Talk:Islamic dietary laws/Archive 1

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This excellent article was really helpful to me. My esteemed brother-in-law is a Shiite Muslim, and I don't wish to accidentally offend him. Meat in his house is halal. I don't know if he personally accepts kosher meat as within halal, or if he is more strict than that. I do know that he shops for meat at Muslim establishments which follow halal slaughtering practices.

I'd like to see the Islamic point of view on tobacco, marihuana, coffee (a susbtitute of alcohol according to its article), tea and insects. Are they all halal? I also miss a reference to Ramadan and the Lamb feast day or other sacrifices. -- Error 01:46, 19 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Indeed. I also believe there's a catagory of "so-so" things between halal and haram, which the article doesn't cover. I'd also like to see more details of butchery practices (someone told me that the blood mustn't drain over the animal's body, so it is laid on its side before its throat is cut). I'd also like to know if there are parallels to various kosher practices with regard to preparation (e.g. rules against mixing meat and dairy, even sharing utensils or fridges between the two). I think kosher also specifies that a baker's oven has to be lit by someone in particular (I think by a jew) for the bread to be kosher - do muslim dietary laws (or practices) have something like this?

As far as I know, there is no direct reference in Quran banning tobacco, marijuana or coffe, but in Shiite Islam the many--most of the--rules are set by referring to a Mujtahid. So, there might not be a fixed opinion. The consensus, as far as I know, is that tobacco is not haram, marijuana is haram, and coffee is not haram.

The category of so-so things includes "mobah" that is better to be done, and "makruh" that is better not to be done. The kosher rules in general are stricter than those of Islamic dietery rules.

I should add that I do not have detailed or specific information. Perhaps you should refer to a muslim teachings web site. Bhs 12:22 pm 4 May 2004 (PDT).

Eating biscuits for ma dinnar :D I noticed that there is another entry on this subject under Halaal, and alternate spelling which also mentions the spelling used for this page. It would be good if someone would combine the two into one article using the most-correct spelling. I live in a very Muslim area of Toronto and I've seen the single-a spelling a lot, but never the double-a. It would also do well for the resulting article to be reverse-linked to Kashrut and Category:Diets. TimothyPilgrim 18:11, Jul 16, 2004 (UTC)

For Muslims it is meaningless to speculate about the reason for the dietary laws because Allah knows best.

Drugs are seen as Haraam by virtually all Muslims, not just Shia. The Qur'an bans drugs here: And do not destroy yourselves. (Qur'an 4:29) I'm not sure that's a ban on drugs as much as it is a condemnation of suicide. Many drugs are not "destructive" per se.

Also, in Shia Islam, the Laws aren't "set" by the Mujtahid, they are transmitted. That means that the Mujtahid tells you the Law and how it applies in your situation. The Mujtahid doesn't make up the Law, though. Armyrifle 01:44, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

What about consumption by others?

I was recently witness to a Muslim extremely unhappy about a non-muslim's consumption of alcohol. In this particular case the Muslim was unusually determined not to allow his young child to be witness to the consumption of alcohol. I looked to wikipedia to find the answer, and found myself here with no answer. Will a devout Muslim not allow non-muslims to consume alcohol? What if the location is a public place, such as public transport? What if the Muslim's small child is with him (her) and also a witness? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.168.116.20 (talk) 07:28, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

Muslim edicts are generally only applicable to Muslims, therefore non-Muslims do not have to follow Halal requirements. I don't drink alcohol anyway but I have been with Muslim friends to places where alcohol is consumed and they don't raise a fuss. I suppose it would depend on context. If the consumption of alcohol was at the Muslim person's home or in some place where you would not expect alcohol to be consumed, like a public park or a predominantly Muslim country, then the Muslim person would (justifiably in my opinion) be upset. I think, though, that most Muslims realize that those not of their faith are not bound by its edicts and would not make try to prevent a non-Muslim from drinking. It could be that the particular parent you witnessed is overly protective, something which you find in every culture. 150.203.110.172 (talk) 08:58, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

then they declare jihad and assault said person with a meat cleaver screaming Alla. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.30.146.240 (talk) 16:46, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

Healthy Diet?

