Talk:Infinite Crisis/Archive 3

One of Each Kind?

Should be discussed in the article how the heroes and villain hooked up to the Anti-Monitor corpse are representative of different lost dimensions?

• Martian Manhunter is one of the founder members of the Earth-1 JLA
• Black Adam has once appeared on Earth-S, and he was a "patch-up", because Alexander Luthor Jr. originally wanted Captain Marvel or Mary Marvel
• Lady Quark was the queen of Earth-6
• The Ray came from the Quality Comics Earth-X
• Power Girl is, except from Kal-L the most powerful being of the lost Earth-2
• Breach is one of the "newly born heroes", the ones who weren't in any of the Multiverse's Earths shown until the Crisis. (Then again, he may represent Earth-4 because he was originally intended to be an updated version of Captain Atom.22:45, 28 January 2006 (UTC))No, never mind, scratch that. They're grabbing Nightshade for that, aren't they?Wryspy 19:08, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

DrTofu83 18:43, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

I'm sure the world won't self-destruct if you wait until next Wednesday for issue #4. Dyslexic agnostic 19:29, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

Not to be nitpicky, but Pariah is not attached to the tuning fork as some of you have said, and the Quality Comics Earth was called Earth-X, not Earth-Quality. Alex mentioned he still needed Nightshade (from the Charlton Comics Earth, Earth Four) for the tuning fork, as he seems to need one hero of each of the Earths which formed the Post-Crisis Earth: One, Two, Four, X and S; plus Lady Quark (the only survivor of Earth-Six) and Breach, who I think is supossed to represent heroes able to trascend dimensional barriers (he was originally intended as a Captain Atom reboot, after all), rather than the new heroes from the Post-Crisis Universe, since it seems that due to Earth-One's dominance, they are classified as Earth-One heroes. Kal-L himself seems to use that classification. On a side note, I've just checked the panel in which Power Girl discovers the tuning fork, and there seem to be three empty places left. One would correspond to Nightshade and another one to Power Girl, but what about the other one? Who are Alex and Superboy going to put there? --Ace ETP 21:24, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

The only Earth with a representative that hasn't been put up there is...Earth 3. And that's Alex himself. I wonder if he would put himself on it. But that would mean that we would most likely have another villain in the shadows. Speaking of which, where the hell has Krona been? Only other significant (alive) player of Crisis that hasn't shown up yet.--Toffile 21:30, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

Maybe Alexander doesn't want anyone from Earth-3 up there. Maybe the tuning fork has representatives of worlds that he wants to collapse into Earth-3, leaving his homeworld as the original. ~~Wryspy

It just occurred to me why Pariah isn't on that tuning fork and why Alex might want him dead: Pariah wasn't from any of the multiple Earths. He was from the pre-Multiverse universe (the single universe that existed before it shattered into multiple universes).

No point taken. On Wednesday we can see what DC is going to say about it, or is the "final truth" will be delayed of another month. I only though that, in case of a new delay, is not reasonable to wait another month to puntualize the single choices of Luthor, and, after the series end, puntualize in the synopsis of the Third issue, the whole "three empty places thing". This is we admit a synopsis "issue by issue" like the one done for Livewires, of course. Krona's final demise is covered in another story, and so another Wikipage, the Krona (comics), where JLA/Avengers is canonized. I agree Kal-L considers Earth-PostCrisis as Earth-One with revised elements, but is still canon the notion from the Crisis on Infinite Earth that the Multiverse itself died that day, and Earth-One Superman is the one from Whenether Happened to the Man of Tomorrow and not the actual Kal-El? DrTofu83 22:18, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

