Talk:Ioannis Kapodistrias/Archive 1

Untitled

The blatant sycophancy of the opening section ("true democrat etc.") needs to be toned down a wee bit.

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I'm just thinking out loud here, but could there be any confusion between Giovanni da Capistrano and Giovanni Capo d'Istria? :) --Joy [shallot] 21:05, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)

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I doubt it: the surnames are sufficiently different.

I would like to see the addition of his name in the Cyrillic alphabet, since he was, after all, Russian foreign minister.--Jpbrenna 19:19, 25 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Ayion Spyridon

The person who removed the material from the 1911 encyclopedia Brittanica also removed my personal pictures of the Kapodistrias assasination spot from Nafplio, and the icon of St. Spyriodon in the doorway above it. If you would like the have them included here, I will upload them to Wikisource so that they can be used here and in other versions. --Jpbrenna 05:21, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Does anyone know where was he buried ??Was it in Corfu or Nauplio ??

name of entry

I noticed that the title of the article has the name "Capodistria", which seems like an Italian version of the name but is not found in the article itself; whereas in the first few lines the more familiar Greek version is given (Kapodistrias). Also, the article to his brother Augustinos has the name "Kapodistrias". Is it possible to change the name of the article to be more in keeping with these observations, or is it set in stone once the article is created? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Horatio325 (talk • contribs) 13:43, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Good point Horatio. I was wondering about the same thing. Let's see what can be done about this. Dr.K. 15:10, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Moved. It makes a lot better sense to use his Greek name rather than the translation of his name in other languages. _{El Greco}^(talk) 16:19, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

On the real origin of Capodistria

Did this guy have a family last name ? [For example : Viscount Castlereagh, 2nd Marquess of Londonderry, his name is Robert Stewart (18 June 1769 in Dublin – 12 August 1822) his "friend" in the Congress of Viena] because as far as I know Kapodistria is a adopted last name....when he was studying in Italy, he was backed up economically from the nobel Venetian family of Victor Kapo d'Istria, which himself was of Albanian origin from Vlora, and had been in Italy since the end of XVth and beginning of XVIth century. here are some facts which I hope will give an answer to that. The family of Joani Kapodistria moved from Himara (Vlora in Albania), because of Turkish reprisals and retaliations against his father and his uncle, who were participant in the Albanian (Pro Venetia) revolt against the Turkish, in the Vlora region . His father’s name was Andon Gjika, his uncle was called Gjin Gjika, they both were Albanian. From Himara they moved to Gjirokastra in south Albania, where Andon had two sons, Viron and Gjon ( English – John, Greek – Joannis or Janis), but because Turks learned about them, Andon moved to Corfu with his two sons. Joannis uncle stayed in Gjirokastra and latter on was converted to Islam with name Ahmet Bej. In Gjirokastra, in the district called Manalat, their house is Culture Monument and it is protected by government. Andon Gjika, in Corfu had two more sons, Agustin and Grigor. So the birthplace of Joannis is not Corfu, but it is Gjirokastra in Albania and his name by birth is Gjon Gjika.

For this you can read the greek historian Panagiotis Aravantinos, Greek Encyclopedia, Vol V, page 402, and Trifon Evangelidi on his book “ The history of Joanis Kapodistrias”, also the greek newspapers “NEA EFHMERIDHA” of 10 and 12 May 1887. There is an essay written by Prof. Eqerem Çabej as well. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Special:Contributions/Mavronjoti (talk) 18:49, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

A few remarks:

1. Please read WP:RS and WP:V and WP:Vandalism
2. In the Western World Encyclopaedia Britannica and Encarta are considered reliable sources. Therefore if you add nonsense to the article like you did you confuse the reader because you add that Kapodistrias was born in Albania and the reliable sources say something different. This is considered vandalism.
3. If you have genuine photocopies of the alleged newspaper and the Greek encyclopedia send them to Encyclopedia Britannica and Encarta in the West to evaluate and verify and if you persuade them to change their articles I will change the article but not before then. Thank you. Dr.K. (talk) 17:55, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Hej Doctor,