The Healthy Diet section quotes the Quran (6:141), but I'm not sure it is assumed to mean what this section implies. I have always thought this verse was more about wasting food, ie. throwing it away, rather than over-eating. I would like to see some sort of evidence of this interpretation by a known scholar.

I interpret it to mean that the poor due should be paid at harvest time, from the harvest, but that one should not be wastefully extravagant in this. In line with the command to pay the poor due and do not be miserly nor extravagant, and there is ever a firm station between the two.
I have edited the section to show that the interpretation given is not widely accepted, but obviously refrained from adding other possible interpretations of the verse that wouldn't belong there. Abd r Raheem al Haq (talk) 16:03, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

can somebody tell about roosters

can somebody pleaaaaase tell me about rooster or hen as haraam according to strict quran laws. i know it is commonly eaten, but as i read the quran and other books, i find enough evidence to support that rooster is haraam since it has talons and it eats small organisms. please reply on my talk page.

and if u can, confirm that from someone who has read quran himself too. nids 11:40, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Is chicken allowed?

Chicken, as long as it is slaughtered according to islamic law is Halal. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.6.173.71 (talk) 15:07, 26 June 2010 (UTC) The article states that Muslims are not allowed to eat omnivores. However, I belive (please correct me if I am wrong) that some Muslims do eat Chicken. Chicken are listed as omnivore in the article Omnivore, however. So what is right and what is wrong here? Torben.green 16:02, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Chicken is extremely popular in the Muslim world, and you'll find that KFC's are (disturbingly) ubiquitous from Istanbul to Yemen. I'm not an expert on this subject so don't take my word for it, but from what I've gathered "meat", until relatively recently, referred to the flesh of vertebrate land animals and did not include fish or arthropods (insects, arachnids, shellfish). Wormwoodpoppies (talk) 11:42, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

Article needed? Opinions on deletion

I want to know other people's opinion regarding the deletion of this article. What can be found in this article that can't be found in Halal or Dhabiha. The latter articles are much more complete and, well, "better" than this one. What do you say?Starwarp2k2 03:18, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Seconded. It seems absurd to have both this and Halal. I was going to complain about the self-contradiction in the paragraph about whether it's agreed that meat slaughtered by non-Muslims can never be Halal, but frankly it seems pointless to fix it when the article is basically redundant anyway. --Oolong 23:28, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
Wait, hang on, apparently Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Islamic dietary laws concluded that it should be kept, in that two people disagreed and hence no consensus was reached. I think this is stupid, and it should probably be re-nominated but I'm too sleepy to do it now. --Oolong 23:37, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
The reason for the Keep vote seems to be to keep this as an umbrella topic, I would therefore contend that the specifics on this page should be removed since it is repitioin at best, and conflicting at worse (and it does conflict with the Halal page in a few places) dk4 (talk) 20:24, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

We?

"In the light of the above-mentioned Fatwas, it’s clear that selling pork is never deemed permissible, under any circumstances, either to Muslims or to non-Muslims. However, as we know that Islam does not stipulate rigid rulings or teachings in the sense of making things difficult for its followers, it leaves room to flexibility as regards certain situations that may warrant excuse. Selling pork to non-Muslims in the West falls in this category. But we must stress that this is only under extreme necessities, and necessity must be put within its domain."

'never permissible'? 'we'? These statements are not neutral. not even close. This section must be reworked. I won't touch it for now, as I know little about the subject matter, but if it dosen't get re-edited to be neutral, it's got to be deleted. Or what? You're going to bitch some more?