"Whatever Happened To The Man Of Tomorrow?" is a Hypertimeline, and therefore not part of mainstream continuity. The Earth-One Superman is the one we still see these days. He just got his past modified as a result from the Crisis. In fact, since Mark Waid has brought back into continuity most of the Silver Age activities of Zod, Brainiac, and Luthor, the only major difference between the Silver Age Superman and the current one are his tenure as Superboy, Supergirl and Krypto landing on Earth before the Crisis rather than afterwards, and all his adventures with the Legion of Superheroes. And while I see Alex inserting himself in one of the spaces left in the tower as something possible, I seriously doubt it will happen...he represents an Earth that doesn't exist anymore, in no way, unlike the other heroes which represent the five Earths which formed the Post-Crisis one (again, 1, 2, 4, X and S). Alex mentions that both Power Girl and Kal-L will help him, wether they like or not...maybe if his goal actually is to bring back Earth-Two, he needs not only one hero from each of the five main Earths to take control over the inherent nature of existance, but two from Earth-Two so he can give it dominance (plus Lady Quark and Breach, for their special status, whatever it is...). Alexander's apparently darker intentions raise doubts as to wether that is his actual goal or not, but since Catwoman will be preggers after "ONE YEAR LATER..." I can't help but wonder. After all, maybe the villain that is rumored to return in a new form is the Anti-Monitor himself. Alex must have been powered by a source similar to one of the two Monitors, or he wouldn't be able to generate those computers similar to the ones Donna Troy/Harbinger uses. By the way, most of the speculation in this post is fan-wankery and not to be taken seriously...but I have a question I'd like someone with the appropiate Post-Crisis knowledge of the subject to answer, since I can't figure out an answer myself...if the heroes remember the Crisis, but as having happened in a single Universe, where do they think the people that led them through it came from? Pariah, Lyla, Alex...all survivors of the multiverse...where do the heroes think those people were born? Lady Quark was retconned as being the only survivor of a planet in the mainstream Universe Post-Crisis, but that obviously can't apply to all people not meant to survive the destruction of their universes (especially since Lady Quark is the only survivor of an Earth not among the main five to not be somehow powered by the fabric of the Multiverse, unlike those three mentioned before, which is probably why she was given a standard new place in the new Universe and why Alex needs whatever element she brings to it as a surviror of Earth-Six). Not to mention Dark Angel, a survivor of Earth-Seven...where does everyone but Donna Troy figure she came from? And finally, the Earth-One Supergirl, the Earth-Prime Superboy, the Earth-Two Lois Lane and the Earth-Two Superman...all who were instrumental in the weakening and defeat of the Anti-Monitor...where the hell did they supposedly come from? I know characters who died in the Crisis and didn't have a place in the new Universe's history (such as the Earth-Two Robin) were erased from the new combined history altogether after the end of the Crisis, but if the heroes don't remember the deeds performed during the Crisis by those four people I've just mentioned, in exactly what way do they remember the confrontations with the Anti-Monitor? With comics such as Superman/Batman exploring the new Multiverse created via Hypertime, is it crazy to suppose that while the heroes must remember the "Crisis On Infinite Earths" as the "Crisis On Earth", they still recall the intervention of heroes from a few alternate universal planes/timelines? --Ace ETP 02:40, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

Actually, "Whatever..." was the future of Earth-1 Superman. Remember, the Crisis happened across historical periods. It hit in both the 20th and 30th Centuries. It's not a Hypertime story. Wryspy 08:37, 28 January 2006 (UTC)Wryspy

As far as I'm aware, the full story of the post-Crisis version of the Anti-Matter Crisis has never been told anywhere. However, none of the characters that assisted The Monitor need a Parallel Earth to originate from; my guess is that, even if they remember their true origins, the Universe shifted to explain their existence by giving them new origins (most likely, Pariah's destroyed Homeworld is now an alien world, not an Earth.) Note also that 'Earth-Three' DOES still exist post-Crisis- as 'Earth-2' in the Anti-Matter Universe (see Crime Syndicate) Also, Hypertime is NOT the same as a Parallel Earth, since its existence depends on events in the main timeline, unlike the real Earths, which diverged at the beginning of time, and existed unconnected since.

Hopefully Infinite Crisis will show more light on this.

And yeah, the extra-dimensional origins of the captured heroes is probably no coincidence. Wilfredo Martinez 05:17, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

At now they're all suppositions, as is logic they are. But I agree with Wilfredo Martinez, and it's matter of issue #2 that somehow the DCU is rejecting the universe shifting somehow, like with all Power Girl issues. It should be noted in the final draft of this article that this concept is not only peculiar of the tie-ins and lead-ins of the current Crisis... even in the first issues of the current JSA Doctor Mid-nite was shown unable to understand the true nature of Karen Starr enhanced body, and in the Prince of Darkness story-arc Arion of Atlantis told Karen that her mother asked him to watch on her. So I further suggest to add, on the light of the type of heroes and villains involved, as another major theme along with the new nature of heroism another attempt to seal the increasing continuity ripples created Post-Crisis, especially talking about the Secret Origins of all the "newly folded heroes". Thus the biggest incongruencies about Donna Troy, Power Girl, the preferences of writers that left behind some heroes and gave room to others, are currently being explained with a Crisis on the fabric of the Universe itself, something more bigger than the Hypertime concept.