Read this : Scholarship "Wikipedia relies heavily upon the established literature created by scientists, scholars and researchers around the world. Items that fit this criterion are usually considered reliable. However, they may be outdated by more recent research, or controversial in the sense that there are alternative scholarly explanations. Wikipedia articles should point to all major scholarly interpretations of a topic." What is clear here, buddy, is that you are albanophobic, and that complex has blinded you .... The ones I mentioned above are Greek historians, and good ones for that matter. I can name you juornalists like Vasil Zoto, Teodor Bovo and Athanas Petrilli who are greek as well but not as blind as you.--Mavronjoti (talk) 18:09, 13 February 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.20.70.228 (talk) 17:43, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

First I will not reply to libellous slander from an anonymous user in Albania, except this once. Just to remind you to be civil when addressing other users as per WP:CIVIL, something that obviously you have some time to get used to. Second I am glad you learned how to spell buddy after I left a message on your talk page. Last time you spelled it Body. Now even though I told you that we cannot be buddies especially with anonymous IPs you insist on calling me so. That speaks volumes about your presumptuous character. Finally it is not Hej Doctor but it is spelled Hey doctor. But enough of that. I will not serve as your English tutor even though you seem to badly need one. Dr.K. (talk) 17:56, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

As I thought... Anything on the subject? because you didn't, I guess, come here to brag about your level 5 english --Mavronjoti (talk) 18:09, 13 February 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.20.70.228 (talk) 18:03, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Even though I just mentioned above that I cannot continue a discussion with users who use slander and libellous accusations as a means to debate and despite my better judgement I will copy and paste my comments in one of your IPs so to make clear why I mentioned the level of your English:

"User talk:80.78.70.196

Regarding your comment on the edit summary on Ioannis Kapodistrias (diff): quote: what do you think the newspapers of his time printed in Greek language are lying? come to your senses body. A few remarks:

1. Please read WP:RS and WP:V and WP:Vandalism
2. In the Western World Encyclopaedia Britannica and Encarta are considered reliable sources. Therefore if you add nonsense to the article like you did you confuse the reader because you add that Kapodistrias was born in Albania and the reliable sources say something different. This is considered vandalism.
3. If you have genuine photocopies of your alleged newspaper and the Greek encyclopedia send them to Encyclopedia Britannica and Encarta in the West to evaluate and verify and if you persuade them to change their articles I will change the article but not before then.
4. In the English language body means the Human body, therefore your edit summary does not make any sense; except if you were talking to your own body. In this case I do hope you recovered.
5. If by any chance you meant buddy instead of body, I don't think we ever met.
6. Please stop adding nonsense to the article because you will be blocked.

Dr.K. (talk) 17:40, 1 February 2008 (UTC)"

You see there is nothing wrong with knowing little or even no English at all. But if you tell someone in your edit summary:

"Come to your senses body", in other words if you wish to use language as a weapon to assault other users then it will be expected of you that you know the language a little better. Therefore my advice to you to improve your English was not meant to showcase my level of English, as you so presumptuously state, but to indicate to you that if you are in the character assassination business you should at least be grammatically and syntactically correct so to avoid confusion as stated above with buddy and body. Finally up to now you have called me:

• blind,
• albanophobic
• and you told me to come to my senses (if that's what you meant and you were not actually talking to your own body). I don't know where you acquired your bad manners but arguments should be won by logic not by using attempted intimidation tactics such as the ones used in re-education camps somewhere sometime ago. Finally I restate to you what I wrote on the above IP's (your IP?, friends' IP?) talk page:

1. If you have genuine photocopies of your alleged newspaper and the Greek encyclopedia send them to Encyclopedia Britannica and Encarta in the West to evaluate and verify and if you persuade them to change their articles I will change the article but not before then. Having said that I will not reply any further to you or any other IP on this particular subject as I officially retire from this debate. Dr.K. (talk) 19:59, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