I agree to the extent that this section is very unencyclopaedic, and even written in the first person. Someone should tag this entire article, for it needs substantial work..if not deletionStarwarp2k2 11:52, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
Not only poorly written, the "Selling Pork to Non-Muslims" section is not about dietary laws since it just deals with the commerce of Pork. I removed it. dk4 (talk) 20:44, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Discrepancy regarding shellfish

I just noticed that the intro to this article says "... the majority of Muslims consider all shellfish (including crabs, lobsters, shrimp, crayfish, and all non-poisonous molluscs) to be halal.", and the subsection on Dhabiĥa: Islamic slaughter says "... shellfish and scaleless fishes such as catfish are harām'" I'm not Muslim, so I don't know about this. -- Boracay Bill 13:31, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

All scaleless fish are haram...including crab, lobster...however prawns are makrooh (advisable to refrain from, but not a sin if consumed) as for poultry...as along as it is slaughtered according to islamic law it is permisable.

A Animal that has died from other causes is deemed Haraam....one of the condition of a animal becoming halal to eat is that it has to be slaughter in the name of Allah.


This article could do with a major rewrite - on the one hand it makes sweeping statements (overeating is haram) while nitpicking other non issues (fish with scales or without) and still leaves readers confused about common food like poultry (halal BTW) moreover it does not address the fundamental Islamic prohibition on eating carrion (animals dead of other causes).ZerothMe (talk) 22:25, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Addressing Some Issues (a Sunni perspective)

Non-Scaled Fish... Islamic vs. Kosher Law

The reference to scaleless fish, catfish, crabs, lobsters and shellfish being haram is accurate and not misleading.

Weighing Benefit v. Harm in Islamic Jurisprudence

Muslims believe that Islamic Law regarding food is based on science and logic, but divinely revealed by Allah. As Allah is the Creator, these laws are in accordance with the best benefit to mankind, given His infinit knowledge of the natural order (the creation). This sense of a higher order is applied in the practice of the religion both on a inter-human level (man's relationship with others in society), and on a individual level (in the best interests of the individual), and with the natural world... the other creations of Allah (the environment, the animal and plant kingdoms).

Muslims believe that Allah's instructions to mankind are based on the idea of balancing [societal and personal] benefit against [societal and personal] harm. Many of the laws regarding food, the prohibition against eating dead meat (not slaughtered), blood, alcohol, and (under debate) by extension tobacco are based on the benefit v. harm equation, given His intimate knowledge of what is best for humankind. Much of Islamic revelation (whether hadith or qur'an), restricting or advocating a given item has been backed up by modern science.

An example of this can be applied is weighing the general law against a specific restriction. For example, it has already been stated that all food from the ocean is halal. So how would Fubu (blowfish) be classified, as it has the potential to cause paralysis and death? This is where jurisprudence comes into play. Where the (potential or actual) harm outweighs the good, then that item is prohibited. This would be in line with the Islamic prohibition against harming oneself. Just a quick ref to halal and non halal fish...all non scale fish are haraam...including crab, lobster...reason for this is that the scales on the fish help fight Bacteria. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.6.173.71 (talk) 14:49, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

Islamic Food (and other) Restrictions and Kashrut (Kosher) Overlaps

There are some places where Kosher and Islamic law regarding food do overlap, as would be expected. An overview of Islamic restrictions are as followed (with Kashrut parallels noted):

- Eating food that has been offered in sacrifice to a false diety (ie. not Allah). [also Kashrut]

A Note: The Catholic Eucharist would fall under this catagory, as Muslims are monotheists and do not believe that Jesus is God or the Son of God. But meat offered as sacrifice to YHWH in a Jewish sacrifice would be permissible, because YHWH is the same God as Allah (the God of Abraham, Isaac and Ismael);

- Eating the dead (land animals struck by cars, strangled, cooked alive or drowned) [also Kashrut];

- Eating or touching swine or the products of swine (pig, boar). [Also Kashrut]

