Talk:Hannah Kim

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Notability?[edit]

Moved: was at Reference desk/Humanities

Hi, is there any notability to Hanna Kim? In a nutshell, she was a publicist and got a prize from the Movement for Quality Government in Israel. Dgw (talk) 08:54, 20 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

As you are no doubt aware, that link leads to an article on the Hebrew Wikipedia. We cannot comment here on whether that article passes or fails the notability criteria. If you have concerns, you should discuss them on the Hebrew Wikipedia. --Viennese Waltz 08:57, 20 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Dgw. I take it your question is about whether it would make sense to write an article about her on the English Wikipedia, not about notability on Hebrew Wikipedia. I think there's a good chance she is notable by en.wiki standards, having won the Sokolov Award, founded a periodical, founded a school, and led demonstrations. I couldn't find a great deal of coverage in English on a very cursory Googling, but Hebrew sources are valid here too. I'm not best placed to evaluate those sources myself, since I don't speak the language.› Mortee talk 09:21, 20 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Sure I intended to write it in English. I will start working on it. Dgw (talk) 09:36, 20 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Hi again. I found another Hana Kim. Would it be good to make "Hanna Kim (Israel)" title or just "Hanna Kim"? Dgw (talk) 13:59, 20 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Just Hanna Kim. Hana Kim is a different spelling and does not have an article yet. If and when they both get articles, Wikipedia:Hatnote#Two_articles_with_similar_titles hatnotes can be used to help steer people the right way. Matt Deres (talk) 14:23, 20 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Cleanup[edit]

Dgw, let me know if I can help here (I don't know Hebrew so can't help with anything that requires an understanding of the sources). This needs some real cleanup. The square brackets aren't functioning as actual references, they're just text. The "Her life" sections should be arranged into paragraphs. The references should include links where possible, and certainly page numbers if the references are to newspapers or other publications. None of the external links are links yet. The categories are currently disabled. There are very few wikilinks... This is a new article so of course you can take some time to fix it up, and as I said at the reference desk I believe Ms Kim is probably notable, but this article in its current form is likely to attract unwanted attention. You can ping me here or post at my talk page if you'd like any help with the syntax or other standards. › Mortee talk 00:33, 22 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Mortee, you are welcome to clean it if you wish. I have not yet inserted sources, because it was the beginning. I began some cleaning, like changing "news" to "Hadashot", "City" to "Ha'ir" etc. I also added her picture, participating a demonstration in July 2018, which I took myself. The square brackets are for pointing sources, which are already written beneath the references, e.g.: [2] -> "Al Hamishmar, June 12, 1986". I hope to read the sources. It would not be easy, because it is printed in newspapers from decades ago. For now, I hid the square brackets. Dgw (talk) 02:48, 22 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Dgw that's OK; I was too tired when I read this last night and I thought you'd made a live article rather than a draft. In a draft this is all fine for now. Sorry for my confusion! › Mortee talk 09:27, 22 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Verifying references[edit]

I do not have possibility to verify the references. in the National Library of Israel there are copies of "Al Hamishmar" until 1969, but not of June 12, 1986. "Ha'ir" is not exist, nor "Haaretz".
May I put general template {{refimprove|date=August 2018}} or {{Failed verification}} by every unverified reference, or both – as shown in the draft? Dgw (talk) 02:25, 24 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

It would be unusual to tag your own draft for maintenance that way. If you do so, {{refimprove}} is for the whole article (or add |section to mark a section) so don't use it for every reference. It would probably be better to remove the claims you're unable to verify yourself and perhaps add mention of them to the talk page (i.e. here) so that, if the draft is published, future editors know what to look for. › Mortee talk 02:36, 24 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for your assistance. I left {{refimprove}}, and put here the sources which I could not verify. They refer to this revision:
[2] Al Hamishmar, June 12, 1986
[3] Ha'ir, January 30, 1987
[4] Ha'ir, September 4, 1987
[5] Ha'ir, September 23, 1987
[6] Ha'ir, October 7, 1987
[7] Ha'ir, December 25, 1987
[8] Ha'ir, February 19, 1988
[9] Ha'ir, February 26, 1988
[10] Haaretz, "Yes, go on strike", December 3, 1996
[11] Hannah Kim, Bibi's notes: Facebook journalist project (photos), on the site "Holes on the Net", December 2, 2012 (Dead link)
[12] Ronit Vardi, "Liberal", February 2018
Dgw (talk) 06:00, 24 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Main Picture[edit]

The main picture has to be proportional to its background. Kim is an activist, not a model nor an actress. The former picture could not be accepted. Dgw (talk) 18:24, 5 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

External Link to Twitter[edit]

The article Donald Trump has two external links to Twitter:
1. [https://twitter.com/POTUS President Trump] on Twitter (official)
and
2. [https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump Donald Trump] on Twitter (personal)<!-- DO NOT CHANGE without prior consensus, see [[Talk:Donald Trump#Current consensus]], item 9. -->
The article lacks sources. When there are a lot of sources, it will be estimated. Dgw (talk) 02:00, 8 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