• • • It is very clear, that your tendency to go away, on purpose, from the real point in discussion here, appearing as a english and "bureaucratic" logic teacher, sent the documents in this and in that adress....makes you look so empty of arguments and facts. The subject here is that the story of Kapodistria you have posted here is a fallacy and need to be repaired quickly...In questions here is not the messenger but the message... wake up buddy --Mavronjoti (talk) 21:28, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

• According to this : "Scholarship "Wikipedia relies heavily upon the established literature created by scientists, scholars and researchers around the world. Items that fit this criterion are usually considered reliable. However, they may be outdated by more recent research, or controversial in the sense that there are alternative scholarly explanations. Wikipedia articles should point to all major scholarly interpretations of a topic." I beleive, you have to add in this entry the info. about his birth place and his last name, however you may think and you like it or not, there are studies on his biography, from greek historians and journalist of the XIX-th century, that are mentioned above. You check the references....If you retire from this debate then do not undo my changes. best regards--Mavronjoti (talk) 12:54, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

What vandalism ?

Yes,yes... I forgot to sign in because to upset with the bias entry that you try so hard to keep in place, and to upset with the way you choose to shut up all the opposing voices and threating them with all kinds of violations and blocking... please be real, your credibility is on the line... The only reference you have brought in the entry "Joanis Capodistria" is other encyclopidias which by the way have made me to bring up a questions : Why is there a Wikipedia when you say that only Encarta and Britanica can be brought to reference, and if I want to change something in Wikipedia I have to try to send geniune copies to two encyclopedias before mentioned, and try to change their entry first ?????? please you either don't understand or you don't want to understand that wikipedia has come to be what it is because of the general believe that most studies published have political and bias tendency, so, to be able to see the truth on anything you must be able to read what other interpretations say on the given subject... but again you are not interested on that because it is a side of medalion which you have been told for so long not to see, your eyes and your mind are to weak to notice that the other truth can be possible as well... Why are you so afraid that people can get informed and judge by theirselvs what is the truth and what isn't ?! And by the way this can be the first step forward for other people to study thoroughly on this subject. What you are saying or at least are giving the impression that NO MORE STUDIES on this subject ha ha ha When it comes to the entry Bridge of Arta it says: "According to chronicler of Epirus Panayiotis Aravantinos, the bridge was constructed during Ancient Roman times. However, according to some traditions it was built when Arta became capital of the Despotate of Epirus, possibly under Michael II Ducas (1230-1271). Other alleged construction dates vary from 1602 to 1606. Seraphim, the Archbishop of Arta, has noted that the bridge was built, according to some tradition, by an Artan grocer." If this guy, Aravantinos, is not reliable than why it si brought as reference to this entry and can not be accepted to the other one ???????--Mavronjoti (talk) 09:02, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

It doesnt matter

few remarks:

1. Please read WP:RS and WP:V and WP:Vandalism
2. In the Western World Encyclopaedia Britannica and Encarta are considered reliable sources. Therefore if you add nonsense to the article like you did you confuse the reader because you add that Kapodistrias was born in Albania and the reliable sources say something different. This is considered vandalism.
3. If you have genuine photocopies of the alleged newspaper and the Greek encyclopedia send them to Encyclopedia Britannica and Encarta in the West to evaluate and verify and if you persuade them to change their articles I will change the article but not before then. Thank you

You already discussed it with the above editor and it is original research so its not going in.Megistias (talk) 11:41, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Calm down, everybody.

Please calm down. Tassoskessaris, your insulting and arrogant tone towards the newcomer have been extremely poor style. Please cut it, this only needlessly heatens up conflict. Also, there was no grounds for sockpuppetry allegations, we all know who Mavronjoti (talk · contribs) is. He is a legitimate user bringing forward what he thinks are reliable sources. Maybe they are not, maybe he's mistaken. We'll check that. There is no deadline.