A Note: This includes gelatin (unless it is fish gelatin. If not explicitly stated, this can be found out by checking if an item with gelatin listed on its ingredients is marked as Kosher.) {NOTE: Kosher gelatin is not only taken from fish, it can be taken from beef products ie, skins, bones of cows and therefore would not be halal} —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.146.42.138 (talk) 23:41, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

- Eating or drinking the blood of (any) animal (bludwurst) [Also Kashrut];

A Note: muslims regularly clean meat in vinegar or another acid to remove surface blood and draw out impurities before cooking. There is a parallel between this and the Kosher salting of meat.

- Eating 'creeping and crawling' things (insects, salamanders, frogs, snails, etc.);

A Note: a notable exception to this is the Arabian locust, another parallel to Kashrut.

- Eating the flesh of donkeys (and horses). [Also Kashrut via 'cloven hoof' prohibition] This is based on the hadith of the Prophet;

- The meat of predators and hunters, such as cat, dog, bear, alligator (they are not marine);

A Note: Owning and touching a dog are permissible, but a Muslim must wash up to purify him/herself after handling dogs because it breaks their wudu, or religious cleanliness, needed for salat (prostration prayer). Along the same lines, muslims cannot pray in a place where dog hair is present, therefore dogs are mostly kept outside for protection and to aid in hunting. Some Western commentators on the news channels mistakenly believe that Muslims think dogs are evil or that they're afraid of dogs because they fail to understand why Muslims avoid contact with dogs.

- Birds, namely, chickens and other poultry, with the exception of birds of prey (eagles, hawks, robins) and scavengers (buzzards) are widely accepted as halal. While they have claws they do not have TALONS -- the sign of HUNTING birds. Having said that, there are some people who find poultry distasteful.

- Eating human and primate meat or by-products is haram. [Also Kashrut]

- Consuming alcohol or products sourced from alcohol (ethanol), such as beer, fake-beer, flavoring extracts, certain methods of cooking that employ ethanol (flambee, fondue, etc.) and wine vinegars [ALL vinegar, not just wine vinegar, is derived from alcohol]. And, handling, selling or otherwise engaging in commerce (stock trading) in the alcohol trade.

A Note: There is hadith where the Prophet prohibited two (poor) orphan brothers from selling their only inheritance, a cask of wine left to them by their father, or turning the wine to vinegar, or selling the cask's wood for firewood. Alcohol use was gradually banned during the lifetime of the prophet to prevent sudden hardship on the Arabs who were both the inventors of and major consumers of (and addicted to) alcoholic products.

Are edible kelps halal? (Wakame, agar, etc.)

There is a debate among Muslims on the state of shellfish, but what about edible kelps? Kelps are not usually considered animal or fish and considered to be closer to vegetables. I feel that the lack of mention is probably from unfamiliarity with them rather than being none-halal. --Revth 05:21, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Kelp is considered halal, as are algae, mushrooms... —Preceding unsigned comment added by ZerothMe (talk • contribs) 22:23, 2 January 2008 (UTC)


Surah 16:115

"He only made forbidden for you what is already dead, and blood, and the meat of pig, and what was sacrificed to any other than God. But whoever is forced to, without disobedience or transgression, then God is Forgiving, Merciful".

Innama harrama AAalaykumualmaytata waalddama walahma alkhinzeeri wamaohilla lighayri Allahi bihi famani idturra ghayra baghinwala AAadin fa-inna Allaha ghafoorun raheemun

I've read Quran and am a bit confused about this verse, He only made forbidden for you what is already dead, if we read this the other way around, does it not mean, "He has allowed you to eat what is alive". Vegetables and fruits are alive when they are cut from the plant, so according to me only that's what Allah has permitted to eat. I've asked few of my friends who follow Islam about this. They seem to get confused. One can ask any dietitian, only fruits and vegetables when eaten raw has the best effect on ones health. Food in all other format has their effects. As per my understanding one should then only eat Vegetables (without cooking) and fruits (raw). BalanceΩrestored Talk 07:38, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