DrTofu83 10:27, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

OMG... can you guys get a room? A chat-room, I mean? Wikipedia is NOT your comic nerd chatroom. It's also not a crystal ball. Your discussions have nothing to do with editing Wikipedia, and go on and on and ... -- Dyslexic agnostic 10:40, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

Maybe the discussion doesn't have anything to do with editing, but it is still relevant..at least more than some of the senseless edit wars that have been going on in this page. Yes, maybe I should have asked my questions in a more compressed manner, but there's no need to recurr to referring to us as "comic nerds" (specially when virtually anyone who has posted in this talk page is one). And I was only hoping to make sense out of why Alexander needs those specific heroes, so by the time Wednesday and issue #4 comes around, if we still know nothing new about his intentions, then maybe we can have more justified speculation. --Ace ETP 18:22, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

It is preferable to not have anything when no information exists. As for this discussion, it is kinda silly - perhaps you could at least take it to your talk pages? Phil Sandifer 21:11, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

Actual discussion

In effect we've been wandering away. We must revert to the strictly addition to do at the page, so securing them with consent from an edit war. Summing up the whole thing gives up a few questions:

• Synopsis plot or Summary plot? If we have a synopsis "issue by issue", like on Livewires breaking down the current summaries, the synopsis of issue #3 must be centered on the whole "tuning fork question". If we choose to kkep the current Summary plot, we must wait for the complete explanation.
• It must in the "Editorial planning and Infinite Crisis" that before and a bit later the whole return of Donna Troy a lot of hints on the Crisis were scattered throughout the DCU. The whole Arion thing and the references in JSA #32 about the biological origins of Power Girl's power are from 2002, and strongly fit with the things said by Lois Lane in Issue #2. In the same series the whole Per Degaton thing, "I saw you die," when he perfectly foresaw that Atom Smasher's heart would burn with sin, and provoked the appaereance of Daniel.

Are these information to add? Or to left behind?

• Superman//Batman, end of the First Story Arc. When Lex Luthor said "There will be a Crisis", could we consider that a forecoming of the Infinite Crisis? If yes, is another addition, the final for now, to put in the "Editorial planning" section.

DrTofu83 18:53, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

• • It's in Prelude, so that would be somewhat reasonable. The start date of IC planning is, I believe, the death of Donna Troy. As for summary, long term we do want a complete summary in one section, as with other comics. My preference is to keep it in that form, and in general to trim the summary every time a new issue comes out to keep it at about the same length at all times. Phil Sandifer 21:11, 15 January 2006 (UTC)

• Tempest (Infinite Crisis #3, death seemingly confirmed by One Year Later cover). {In an interview, Executive Editor Dan Didio would not confirm whether the cover art presented for pre-order solicitations was how the cover would actually appear.} Does anyone actually have a source for that? Or at least a picture of the cover? And shouldn't comments about that go over at 52 (comics) rather than here? --Ace ETP 07:52, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

• • I read the DiDio interview (one of several interviews he's given sources like Newsarama), but I have never seen this "One Year Later" that one person mentioned when claiming that it confirms some deaths. How does one cover confirm deaths? Covers are used to mislead fans all the time. For all we know, it shows people who remain missing or those who were thought dead but return in the issue in question.Wryspy 22:52, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

Excess of Tie-ins

Does anyone else we should reduce the number of tie-ins listed in the "Other key tie-in issues" section? It's excessive as this is not a comic book collecting website, and we do not have a very good description of many. Another thing we should probably not list is EVERY SINGLE ONE of the heroes in Donna Troy's "strike team". --Ace ETP 20:42, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

Except for Rogues War, all the others are pretty relevant to either Infinite Crisis or one of the minis going into Infinite Crisis. Timon 05:09, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

• • Until Infinite Crisis finally came out, readers really didn't know what the heck it would be about or which of the various tie-ins would turn out to be the most relevant. Until it's over, I don't think we can know for sure which tie-ins should be removed. I agree they should be removed (or moved to their own pages and barely mentioned here when only peripherally relevant), but probably not yet. Wryspy 22:58, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

Please, don't remove it. Maybe if the tie in doesn't contribute to the big picture of Infinite Crisis crossover, and it only show IC' consequences for some characters, you should only list it with no descripton. Or maybe you can do a list of brief section of "minor concecuences Tie-ins" or "minor tie-ins". I don't know. I agree that this is not a comic book colecting website, but what purposes does a page serve if the information is incomplete. Wikipedia states there (not with these words, but that's what I understood from the Perfect article)are spaces to talk about details, it's only matter of knowing where to place them. I mean there must be the the right article, section, sub-article, link or space for details of every topic of human knoledge--T-man... ""worst vandal ever"" 23:50, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

T'Charr and Terataya

Hi, it seems to me that this two characters dead is indeed confirmed, in Day Of vengeance special is said that all the lords of chaos and order have been killed, also Hawk and Dove get depowered and Hawk says she felt them die.