I thought it wouldn't come down to this Future Perfect at Sunrise. You being an Admin and since all the Admins I met up to now have been extremely courteous people whom I deeply respect. This is the first time I will censure an Admin but so be it. You call me arrogant and insulting? What exactly do you think this phrase is: "Come to your senses body" if not insulting and a prime example of thuggish behaviour? And anyway how am I supposed to know he was not actually talking to his own body? Is there no defence to such behaviour? What about the other comments of this user such as blind and albanophobic. You then turn around and dismiss sock puppetry charges. That's irresponsible. This user has never edited this unfortunate article under his name, yet he edit warred frequently with 3 different IPs. And you don't call this sockpuppetry. You call my behaviour insulting yet never once did I utter a single epithet with this provocateur who kept on calling me buddy, blind, and using grade B psychology also insulted me by accusing me that I have a complex despite being told that this is improper. You of all people, being an Admin, you should have exhibited behaviour more respectful toward long established editors who never once insulted anyone in a two year stellar record like mine. You are completely out of line. Enough said. Dr.K. (talk) 13:45, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Quote: we all know who Mavronjoti (talk · contribs) is from your statement above. That's utterly misleading because we don't know who Mavronjoti is. He has another 3 IPs behind him. Why are you not including those as well? Dr.K. (talk) 13:49, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

No. These postings [1], [2] were haughty and arrogant in tone, and the addition of the phrase "in Albania" in the second (as if that somehow made the other person less worthy of response than if he had been posting from elsewhere?!) could very well have been construed as a touch of racism. Sorry, but I stand by my criticism of your tone. Fut.Perf. ☼ 13:50, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Haughty and arrogant? What would you have done if somebody told you the things this user told me? Am I supposed to sit like a duck and take it? Anyway Future Perfect you are completely out of line and out of your depth in this. Dr.K. (talk) 14:00, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Quote again: He is a legitimate user bringing forward what he thinks are reliable sources Under 3 different IPs and sources noone heard of, without any quotes? This is an open call for all falsifiers of history to come with multiple IPs and unknown names to visit Wikpedia. We have in the article five top notch sources of the highest scholarship and you seem to entertain third rate unknown sources from a user in Lernaean Hydra mode.Dr.K. (talk) 14:01, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I still stand by what I said. If you want to discuss it further, let's take it to our user talk pages, not here. Fut.Perf. ☼ 14:10, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

No. If there is any discussion to be had, its place is here. It is a matter of principle that involves the core of the functionality of Wikipedia and what it means to be a good faith editor with great citations versus sockpuppeteers with unknown citations and a nationalist agenda. But I forgot. If I mention their nationality in order to reveal their motives I will be accused of racism as you did just above. Anything else to gag me? Dr.K. (talk) 16:25, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm not going to respond further to this thread on this page. My only response to this will be on your talk page in a minute. Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:29, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Everybody, stop revert-warring now. Megistias, you again breached the revert parole [3] and will most likely be blocked by somebody soon. You really need to change your attitude.

Mavronjoti, if you have sources that seem to contradict an established picture in a lot of tertiary literature, you'll have to do better documenting them. Please give us precise bibliographical references, both to the ultimate source you are talking about, and to any intermediate sources through which you may have learned about those others. Also, please give precise summaries of what they are saying; preferably with literal quotes where necessary.

As for the authority of Britannica, it's funny, because just yesterday we had an Albanian contributor at Talk:Chaonians arguing (against Greek contributors) that we should cite Britannica as if it was God's Truth. I had to tell him it's not. Britannica makes quite a few mistakes. If we can get specialist literature such as original quotes from biographical books on the subject, they beat Britannica any time.

So, now, have a cup of tea and let's see those sources. Fut.Perf. ☼ 11:50, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Just for the record, Mavronjoti, you are now evidently also well past 3RR. Prepare for a block and for being placed under a revert limitation for the next few months. I'm sure some friendly admin will be around to install those soon. Fut.Perf. ☼ 11:58, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

User:Mavronjoti has been blocked for a short period for 3rr just to gain some breather space, please may I suggest other editors do likewise. If I can be of any help please don't hesitate to give me a shout. ^Khukri 12:09, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