(Qur'an 6:141) It is He Who produceth gardens, with trellises and without, and dates, and tilth with produce of all kinds, and olives and pomegranates, similar (in kind) and different (in variety): eat of their fruit in their season, but render the dues that are proper on the day that the harvest is gathered. But waste not by excess: for Allah loveth not the wasters. (Qur'an 6:141)
I get the same when I read this 6:141 too.BalanceΩrestored Talk
"already dead" - meaning that which wasn't slaughtered for food, but dies in some other manner, such as natural causes, killed by another animal, road kill, etc.JackieRipper (talk) 19:25, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
Now which dictionary says that? "Already dead" means, something that's naturally dead. If you cut a male goat no matter after following the rules of halal, but the time you consume it, it's "already dead". Remember this sentence is given along with forbidding eating "pig" and should be also regarded "Haram". Again only allah knows what's the truth, but this sentence is very apparent suggesting not to eat something that's "already dead" and it's not accompanied with stating those additional reference you just gave.BalanceΩrestored Talk 11:01, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
Only in case of fruits (most of the fruits), the life is inside the hard covering of the fruit and when fruit is eaten without disturbing the seed (life), it does not harm it at all. For my understanding this is how the above verse is mentioned "Eat that's Alive", that means not killing/injuring the life. In fact it's natural for the fully ripen fruit to have someone eat the fruit pulp which gives a chance for the seed to get out of the natural cover and this allows the seed to grow again to a new plant. And someone eating the "fruit Alive" does give a chance for the plant to grow, as eating the fruit is an essential process in the plant life cycle. So, "Eating Alive" should be now 100% appropriate for anyones logic. Again, only Allah know what's written, I have only quoted what I've felt.BalanceΩrestored Talk 04:43, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
Again, only what I just quoted about eating fruits does not voilate anyother verses in Quran that refers to injustise and freedom. On the other hand eating animal meat, no matter after following the rules of hallal does voilate verses related to injustice. Again, I am a man, so do not know the truth. I've only written what was very apparant. Remember, it's only eating a fruit that's fallen from the tree 0% sin, as it does not harm the plant at all, the new born plant is alive inside the seed, it infact helps the life inside the seed to be born, and does not voliate any verse in Quran, while eating an animal after killing it does contradict the above verse Surah 16:115, as you are eating something that is already dead when it reaches your mouth. BalanceΩrestored Talk 12:14, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

This is a grave error. Along with the Holy Quran are the Hadiths. If we look to them and see the teachings and practices of the Prophet (sws) it is apparent that meat is the discussion. Also in the Holy Quran it specifically speaks to removing the ban on eating camel that had been placed on the Jewish. When we take the high level arabic the Holy Quran was written in, translate it into english, then put our political / social spin on it to make a point we want we are modifying the text for our gain not for knowledge or understanding. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.123.183.103 (talk) 16:46, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

How is the comment above a "Grave Error"? me suggesting "Not eating anything by giving Animal, Plant, or for matter any living organism pain" and to eat "Fruits that has naturally fallen from tree" cannot be an error as it does not violate any verse in the entire HOLY QURAN, if it did you need to point out which verse in Quran did it voilate. Now, I can show you over a dozen of verses in the QURAN itself that says not to HARM, not to be unjustifiable to weak, protect weak. What do you mean by "Grave Error" which verse in "Holy Quran" have I violated? Again at the end, I am a human "only GOD knows the Truth". I always write this "only GOD knows the Truth" at the end as I know I am commenting on HOLY QURAN. So, you cannot call that an error by any way. The above conclusion is only what was the most apparent to me. Instead of concluding something an "error" rationally check if it is actually an "Error". If you say it is an Error, now it becomes necessary for you to prove it is.BalanceΩrestored Talk 09:16, 4 July 2009 (UTC)
Again at the end... is it not safe to follow what is 100% right than to follow what could be right. Once again... at the end... only I see this to be the very apparent conclusion. Only GOD can guide what is right. BalanceΩrestored Talk 10:00, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

alcohol?