Reply: They're magic. They've seemed dead before. So, although you have a good point, it could be wrong. Similarly, I'd argue that even though Jason Todd said he'd killed Captain Nazi, that doesn't mean he's right. (How does a character that powerful get killed by a taser, for crying out loud!) Wryspy 22:46, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

They've been dead...

As far as I know (and I don't know if Geoff Johns et al have bothered with this snippet of continuity with the current Hawk and Dove), T'Charr and Terataya sacrificied their soon to end lives in Hawk and Dove #16 or so, to preserve the Hawk and Dove enchantment past their anticipated death. So they should have been dead looooong before IC.

Edit: OK, I didn't read the Day of Vengeance special (or the previous post closely enough). Guess it was retconned out with the appearance of the new Hawk.

• They got better.Wryspy 08:39, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

Length

Right now the article is too long. The summary/synopsis can really stand to be trimmed down quite a bit. We don't need to know every single detail that has happened in the story so far (and there's three more issues to go). WesleyDodds 11:33, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

Maybe. And some of us have been trimming details along the way. But until the whole thing is over, what difference does it make? Until it's over, we won't really know which details were the most important. Right now, anybody reading it either knows what happened or wants to know what they missed. Wryspy 22:50, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

It makes a difference in terms of accesibility. Thsoe unfamiliar with the comic but who want to read up on it might be confused by the excess of details. For example, the part about the Joker and the Royal Flush Gang has no immediate bearing so far. Also, we don't need to list everyone Superboy killed; simply say "the Earth-Prime Superboy killed some of the Titans" or something along those line instead of listing everyone by name.

Also, the page is around 30 kb, which does not necessarily make it easy to browse. WesleyDodds 04:00, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

True, it is weird browsing this thing. Each of the lead-ins (e.g., Villains United) should be summed up in a single sentence each. After all, they each have their own Wikipedia page already, don't they? Putting the detailed info on each of them on their respective pages instead of cluttering this page might help.

If the lead-ins' descriptions are to be short, that is fine, but at least link the headings to their respective articles (Day of Vengeance, Rann-Thanagar War). Right now, people may not know they have individual pages. Cybertooth85

And why do the issue synopses keep getting longer? The one for #4 isn't a synopsis. It's a full plot description.

I second limiting the mention of events related to the various IC miniseries to their respective articles. The main reason: despite DC's heavy publicity, the fact is that INFINITE CRISIS is NOT a single event- it's FIVE, with the Alexander Luthor subplot being the main story, and the others being only peripherally connected to it (Rann/Thanagar War, in particular, has no connection to the event other than the fact it was caused by Superboy Prime's rearranging of the Universe!) I do agree that the summary has to be adjusted as the issues come out, but that fits the nature of Wikipedia anyway. Wilfredo Martinez 03:21, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

The lead-ins all have their own pages, so surely in the interests of length, only a line or two is needed? If the reader wants to know more - the pages are right there!

--Charlesknight 00:21, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

Well, before they weren't linked, but now there are title links to the individual pages, so the lead-ins can be trimmed to brief synopsi of important points.

Fire fly

Is firefly death? didn't he appeared on JLA 116-ish issue (don't rember)? I think that is after omac... then again right now I'm totally confused. --T-man... ""worst vandal ever"" 23:00, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

Wouldn't this be more appropiate as a tag or something?? Though this article is by no means a complete checklist of Infinite Crisis Then it says (...) below is a list of key issues of other titles that have crossed into the story. which I think I think is ok, because it a description of the listed stuff.--T-man... ""worst vandal ever"" 23:20, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

MXY... alive?

[1] ...unless you think Superman's kid is going to look like a big headed imp with a really tiny hat, hehe--T-man... ""worst vandal ever"" 04:22, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

The comic with that cover is at least a year old. Hell, the image of Dick Grayson with the Batman outfit is a decade old. ' ^{(Feeling chatty? ) (Edits!)} 20:38, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

Is there a chronological Index of the whole crossover event??