User:Megistias also for breach of revert parole. ^Khukri 13:32, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Gents (and/or ladies) having had a little time now to look through the subject matter, and the edits, first thing I will say is editors are too quick to discuss/attack the editors instead of the edits. Also discussion does not mean putting your point of view (with or without) sources on the talk page and then edit the article to match. It means putting across your position (it is not a point of view) with corroborating sources, and having good faith to let the editor have time to digest this information and respond before adding it to the article. It is clear some edits have been contentious, but if you take this imposed break to read up on WP:RS, WP:NOR & WP:VERIFY it will make everyone's editing much simpler. Talk first, then discuss the edits and not your opinions about the editor, and then edit the article once and only once consensus has been achieved. I am 100% neutral in this matter and if any parties require any help, please don't hesitate to give me a shout. ^Khukri 13:32, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, Kukri. And I'll double this very good piece of advice with my own attempt at fatherly (??! well, hmmph) admonition, which I've posted at User talk:Megistias#Advice. It's really for everybody though. Hope you won't mind the moralizing tone. :-) Fut.Perf. ☼ 13:45, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

And now for something completely different ...

We have a cut-and-paste move to fix here. Somebody back in 2004 moved this article to John Capodistria, and then in November 2007 somebody made a dirty move back here. Please, everybody, never never never never try to move a page by manually copying and pasting its contents. It destroys the page history and is a nuisance to fix.

Now gimme ten minutes and please don't try to edit the article while I fix this. Don't be surprised if the article suddenly vanishes for a few minutes. Fut.Perf. ☼ 12:38, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Done, okay now. Fut.Perf. ☼ 12:45, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Sorry about the November 2007 move. I didn't have a full understanding of the move feature so I just copy and pasted. _{El Greco}^(talk) 15:52, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

No prob. BTW, just for later reference, there are situations where a clean move back cannot be done for technical reasons without admin buttons. That happens when a page has previously be moved or redirected several times. In such cases, you just need to call in an admin to do the move for you. Fut.Perf. ☼ 15:59, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Mavronjoti

This discussion was copied and pasted from my talk page so that it can be seen here.

Let me just get this clarified, once and for all, categorically: User:Mavronjoti was not sockpuppeting. If you still think he was, you need to take a quiet half hour off and study WP:SOCK and the nature of dynamic IP assignment, of which you seem to have a somewhat shaky understanding. I very strongly recommend you drop this point, because it crosses the line into harassment.

I'm all for having a critical review of whatever strange claims it is this user is proposing, and if necessary giving him a clear message how seriously we take WP:V, but let's keep it clean, WP:AGF, matter-of-fact, and focussed on the content not on the contributor. Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:35, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Trying to evade violating the 3RR rule by hiding behind 3 IPs if it is not sockpuppetry it is devious editing practices. Accusing me of harassment for pointing these devious practices based on nuances and semantics after you accused me of racism is in itself harassment. Dr.K. (talk) 18:01, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

No. Answered on your talk. (And I still recommend leaving it there. This talk is for discussing the article. User talk pages are for discussing user issues.) Fut.Perf. ☼ 18:09, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Mavronjoti's sources

Heheh. If everybody here goes on like this, the result will be I'll learn some Albanian :-)

So, I went on a search to see where Mavronjoti might have got his claims from. Apparently, it goes back to a guy called Arben Llalla, who calls himself a professor of history at the Albanian University of Tetova. I have no idea what his academic credentials are, if any, it doesn't look as if he's ever published anything in any language besides Albanian, or that he has ever been quoted by anybody else except Albanian message boards. Here is his personal homepage, with a nice collection of his texts. All his output seems to be on issues of "Greater Albania", especially Albanians-Greek ethnic issues: All the heros of the Greek revolution were Albanians; Alexander the Great was Illyrian; Albanian derives from Pelasgian and is the oldest Indo-European language of all. That's just what I've been able to decipher (and I don't really speak a word of Albanian, mind you.) But it all sounds familiar, doesn't it?