'but alcohol is allowed to be used for medical and other purposes, for example industrial and automotive use.' how would alcohol be used in an automotive or industrial setting? Craobh sidhe (talk) 23:41, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Fuel, solvent, coolant and antifreeze are the main industrial and automotive uses fror alcohol. as far as i know, Islam doesn't forbid alcohol for those purposes. (86.132.106.11 (talk) 00:56, 23 March 2009 (UTC))


I'm not a divinity expert, but I understand that Islam treats alcohol consumption as an incontinence rather than a dietary law per se.

According to some Qu'ran verses I've read, one may indulge in alcohol —or other sins of incontinence— and still remain a Muslim (c.f. saved in Christian dogma) so long as he abstains from sins of violence, deception, and treachery. He cannot, however, do so and become a Mohmand (c.f. perfect in Christian dogma).

To live become a Mohmand, one must not only renounce all sins of violence, deception, and treachery. Rather, he must expiate all his incontinences —including alcohol— as well. Pine (talk) 23:37, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

3 of the 4 sects of Sunni Islam view the consumption of Alcohol as forbidden. The Hanafi sect views that becoming intoxitated is forbidden, but doesn't forbid the consumption of alcohol. All of the 4 sects agree on one thing, the flogging of an intoxitated person. On another note, most Islamic countries have no problems with trading, consuming alcohol. Of course, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Afghanistan and Yemen have more strict laws regarding the matter. Certainly some of the Islamic countries do so because they've adopted secular laws, however, the gulf countries still follow sharia law and haven't banned alcohol. But to elucidate my point more, muslim owned restaurants (in the Islamic countries or the west), whould very unlikely serve pork, whereas, u could very well likely find an alcoholic drinks menu. Generalizing that Islam forbids the consumption of alcohol is quite generalistic and inaccurate. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.148.1.6 (talk) 20:38, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Omnivore/Piscivore

How do these rules work? It seems that carnivorous animals, like wolves or hawks are right out. Wild alligator, due to it eating birds, would be out. Some sharks would seem to be in, as they are generally piscivorous, but would great whites be out given their penchant for seals? What about a farm-raised alligator that was fed only fish? Certain species of bear could primarily (exclusively?) eat fish. Are they in or out (providing they were slaughtered properly)? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.201.166.254 (talk) 18:33, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

Soy sauce??

...pure vanilla extract or soy sauce as these food products contain about 30% alcohol by volume.
Soy sauce containing 30% alcohol? Regular soy sauce contains at most 1-2%, from the fermentation process, but not 30%. See also [1] -- megA (talk) 21:53, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

Changed to "vanilla extract and soy sauce forbidden IF they contain alcohol." - It is very well possible to manufacture soy sauce and vanilla extracts which are free of alcohol. For instance you can extract the vanilla into an oil, e.g. almond oil and use that in baking, it never comes into contact with alcohol. The references talk about alcohol, not soy sauce or vanilla extract specifically. 70.137.146.142 (talk) 04:21, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

Dead Animals

there is a prohibition against the eating of dead animals

so... how should they be eaten? alive? this sounds weird —Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.202.49.60 (talk) 06:06, 14 July 2009 (UTC) Not Really It actually means you can't eat them if they are already dead Like: you're walking down the street and you see a dead Chicken, you cannot eat it, but chickens sold in the market are slaughtered( for the lack of a better word) so they are Halal, that's how i understand it.