Can we do one? I'm begging here... I'm so confused. Trying to figure out what story or miniseries came first... Maybe there is already one on wikipedia and I don't know about. If not we can do a workshop or a project to develope it.--T-man... ""worst vandal ever"" 23:10, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

I don't see that this is required, and in any event can wait until the limited series is over. Newsarama articles have already dealt with this subject, and noted several discrepencies that no doubt contribute to T-man's confusion. Dyslexic agnostic 00:25, 30 January 2006 (UTC) Amen on the discrepancies. Those will have to be explained retroactively later, if ever.Wryspy 06:14, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

I think a chronology would be useful -- after everything is said and done. With the storyline jumping all over the place between the different series, plus other series that may or may not be connected to what's going on (for example, Morrison's "Seven Soldiers" which features Zatanna), some sort of concordance would be very handy. But it's too early to do one yet. 23skidoo 00:27, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

And how do you determine chronological order? By publication date? Nope. Publication chronology doesn't match story chronology. And with some time travel involved (such as Superboy destroying the Watchtower in JLA before he and the others returned in Infinite Crisis #1), it could be more complicated than we realize. I suppose someone could start a publication date list for reference as a separate entry, not on the Infinite Crisis page.

Doesn't have to be on this page. Basically what I'd like to see is some sort of reading order suggestin/concordance listing all the crossovers and whatnot. I have been enjoying IC except for the fact that the storyline keeps jumping back and forth. Some great big event will happen in, say, Infinite Crisis 3, and then a month or even two months later, along comes (just random example), JSA Classified with a story that clearly takes place before. The worst case was the publishing of the Supergirl issue in which she says farewell to Superman which came out before the issue in which Donna Troy recruited her! 23skidoo 06:17, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

I understand what you mean about reading order. I get my comics in a monthly order. After I read through them, I arrange the Crisis-related comics in the order that makes sense (chronological where possible) so my son can go through them in order.Wryspy 06:38, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

I do agree with you very much. That's what gave me the idea. Right now I own the 4 spin of miniseries (minus villains united 3-6), Infinite Crisis 1-3, Identity C, Countdown, jla 115-122 and jsa 73-74... That's what I completed when my second order arrived (there are no good comic shops here). I read countdown and the tie in miniseries 1-2, 4 monts later I got my second order. Relizing I forgot to order V.U. was like punch in the stomach. I started with jla... bad idea. I thought that, since the story seems to pick up from Identity C. left, that was the logic thing, but the 4 spins were suposed to came before. I got dizzy there. #119 is suposed to continue in Infinite Crisis 1I read Rann/T., Day of V. (loved the plot, hated the geeky story telling). Then, right arter I finished reading OMAC 3, I learned you have to read the Sacrifice story arc before #4... and I haven't even ordered it yet...that was like a kick in the nuts.

Before continuing other non related comic books while I get the big picture of what happened when from internet. I made an exel table doing a line for every month and a column for every title. every issue cell has the issue cover and number and a color depending on which miniseries is tied in to (identity, rann, villains, omac/countdown or vengaence). When the issue is tied th more than one of those I considere it tied to infinity crisis. I got from Identity to the issues published on october + Infinite C 1-7. The next thing I need is a souce where i can learn from november december and on tied issues. Right now I'm numering issues from the same color to clarify the sequence of the 6 or so story arcs. For example 1. omac#1, 2. omac#2, 3. Birds of Pray #x, 4. Omac#3, 5. Some point in sacrifice..., Infinite Crisis. I also realize I need to put the Batman/Superman wanted issues since that's when Luthor said there is going to be a Crisis and Superman from Eart II first appeared (I think that was him, wasn't?...right, I could just open the comic book again, heheh). You think I guess, if the Idea alredy got some suporters we can start translating it into something more wiki-material like. What would that be? Is already there some sort of format for that kind of time line articles (or sub articles or sections) we can follow?--T-man... ""worst vandal ever"" 07:28, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

The future superman from Superman/Batman: Public Enemies was actually a sort of Kingdom Come / What Ever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow? version of Superman, coming from a future where the world was annihilated by the debris from Krypton (and the radiation associated with it). He was an older Earth-1 Superman, essentially. Interestingly, the Man of Tomorrow Superman was based (I think) on the original (now Earth-2) Superman. ZZ 13:12, 30 January 2006 (UTC) Reply: Nope. The Man of Tomorrow Superman was the fate/future of the Earth-1 Superman before the Crisis on Infinite Earths changed the timeline.Wryspy 17:57, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