Well, okay, so much for reliable sources, I guess. Sorry, Mavronjoti, doesn't look too good for your claims. Fut.Perf. ☼ 23:00, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Great work. You went beyond the call of duty to research this and you did a great service to Wikipedia. This is a great piece of investigative work. Dr.K. (talk) 23:51, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Hey where is Arben Llalla’s, page because I can not find it? The only things that he writes on Albanian message boards, are for Kosovo or Macedonia, din’t see any Albanians-Greek ethnic issues. If the Greek historian Panagiotis Aravantinos, Greek Encyclopedia, Vol V, page 402, and Trifon Evangelidi on his book “The history of Joanis Kapodistrias”, also the Greek newspapers “NEA EFHMERIDHA” of 10 and 12 May 1887 are and should be reliable sources though. As Taulant, never heard of Ioannis Kapodistrias to be Albanian? I am so confused. --Taulant23 (talk) 07:45, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

p.s. Dr.K. (talk) ,be nice to the Albanians and respect their thoughts(bad or good). I can teach you Albanian & Arvanitika, and maybe we can have some Engineering Aerospace talk too

Hi Taulant, sorry about this but I didn't see your signed comment above and then when you did not sign your p.s. I thought it was coming from Future Perfect and part of my reply was directed to him. Thanks for your kind offer and your message on my talk page to which I replied. I didn't meet you before so please excuse my clumsy response. The reply about Engineering and Albanians from below is now directed to you. (I almost feel like a traffic cop). I was not expecting such a nice invitation from someone I never met before and I thank you for it. Falemnderit shumë and see you around. Dr.K. (talk) 15:21, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the (friendly) admonition Future. It is unneeded however. This has nothing to do with ethnicity, especially with Albanians with whom I grew up in Greece and some were dear school mates of mine. I always try to be friendly especially to newcomers and I am open to new ideas by trade. But if epithet throwing, misleadingly familiar language (terms like buddy), grade B psychology with the purpose to denigrate, among other things, coupled with Internet type smoke and mirrors in the form of multiple IPs and dubious sources are employed you would excuse me if I don't jump in the air with friendly anticipation. Maybe we can assign this task to the cheerleading section of Wikipedia. Anyway I consider this unfortunate fracas between us closed. I hold no ill feelings toward you and yes I would like to talk with you about topics I enjoy far more, like Engineering for instance. Thanks for opening up this opportunity and take care. Dr.K. (talk) 14:01, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the words of reconciliation, which I very much appreciate. Just for the record, the sentence above to which you apparently responded wasn't from me. :-) (I'm afraid I could neither teach you Albanian, nor would I be a very good person for having a talk about airspace engineering :-)) Fut.Perf. ☼ 14:42, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

I don't know what happened. It must have been the fog of editing or the karma of the Internet. In any case it's all good. Thanks for the correction Future. I reiterate my previous comments about the case being closed etc. (from the preceding section just above) and feel free to replace your favourite subject as a point of future discussion between us, in lieu of Engineering or Albanian. (Thinking aloud) Quote: "future discussion"? and I am talking to Future Perfect at Sunrise? It must be karma. (thought finished). Dr.K. (talk) 15:00, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

(further semi-off-topic discussion of Arben Llalla's page and claims moved to User talk:Future Perfect at Sunrise. 09:13, 16 February 2008 (UTC))

Hi Dr.K, I realy apologise for the things I wrote that got you upset, for words like buddy or blind I mean, (even though I don't understand how a person can get that quickly upset for calling him/her buddy ?????? it can happen rareley between humans in the cases of hidden prejudgmental racist feeligs). Beside this, your statment like "grade B psychology with the purpose to denigrate", don't make you honorable either. Yes I enter from three computers, two in the offices and one at home, yes sometimes I forget to sign in, and so what, what is your bases here? "Dubious sources" are Greek historians that you or others have brought up as references in deferent entries (example above). Yes it Prof. Arben Llalla, but it is from magazine "Albanica"... that is still beside the point. This Prof. tell you the Title, volume nr., page, which make the references verifiable on the Aravantinos, and gives you the author and the Title Trifon Evangelidi on his book “The history of Joanis Kapodistrias”, on the second which makes the study of Evangelidi a source that has to be mentioned. Again verify it and don't go after the messenger, being Prof. Llalla or me. Untill then, I beleive that in the entry has to be mentioned that there is some studies which say that Kapodistria was born and was originaly from Gjirokastra, South Albania. Don't hide it. Best regards--Mavronjoti (talk) 21:34, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

