogroup are ancestral study of genetic of pure male(Y) or pure female(mitochondrial). Each study only represent 0.1% of ancestries after 200 years(10 generations) 1/(2^10)= 0.1%. So only 0.2% chance for small group to leave a trace in 200 years. http://real7777.wordpress.com/science/gene Or after 2000 years 0.0002% if it was random. So it is like a lottery odd and falsely representing the fact. It is somewhat equivalent of saying there is no evidence of anyone winning big lottery prizes looking at few sample of tickets. Real7777 (talk) 15:57, 28 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Once again, the policy WP:OR has been pointed out to you in relation to your statements and edits. This talk page is WP:NOTFORUM --Ubikwit 連絡 見学/迷惑 16:21, 28 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]
"Y-DNA is inherited solely along the paternal line (father to son). The lineage traced is the father's, father's, father's... paternal line. "

"mtDNA is inherited solely along the matrilineal line (mother to child). The lineage traced is the mother's, mother's, mother's... maternal line." http://www.dnahaplogroups.org/introduction.php?type=start&page=1&l=n&__atoken=__NONE__ Misleading statement that based on misrepresentation of haplogroup study should be removed. Real7777 (talk) 14:09, 1 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Ainu people of Japan connection[edit]

The ainu are israelites. Japanese are all partial ainu, therefore Japanese are israelites. --2001:1970:5E5B:AE00:F07F:EC72:487A:30F4 (talk) 02:28, 13 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Wrong and wrong. Doug Weller talk 06:09, 13 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Wow. Because clearly, bear worship is the same as lighting the menorah! Or something... 🤦 ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 18:12, 14 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Chinese term "大秦"[edit]

The Chinese term "大秦" refers to the Roman Empire, not the "Levant", except insofar as the Levant was part of the Roman Empire. [4][5]
--Ubikwit 連絡 見学/迷惑 04:30, 23 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

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Additional information[edit]

if anyone interested to add some information to this article, please consider this blog post "Many of the traditional ceremonies in Japan and their DNA indicate that the Lost Tribes of Israel came to ancient" Japan http://www2.biglobe.ne.jp/~remnant/isracame.htm

also my personal experience in Philippines may give you some ideas! https://www.facebook.com/notes/igor-the-troll/jews-in-philippines/10156213615858916/

here is a Japanese video with English subtitles about Jewish connection https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yhlkuGwEecY Ainus were the first jews in Japan https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=endv3PVpXFg

Tada Raba and Arigato Gozai Imasu Igor Berger (talk) 16:36, 25 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, but these all fail WP:RS and can't be used. Doug Weller talk 16:54, 25 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
did not say the links can be used per Wikipedia, but something to learn from and do more research for factual articles that can be used for Wikipedia as credible source Igor Berger (talk) 17:15, 25 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
maybe this can be used, it is Japanese TV program Japanese are 1/3 Jewish, please watch https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yhlkuGwEecY thanks, Igor Berger (talk) 17:18, 25 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]
It bears commenting that that Japanese program is the television equivalent of the National Enquirer, or of History Channel shows claiming that aliens built the pyramids. It's sensationalist claptrap, for purposes of entertainment and selling advertising spots. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 01:23, 12 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I am surprised that there is no mention of the work of Marvin Tokayer. Some may consider him WP:RS; others may not. He has researched and written quite a bit on this topicLeo Schlosberg (talk) 19:22, 9 January 2022 (UTC). He is the rare Anglophone who is also fluent in Japanese. https://rabbitokayer.com/[reply]