Thanks you avoid me quite some massive reading headache , haha--T-man... ""worst vandal ever"" 08:42, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

ps: My son will have to by his own comics. I wouldn't like some bugger drawing and slobbering all over my precioussseses comic books, hahah--T-man... ""worst vandal ever"" 07:32, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

DC editor Dan DiDio has stated that there is a massive chart of every single crossover, going back to even stuff that predates Identity Crisis. Unfortunately, DC keeps changing its mind about whether or not they plan to publish it, but I suspect that decision will eventually come down on the side of showing off their cleverness :) Lokicarbis 09:10, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

I would like to note regarding the chronology this this link seems to have it down pat. KramarDanIkabu 18:27, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

Interesting attempt. The poster is probably basically right about the chronological order. There's no way the numbering of days is right, though. Ted Kord has been dead longer than that.

Please, for the love of God, don't. Wikipedia is supposed to be a broad overview of things for newcomers, especially fiction. A chronological order of every single issue in Infinite Crisis would only serve to bore and confuse newcomers and trample over WP:NOR. Leave it to the fansites to do it. ' ^{(Feeling chatty? ) (Edits!)} 20:44, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

Speed Force

I'm going to remove the Speed Force reference from the following statement because Wally says it's not the Speed Force in IC #4: Flash III, wife Linda Park West, children Barry West & Iris West II (Infinite Crisis #4, disappeared into Speed Force, status unknown) I just want everyone to know why I'm doing it, so no one reverts it without a reason. --Rocketgoat 21:35, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

Countdown needs separate entry.

One thing that would help shorten this article would be to create a separate article for Countdown to Infinite Crisis and move most of its description to the new page. Right now, if I enter Countdown to Infinite Crisis, it redirects me back to the Infinite Crisis article.

It was decided early on in the article and series's lifespan to merge the Countdown into this article. KramarDanIkabu 22:23, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

Early on, yes, that made sense. But now is not early on. Now it takes up a lot of space on an increasingly crowded page.Wryspy 05:04, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

Agree. Article will be in a very different position. Maybe the whole leadup to infinite crisis section could be put in it's own article rather than just the countdown special itself. while the individual miniseries leadups didn't I believe the TPB of the minis did all bear a subtitle saying countdown to infinite crisis, does anyone else recall? - Waza 06:12, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

Agree. I think we should create an Infinite Crisis category and list all this stuff there. And maybe the Infinite Crisis article will need to be split into a commentary article and a synopsis article. Lokicarbis 06:27, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

Organization Revisited

Okay, OMAC etc. got trimmed because they have their own articles, but what about the question of moving the now-short descriptions of OMAC, Villains, etc. above the synopses? Also, what about those progressively longer synopses for IC #1, 2, 3, and 4? Should they be moved to another page, trimmed down to a few critical sentences each, or left alone? Someone put work into writing them and while, yes, contributors must accept that they can be mercilessly edited by others, that doesn't mean others ought to edit mercilessly just because they can. Sometimes it's just needed. Sometimes it hurts nothing to solicit opinions before making the big cuts. -- User:Wryspy 00:17, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

Another org step: I created two columns for the various lists of dead and reappeared, hope this is an improvement. Dyslexic agnostic 16:15, 2 February 2006 (UTC) (I like the columns. Thanks.Wryspy 08:37, 3 February 2006 (UTC))

I can't imagine why anybody would edit just because they could, other than vandalism. A nice summary of the entire series would be greatly preferred. It allows newcomers to more easily understand Infinite Crisis without getting totally lost in overblown details, not to mention that it's less hideous. I don't want to see another article like House of M (story). That's ugly and completely non-reader-friendly. ' ^{(Feeling chatty? ) (Edits!)} 06:00, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

Well, the issue summaries are getting to be that long (especially the synopsis of #4). One advantage to creating an unwieldly page like House of M (story) would be that it appears to have kept the main House of M page from becoming unwieldly. Obviously some people want to write descriptions with that much detail. Personally I'm all for moving the synopses of IC #1,2, 3, and 4 over to an Infinite Crisis (story) page where they'd be out of the way and replacing them on the main IC page with a short synopsis that's actually a synopsis.