You write ""Dubious sources" are Greek historians that you or others have brought up as references in deferent entries (example above)." what sources are you referring to?Megistias (talk) 21:39, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Mavronjoti, after what I've seen from Mr Llalla, I certainly wouldn't take his word for it that those 19th-century writings say what he claims they say. If we can get those other sources directly and check what they actually contain, that will be fine. The claims you quoted also said there was something written by Eqrem Çabej. Now, I don't know why Çabej would have written anything on this topic, but in any case, unlike Llalla, Çabej is actually a serious scholar of good international standing. If that article by Çabej can be shown to actually exist and contain something pertinent, we can quote that. We won't quote Llalla. Fut.Perf. ☼ 21:56, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Ok. Fut.Perf. fair enough. I will try to find Cabej's esse on this... but you can still verify if the greek historians mentioned have written about Kapodistria.--Mavronjoti (talk) 02:36, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

Magistias

Hi there, The sentence : "Dubious sources" are Greek historians that you or others have brought up as references in deferent entries (example above), was mentioned in the direction of Dr.K, and your question, what sources are you referring to? is the right questions because I probably wasn't very clear on that. Let me explain. Dr.K, says that Aravantinos and Evangelidis are dubious sources, well that could be true if those historians were not mentioned at all at any entry, but the contrary is true. In the case of Aravantinos, he was brought forward as references in some other entries such as : Bridge of Arta, Sarakatsani, so why in the Joanis Kapodistria he can be called as "dubious source"? But that's beside the point couse I'll try to find the original writtings and bring the copies as foto for everybody to see. Thanks for asking anyway. Best regards.--Mavronjoti (talk) 08:44, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Well i didn't use him for one and when presented with an unorthodox view editors want verification as you very well understand.User TassosKessaris told you "#Please read WP:RS and WP:V and WP:Vandalism

1. In the Western World Encyclopaedia Britannica and Encarta are considered reliable sources. Therefore if you add nonsense to the article like you did you confuse the reader because you add that Kapodistrias was born in Albania and the reliable sources say something different. This is considered vandalism.
2. If you have genuine photocopies of the alleged newspaper and the Greek encyclopedia send them to Encyclopedia Britannica and Encarta in the West to evaluate and verify and if you persuade them to change their articles I will change the article but not before then." Which are a fact in here.Our sources are fine and if yours don't fulfill the above criteria even if they come from an already used writer cant be used.Tassos rightfully told you to do just that if you dont understand it please read the linked words above. Megistias (talk) 09:36, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

So when you present the data we can add them.Thankou.Megistias (talk) 09:37, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Just for the record

This is just for history: I copy and paste the end of the Hej Doctor section above, with bold for emphasis on my final statement:

1. If you have genuine photocopies of your alleged newspaper and the Greek encyclopedia send them to Encyclopedia Britannica and Encarta in the West to evaluate and verify and if you persuade them to change their articles I will change the article but not before then. Having said that I will not reply any further to you or any other IP on this particular subject as I officially retire from this debate. Dr.K. (talk) 19:59, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

• • • It is very clear, that your tendency to go away, on purpose, from the real point in discussion here, appearing as a english and "bureaucratic" logic teacher, sent the documents in this and in that adress....makes you look so empty of arguments and facts. The subject here is that the story of Kapodistria you have posted here is a fallacy and need to be repaired quickly...In questions here is not the messenger but the message... wake up buddy --Mavronjoti (talk) 21:28, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

• According to this : "Scholarship "Wikipedia relies heavily upon the established literature created by scientists, scholars and researchers around the world. Items that fit this criterion are usually considered reliable. However, they may be outdated by more recent research, or controversial in the sense that there are alternative scholarly explanations. Wikipedia articles should point to all major scholarly interpretations of a topic." I beleive, you have to add in this entry the info. about his birth place and his last name, however you may think and you like it or not, there are studies on his biography, from greek historians and journalist of the XIX-th century, that are mentioned above. You check the references....If you retire from this debate then do not undo my changes. best regards--Mavronjoti (talk) 12:54, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Despite Mavronjoti's subsequent two (2) replies I did not enter into a new discussion with him. In fact I announced to him that I had retired from the debate at: 19:59, 13 February 2008 (UTC).