@Leo Schlosberg:, his website doesn't seem to have anything claiming that the Japanese are Jewish. Do you have any specific titles of his works that discuss this? ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 01:23, 12 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
He (and others) claim that some, thought by no means all, Japanese have Israelite descent. Much of his written stuff is in Japanese and yet to be translated. This site relies partly on Tokayer and appears to be a reasonable source. It's a 4-chapter thing, with links to the following chapters at the bottom of the page. https://remnant-p.com/isracame — Preceding unsigned comment added by User:Leo Schlosberg (talk • contribs) 01:43, 12 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Leo Schlosberg: Your https://remnant-p.com/isracame link is just a 404 for me, no content there. Any chance you have a more up-to-date URL?
I can read Japanese, so if you have any links to Japanese content by him, that would still be helpful. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 20:18, 12 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Leo Schlosberg: Looks like your intended URL was probably https://remnant-p.com/isracame.htm instead -- without that .htm on the end, your link didn't work.
That page makes assertions that I can't confirm, particularly regarding the 御頭祭 (Ontōsai) festival held at the Suwa Taisha shrine. The relevant Japanese Wikipedia page about the shrine (ja:諏訪大社) also discusses the Ontōsai festival some in the ja:諏訪大社#上社_3 section, and it makes no mention of pillars or mock sacrifice of a boy. Other sources also fail to mention any mock sacrifice or pillars. There is a wholly different festival, 御柱祭 (Mihashirasai), which consists of getting 16 huge momi fir trees, four apiece for each of four major shrines in the Suwa region, and setting these up as pillars -- but there's nothing about mock sacrifice. The JA Wikipedia page about Ontōsai describes records stretching back centuries that provide details about the animals used for offerings, again with no mention of mock sacrifice.
The page also claims that the 75 deer traditionally sacrificed at the Suwa Taisha shrine were somehow stand-ins for sheep, and that sheep were absent from Japan. While apparently not widespread, it seems there is a koto from the Yayoi period found in Tottori prefecture with a picture of what apparently looks like a sheep or goat, and we have textual evidence from the 700s that sheep were present in Japan. There's also the existence of the Japanese word 羊 (hitsuji, "sheep"), which has not yet been shown to be a borrowing from any other language.
And, that page claims that animal sacrifice is somehow anomalous in Japanese ceremonies. While not common, it isn't absent, and Japanese content about the festival suggests that this may be a holdover from times when hunting was more important. Much as shrines in agricultural areas emphasize rice agriculture as an important aspect of local survival, this Suwa Taisha shrine in a more mountainous (and thus, not easily farmable) area emphasizes hunting instead.
Linguistically, that page makes a number of speculative claims that do not stand up well to closer scrutiny.
  • People call this festival "the festival for Misakuchi-god". "Misakuchi" might be "mi-isaku-chi." "Mi" means "great," "isaku" is most likely Isaac (the Hebrew word "Yitzhak"), and "chi" is something for the end of the word. It seems that the people of Suwa made Isaac a god, probably by the influence of idol worshipers.
There is a Japanese Wikipedia article ja:ミシャグジ (Mishaguji). This word appears in a region roughly centered around the Suwa area, and it has a lot of variations, both in pronunciation and spelling. An etymological analysis suggests honorific prefix 御 (mi-), with the shaguji portion possibly deriving from 割く (saku) ("to split", here perhaps in reference to the idea of "breaking the soil" in preparation for planting) + 地 (chi, earth, soil) or 霊 (chi, mystical force or power); the latter seems more likely as the native term, since the chi reading for 地 is derived from Chinese. Some regional variations omit the honorific mi- prefix, manifesting as Shaguji, Shagoji, etc.
In terms of phonology, Hebrew יצחק (Yitskhák, Yiṣḥāq) or ישחק (Yisḥáq) would likely be reflected in Japanese as イツハク (Itsuhaku), イツカク (Itsukaku), イシハク (Ishihaku), イシカク (Ishikaku), イスハク (Isuhaku), or イスカク (Isukaku). The Japanese version of this name as イサク ("Isaku") is borrowed from English Isaac, which didn't exist yet in 681, when some researchers think this Mishaguji may have been first mentioned.
Considering also that the regional variations strongly suggest that this term is mi- + shaguji, and not mi-isaku-chi as the "Isrealite" page claims, any connection with the Hebrew name יצחק (Yitskhák, Yiṣḥāq) seems unlikely.
  • There are various claims about pillars and mock sacrifice of a boy as part of the Ontōsai festival.
This may be confusion on the part of the author. I find vaguely similar depictions about Mishaguji, but not Ontōsai specifically. For Mishaguji, it seems that a participant, called an 神使 (okō) (which there might have been multiple of?) would engage in a month-long purification ritual, after which the head priest would hold a ceremony whereby the Mishaguji would manifest within or possess the person. I can't find anything about the participant being tied to the wooden pillar -- rather, there would be two pillars formed into a torii gate, and adorned with skewers on which the sacrificial deer meat and other offerings would be arranged. Alternatively, there may be stone pillars as phallic representations related to ideas of fertility. More at ja:ミシャグジ#神使の精進 (in Japanese).
  • The name, "Moriya," could have come from "Moriah" (the Hebrew word "Moriyyah") of Genesis 22:2, that is today's Temple Mount of Jerusalem. Among Jews, God of Moriah means the one true God whom the Bible teaches.
The Japanese mountain is named 守屋山 (Moriya-san, literally "Guardhouse Mountain"). An older documented name is 守屋ヶ嶽 (Moriya-ga-take, literally "Guardhouse Heights") or 守矢が岳 (Moriya-ga-take, literally "Guard-arrow Heights"). Local lore suggests that moriya is a shortening of 森山 (mori yama, literally "forest mountain"). All of this makes sense internally to Japanese, and shows no reasonable connection to Hebrew מוֹרִיָּה (Mōrīyya) beyond accidental similarity.
There's more I could go into, such as the author's confusion about tora no maki as evidence for "Torah scroll", rather than the known connection to a Chinese text from roughly 1100 BCE, the so-called "Tiger Strategy" as part of the Six Secret Teachings -- wherein tora is the Japanese word for "tiger". But I run out of time.
Suffice it to say that the https://remnant-p.com/isracame.htm page appears to be a large collection of fanciful "what-if" statements that fall apart upon closer inspection. Considering as well that page's lack of citations or bibliography, and thus our inability to verify its content, ultimately I think that page can be dismissed out of hand as insufficiently rigorous or dependable for Wikipedia citation standards.
Cheers, ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 02:11, 13 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Eirikr, thanks for the correction. I read your analysis. Your knowledge is way beyond mine. You may want to read what Tokayer has written. From https://remnant-p.com/isracame.htm : " If you can read Japanese, "Nihon-Yudaya, Huuin no Kodaishi" which is written by Rabbi Marvin Tokayer and published by Tokuma-shoten is the best book on this topic (This book includes many pictures. The English version is not published yet)." — Preceding unsigned comment added by Leo Schlosberg (talk • contribs) 02:45, 13 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
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