people of the book

The term "people of the book" (أهل الكتاب‎) has a very specific meaning in Islamic law. That meaning is Christians and Jews, sometimes Sabians are included as well. The term people of the book does not include Rastafarians, it cannot include Rastas as Islam predates the Rastafari movement by many centuries. Please explain why Rastafari is included in the definition used for "people of the book" on this page. nableezy - 21:51, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Just so: when Islam originated, when describing which peoples fell into the category "people of the book", they couldn't very well have included in the enumeration groups that would some day form around the Book, but that didn't exist at the time. Are you sure that means that such groups wouldn't be included when they came along? —Largo Plazo (talk) 03:00, 1 August 2009 (UTC)
A thousand percent sure. A major tenet of Islamic teaching is that the Quran is the last "book". It recognizes books prior to it and those who followed those books prior to Islam. Those followers of those books make up the "people of the book". You can look at the people of the book article, but here are some other sources defining the term: People of the Book (ahl al-kitaab), meaning Jews and Christians; ahl al kitaab, the People of the Book - a term generically applied to Jews, Christians, and Sabians. (ahl al-kitaab is the transliteration of the Arabic for People of the Book) nableezy - 03:41, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

Alcohol - removing non factual info

I've I'm removing removed last paragraph of Alcohol subsection. Coz:

  • The sentence Alcohol derived from a source other than grape (or its by-product) and date is allowed in very small quantities under the Sunni Hanafi madhab.

This paragraph represents a wrong idea. So, removing. » nafSadh did say 10:29, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

Alevi people

Alevi people of Anatolia and Balkans do not eat rabbit as well whilst consuming alcohol is fine for them. This is not placed here. [1] [2]Cemyildiz (talk) 14:34, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

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MOVE!

I've undone move made by new user {u|Afwaaja}} who moved page Islamic dietary laws to Muslim dietary laws over redirect without any discussion. If anyone thinks there is a need for move, please start a MOVE procedure using Template:Requested move. – nafSadh did say 20:38, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

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Islamic dietary Law during Ramadan

My addition to this article was a section about Ramadan and the dietary laws associated with it. I felt it was neccessary to discuss the fasting laws during Ramadan which is an essential part of Islam as a religion. Please comment with any questions and feel free to add more details to this new section — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jhaus07 (talk • contribs) 20:45, 1 November 2019 (UTC)

Difference between Muslim .... and Islamic .... ?

Greetings,

This is basically continuation of first round of discussion which took place previously @ Talk:Islamic literature and Wikipedia:Village_pump_(miscellaneous)

Present Wikipedia tendency

An average tendency on Wikipedia seems to be of transforming word Muslim into Islam or Islamic wherever possible without visiting nuanced aspects. As a small example title Islamic feminism is nuanced and correct since it specifically refers to theory of Islam. But is it correct to redirect title Muslim women to Women in Islam those who are not exposed to nuances might think so. Some might take refuge to fallacy of Appeal to popularity, but nuanced view suggests otherwise. Pl. do read on below given copy pasted discussion from Talk:Islamic literature

Here comes concept of normative.

  • Quick google search of term Normative gives definition as "...establishing, relating to, or deriving from a standard or norm, especially of behaviour...."

Is present lack of nuanced approach, risks throwing in and enforcing a sided normative. All Islamic art can be called Muslim art, but whether all Muslim art can be called Islamic art. For example recently one Saira Khan recently openly declared of not being practicing Muslim, and still we can not list her in List of former Muslims so formally remains a Muslim at the most one can categories them in Cultural Muslim; take one more point, there can be former Muslim who reverts to Islam is it easy to classify their art Muslim or Islamic ? Or take example of M.F. Husain many of his drawings are of living things so whether it is safe to classify his art Muslim or Islamic ? :File:Khamseh Nizami 001.jpg is included in article Islamic Art how far it can be called Islamic Art or is it safer to call it Muslim art?

Those Wikipedians who do have lesser familiarity with Muslims or Islam usually tend to take position I/We don't have understanding on the topic, pl. go over to WP talk:WikiProject Islam, even when topic is critical of Islam that is categorized Islamic project pl. go over to WP talk:WikiProject Islam. Doesn't it risks throwing in and enforcing a sided normative?