I don't think splitting the synopses into a separate article would be wise. It's ridiculous that the story of "House of M" is split from the article about the miniseries itself. Just because people want to write detailed descriptions doesn't mean they should. It's just not very efficient or constructive to list every little plot detail. Why not just read the book for that kind of detail? WesleyDodds 11:51, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

Isn't the very purpose of a Wiki to allow anyone to contribute what they want, and then let others edit it into a more serviceable form? Wilfredo Martinez 13:54, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

I concurr. Plus, since virtually all sections have been trimmed, don't we finally have space to tell a detailed account of the story? --Ace ETP 19:42, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

Infinite Crisis Category

Okay, made the category, and placed all the leadup series, plus 52, in it. And someone else added Crispus Allen to it. What else needs to go into that category in order to provide a full overview? Lokicarbis 07:15, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

Uh, what category are you talking about?

Category:Infinite Crisis - see the bottom of the article. Lokicarbis 07:26, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

Gotcha. Thanks.

Crossover section

This article is still too long - I have trimmed the crossover section. If anyway want to discuss the editorial and business drivers behind crossovers, surely that needs to be article on it's own with a link from here to there?

--Charlesknight 00:01, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

Repetition and overdetailed

One of the problems with this article is the repetition. If we have a mention that the spectre destroyed the rock of enternity near the start - we don't need it again! (of course it may well be that mention of the outcome maybe needed).

As mentioned further up, Wikipedia is for [i]the man on the street[/i], there is a level of detail here that is not need for the target audience.

--Charlesknight 11:39, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

Seven Soldiers?

Why do we have reference to the death of characters in the Seven soliders series? Those deaths have no direct connection or impact on infinite crisis. Didio has stated that "We have positioned Seven Soldiers as post-Crisis, running simultaneously with 52"

Therefore any deaths have no direct connection to this series and I will remove them.

--Charlesknight 17:02, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

(Countdown to :P) revision war

OK with the best intensions in the world, we are heading towards a situation where revisions are going to go backwards and forwards.

My last revisions were reverted by ACE_ETP with the explanation: (Don't erase important plot points for unnecesary brevity. We've only recently managed to trim down all other sections so the synopses could be big. Sabbac II is not dead and Amethyst only MAY be.)

Let me explain my revisions and see if we can come to some agreement about them?

Me: Infinite Crisis is the sequel to 1985's 12-issue limited series Crisis on Infinite Earths.

ACE_ETP: Infinite Crisis is a sequel to Marv Wolfman and George Pérez's successful 1985 12-issue limited series Crisis on Infinite Earths.

Why on earth does it matter if the original series was successful or not? (and how is that an important plot point?) Why do we need details about the authors? There is a link there that people can follow if they are interested!

Me: The OMAC attack on Themyscira intensifies, Wonder Woman realizes that Brother Eye is broadcasting the assault across the world in order to discredit her and her nation further. Quickly diverting the OMACs away from the Amazon armies, Diana decides that her sisters must retreat. To this end, Diana calls on Athena to send Paradise Island into another dimension. Diana, however, remains behind to battle the OMACs, never able to return to her home.

ACE_ETP: The OMAC attack on Themyscira intensifies, leading the Amazons make use of a new weapon, the Purple Ray of Death. Wonder Woman orders the weapon shut down when she realizes that Brother Eye is broadcasting the assault across the world in order to discredit her and her nation further. Quickly diverting the OMACs away from the Amazon armies, Diana orders her sisters to retreat. As they gather on the shoreline of Themyscira, Diana calls on Athena to send Paradise Island into another dimension. Diana, however, remains behind to battle the OMACs, never able to return to her home.

The weapon that they use is irrelevent to the larger point that Brother eye is trying to discredit them with the attack. The amazons could be using a flying purple dildo and it's not a jot of difference to the Wiki readers understanding of the matter. Is it really relevent to the casual reader to know that the amazons "gather on the shore"? Is it a shore on a different island?

Me: While Power Girl struggles with whether to support the cause of the returned heroes

ACE_ETP: While Power Girl struggles with whether to support the cause of the returned heroes (knowing that Earth-Two must be restored for Earth-Two's Lois Lane to live).

The "cause" is explained elsewhere in the article - why repeat?

And on and on..