Conclusion: The subsequent edit dated 07:50, 15 February 2008 including the harsh term cut was unwarranted because there was nothing to cut. I had already retired from the debate. Dr.K. (talk) 16:55, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Name? Ancestry?

I'd like to read something in this article about Kapodistrias' origins--where did his family come from?

I'm told he was of Italian descent and that he was born with the name Giovanni Capo d'Istria. True? Tom129.93.17.106 (talk) 19:20, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Please read Ioannis_Kapodistrias#Legacy_and_Honours. The place of his ancestors is Koper in Slovenia and it is mentoned in the section. His family name was Vitori. Then his family got a title and they were named after their place of origin (Istria, another name for Koper). I found a reliable citation for the name Vitori and I will add it in the article. Thanks for reminding me. Dr.K. (talk) 22:03, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

You can also check: Ioannis_Kapodistrias#Background_and_early_career. It's got the latest info along with two brand new citations. Take care. Tasos (Dr.K. (talk) 23:27, 21 June 2008 (UTC))

Family tree published in K. Paparigopoulos "History of the Greek Nation", Eleutheroudakis, Athens, 1935. (In Greek language. I simply turned the Gr. letters to the equivalent L.)

Head: Ieronymos.

1) Victor 2) Nicolaos 3) Paola Moustoxydi

From Victor: 1) Viaros 2) Nikolaos 3) Angelos 4) Benettos 5) Ieronymos 6) Paulos 7) Steloula Vlassopoulou.

From Viaros: 1) Spyridon 2)Nikolaos 3) Antonios 4) Fioretta Trypherou 5) Iakovos

From Antonios: 1) Viaros 2) Victor 3) Spyraggelos 4) Ieronymos 5) Isabella Prosalenti 6) Milo (female)

From Viaros: 1) Antonios 2) Victoria Loupina 3) Andriana 4) Antonios-Maria (I take it as a double catholic male name, not Antonios married to Maria) 5) Antonios-Ieronymos 6) Antonios-Xaverios-Stanislaos (Four Antonios at this level???)

From Antonios-Maria: 1) Viaros 2) John Kapodistria, the Governor 3) Ioannis-Maria-Augoustinos 4) Victor 5) Georgios 6) Stella Polyla 7) Maria Rodostamou.

Under the family tree the author cites Ragavi: "Kapodistria family originates in Dalmatia and indeed from the omonymous town (I suppose means Istria). Their former name was Vittori, and the first to be named Kapodistria was Victor Vittori who fled in 1373 to Corfu for political reasons. The title of Conte was given to the family by Carolos-Emmanuel, dux of Pedemontium and King of Cyprus in 1689, and was recognized by the Venetian Democracy in 1796. .... The family branch who inherited the title was that of Ioannes Kapodistrias, the Governor ... Viaros Kapodistrias, son of Ieronymos, was born in 1623 and got the title of Conte".

Can some of this information be included in the article? May I comment on the surnames of some ladies. It seems that very early in the family tree some of the ladies are married to Greeks, as the surnames are Greek, e.g. Moustoxydi, Vlassopoulos, Tryferos, Rodostamos, Polylas. All well-known greek families. Prosalentis is also well known, thanks to the painter, but am not sure if is Gr. or latin or something. Probably Gr. from "Proussa", the city in Asia Minor. Other surnames are not given. --Skylax30 (talk) 09:38, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

Potatoes

The amusing section on administration (including the potato anecdote) is in need of some citations - otherwise I fear it may have to be removed.Jimjamjak (talk) 10:37, 9 February 2012 (UTC)