Scholarship highlighting this issue

1) According to [2] Muslim is purely someone who practices Islam and Islamic is anything influenced by Islam or produced by Muslims.
2.1) According to M.M. Knight, when one does not speak for real Islam (i.e.'an abstracted ideal' that floats above, Muslim, human cultures but speaks for 'lived traditions') it is preferable to use the term Muslim instead of the term Islam or Islamic.[3]
2.2) M.M. Knight further says,terms 'Islam/ Islamic' imposes claim of normativity, which is distinct with lived experiences hence need not be conflated.[4] (My emphasis)

Question of Grammar

One copyeditor user Dakinijones points out his difficulties @ Talk:Islamic literature, he says:

...According to [3] Muslim is purely someone who practices Islam and Islamic is anything influenced by Islam or produced by Muslims. So I’ve done some of the (requested via women’s rights article) copyediting on that basis. Please correct my ignorances with sources if wrong. Thanks!...

Similar points of grammar have been discussed @ Wikipedia:Village_pump_(miscellaneous) similar to [4] their point is architecture, music, art, thought are not humans so saying Muslim architecture, Muslim music, Muslim art, Muslim thought, should be avoided.

Since personally I am more concerned with normative I am okay with Muslim architecture, Muslim music, Muslim art, Muslim thought since those are more inclusive terms in spite issues of grammar inaccuracies, but terms are understandable to human mind; my human brain can very well understand those terms as 'architecture/ music/ art/ thought created by Muslims.'


Nuanced differences and other Wikipedia articles

Please see below given table.

List of articles With Word Muslim or Islam in title
Muslim Islam Comment
Muslim dietary laws This needs to be Islamic dietary laws ?
Apostasy in Islam Article Former Muslim of Ex Muslim needs to exist separately because title Apostasy in Islam has Islamic normative that atheists don't share?
Islamic culture Needs to be Muslim culture?
Islamic literature Needs to be Muslim literature?

Islamic Golden Age

Needs to be Muslim Golden Age ?
Women in Islam Need to be Muslim women?
Islamophobia Need to be Anti Muslim Sentiment?
  • Would term Muslim culture represent cultural diversity among Muslim communities over time and places reflect better than monolithic representation in term "Islamic culture"?
  • Can we draw a parallel, In between Your point differentiating between "Women in Islam" and "Muslim women" and Apostasy in Islam and Former muslims being both valid, and have entirely different normative directions?

I am very well aware of grammar related points of Maproom & Louis P. Boog maintained by them and others @ Wikipedia:Village_pump_(miscellaneous) and not too keen to break grammar related rules but want other readers also to be aware of issues involved for wider consultations. Bookku (talk) 11:25, 3 March 2021 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ http://connection.ebscohost.com/c/articles/70044754/alevilik-bektasilikteki-tavsan-inancinin-mitolojik-k-kleri-zerine
  2. ^ http://euobserver.com/news/27323
  3. ^ Knight, Michael Muhammad (2016-05-24). Magic In Islam. Penguin. p. 24. ISBN 978-1-101-98349-2.
  4. ^ Knight, Michael Muhammad (2016-05-24). Magic In Islam. Penguin. p. 24. ISBN 978-1-101-98349-2.

Lizard meat

This page mentions lizard not being forbidden. (I don't really know anything about it and didn't come to argue, only noting the discrepancy) https://islamqa.info/en/answers/2005/eating-fish-eyes--88.100.176.55 (talk) 06:44, 17 May 2022 (UTC)

The source you provided is not reliable. Meatsgains(talk) 16:02, 17 May 2022 (UTC)

Is donkey halal

I think that donkey halal is 46.22.24.203 (talk) 23:38, 16 June 2022 (UTC)

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