It would be nice to get feedback from others before we end up going backwards and forwards in regards to revisions

--Charlesknight 21:22, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

Both versions make sense. I prefer the trimmed version, though. "Successful" -- trim that fat. Naming Wolfman -- anyone who wants to know who wrote Crisis on Infinite Earths can follow the link to its article. And so on. And yes, cut the repetition. Wryspy 22:35, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

I prefer Charlesknight's version. Things like the idiotic "Purple Death Ray" amount to nothing in the plot and can be excised to further summarize the plot. We're supposed to be an encyclopedia, not a substitute for reading the comics. Removal of redundancy is also encouraged. ' ^{(Feeling chatty? ) (Edits!)} 22:38, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

I completely understand if you feel that stuff is redundant, but some other secondary things you've been talking about trimming elsewhere (such as everything involving Booster Gold and his search for the scarab) might become important plot points for the first time within Infinite Crisis rather than after. But I guess if that turns out to be the case, we can add them again later. Also, I really don't think this is a revision war, since you wouldn't expect civilized comments from both parties in the history and talk pages in your usual one. --Ace ETP 17:46, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

Good point! let's call it a revision conference instead.

--Charlesknight 18:22, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

Editoral planning?

Do we really need this section?

--Charlesknight 23:14, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

Need it? Of course not. But I remember finding it interesting the first time I visited the article, so I'd vote to keep it for now.Wryspy 23:16, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

Right-ho - how do I check the size of an article? It's 32k isn't it?

--Charlesknight 23:18, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

Info on article size: [2] (And since three of us have been trimming the same article for several minutes now, I think I'll get out of the way and leave it in obviously capable hands.)Wryspy 23:29, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

Wha? Of course we need it. Wikipedia is supposed to be an encyclopedia that connects things with real life. Just look Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Magneto (comics)/archive1 to see that "Infinite Crisis as DC policy and a comic book series" is preferred to "Infinite Crisis as a event in the DC Universe". If anything, that section needs to be expanded. ' ^{(Feeling chatty? ) (Edits!)} 23:37, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

Ah ok, I'm new to this and I am still getting a handle on the place in terms of style and content (I'm only popped in for a quick read :) )

--Charlesknight 23:38, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps it should be turned into a separate article, which would allow it to be developed at the length it deserves. I mean, we're talking about an editorial policy that has affected the entire DC line for abotu 3 years now, and will continue to do so for at least another year (until the end of 52). Lokicarbis 01:44, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

Influence of Magneto in the real world is much broader than influence of this one story on DC's editorial policy, so that's not the same thing.

Ummm, what does that mean? I really can't tell which part of the discussion you're responding to, or what you're trying to say. And please sign your comments. Lokicarbis 09:07, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

If we're trimming

Let's get the synopsis down to something resembling the length of the synopsis on Crisis on Infinite Earths. If we can do that justice in four paragraphs, we oughta be able to do four issues in about two.Phil Sandifer 23:40, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

I think the problem here is that this event is still ongoing - once we have the whole storyline, it will be easier to trim out what's not needed. In the meantime, I'd prefer we erred on the side of detail, even if some of it is extraneous. There's only three issues to go - we can post-mortem it then. Lokicarbis 01:46, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

So we guess, and if it turns out in issue #5 that we left something vital out of issue #2, we can go back and put it in. Phil Sandifer 03:37, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

Seconded. I also want to suggest that the new synopsis should stick to the main events of the story, and that mention of minor ones like the new Blue Beetle's origin be shifted to other articles. Wilfredo Martinez 03:41, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

The new Blue Beetle's detailed origin will be the Blue Beetle article so, yeah, only the elements of that which turn out to matter to the main story of Infinite Crisis need to be mentioned in any detail. (And so far, the Blue Beetle business seems irrelevant to the main story.)

Don't count your chickens! The Jim Lee cover to IC #5 was just released and it looks like Blue Beetle will have a more prominent role than you thought. It could be pretty misleading, but chances are if he's the central figure to a cover this far into IC, he'll be important. --Rocketgoat 19:59, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

I agree, let's trim out all what appears to be fat (if it's not, we can put it in later), much of the crisis will be set-up for news series and not directly relevent. To that end,I've trimmed a bit further this morning.

--Charlesknight 09:34, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

How about archiving this page before IC#5 comes out this week, and starting with a fresh discussion page?Wryspy 17:37, 6 February 2006 (UTC)

Seconded. The page is too long already, and many of the comments made (such as the argument over the extradimensional origins of the captured heroes) are already irrelevant. Wilfredo Martinez 18:34, 6 February 2006 (UTC)