As WP:LINKSTOAVOID describes: "10 Social networking sites (such as Myspace, Facebook, LinkedIn, and Instagram), chat or discussion forums/groups (such as Yahoo! Groups), Twitter feeds, Usenet newsgroups or email lists." are link to be avoided in the External links section. Donald Trump's Twitter is an exceptional and I don't thinks it can set an example here. We should not link social networking profile in External links section. Sokuya (talk) 07:42, 8 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Mortee, what would you say?
First, it is accepted to indent the reply.
The reply ignored two things which I had written: "WP:LINKSTOAVOID Except for a link to an official page of the article's subject" (in my edit summary) and "The article lacks sources".
The reply also did not interpret why Trump's twitter was exceptional, mainly his personal twitter. If you see Donald Trump, you will notice that Twitter external links come before Trump at Britannica external link. Is a link to a "social network" prior to a link to Encyclopedia?
Reading WP guidlines makes sense that "Twitter feeds" refer to differnt feeds like "The seventh eye" or "Haaretz", but not to the page of the article's subject, mainly when it lacks sources. Please see also this and this. In the Hebrew Wikipedia Kim's picture was not replaced. Dgw (talk) 11:11, 8 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Hi DGW. I think it's probably better to leave it out. Since she isn't known primarily for her tweets (as far as I can tell), I think the usual guidance against including social media external links applies. Adding it doesn't help with the problem that the article doesn't have enough sources. If there's an official page about her at a newspaper or something, that would be a better choice.
The phrasing "Except for a link to an official page of the article's subject" and the follow-up at WP:ELOFFICIAL are interestingly ambiguous. I don't think it's meant to say that official Twitter accounts are generally OK; it's more to cover e.g. point 5, "web pages that primarily exist to sell products or services", since an official website often does that but we still want to link someone's one official webpage. That's my reading of this discussion, for example. Trump really is an exception, since his tweets are themselves the topic of a huge slice of world news. Also, on the English Wikipedia, a link to a Twitter feed in Hebrew may not be very useful.
About the image, I think the third is the best. The first included too much background so reading the article you couldn't see much of her. The main image should be a clear one of the person's face. The second became a bit blurry by cropping too far. The third is a nice balance. Other images in the article can do more to put her in context. I hope this helps › Mortee talk 13:37, 8 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you Mortee for your useful words. The third image I have made. I know some proportions and graphics, because I am a certified architect by the Technion. I also developed photos at the dark room in the photography lab of the faculty. Dgw (talk) 18:28, 8 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Proofreading[edit]

Hi Mortee, I found the text quite confusing: Yedioth Ahronoth and Al HaMishmar instead of "Yedioth Ahronoth" and "Al HaMishmar". Hugim High School instead of "Hugim" high school. Shin Bet instead of Shin Bet (Israel Security Agency). What is correct? Thank you, Dgw (talk) 15:35, 11 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

We use italics for the titles of things like newspapers (see MOS:TITLE). For the school, it depends. Here in the UK, almost all schools are have "School", "Academy", "College" or similar as part of the name (see e.g. List of schools in Cumbria) so it gets capitalised. If in this case the school is just called "Hugim", and it happens to be a high school, rather than the name being "Hugim High School", then capitals would be incorrect. I think "the Israeli Security Agency (Shin Bet)" or "Shin Bet (the Israeli Security Agency)" would be best, because some readers (like me) won't have heard of it and, per our article, "Israeli Security Agency" is the formal name. › Mortee talk 17:21, 11 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I agreed with you, because I thought about the reader which was not familiar with the "Shin Bet". Dgw (talk) 20:30, 11 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Hannah Kim moved to draftspace[edit]

 – Dgw (talk) 20:16, 23 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for creating an article for Hannah Kim. Unfortunately, the draft currently published does not have enough sources and citations as written to remain published. It needs more citations from reliable, independent sources. (?) Information that can't be referenced should be removed (verifiability is of central importance on Wikipedia). Please note that as a biography of a living person it is extra important that all claims in the article be backed up by citations to reliable sources. Currently most claims are entirely unsourced, and only one of the sources provided (פטישים) is a reliable source that mentions Hannah Kim (and even that one doesn't do so to the level of depth that would typically be expected to demonstrate notability). Looking at the Hebrew language wiki article, it seems that more than enough appropriate sources exist, but it's not enough to simply point to the Hebrew article, you need to cite them in the English article as well. I've moved your draft to draftspace (with a prefix of "Draft:" before the article title) where you can incubate the article with minimal disruption. When you feel the article meets Wikipedia's general notability guideline and thus is ready for mainspace, please click on the "Submit your draft for review!" button at the top of the page. signed, Rosguill talk 21:07, 21 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Mortee and Rosguill, the issue dealt with the Hebrew sources which I did not find, and could not cite it as a result.
I put other sources. Netanyahu's notes seemed to me quite meaningful. Not every journalist can find such notes. It was quite similar to Watergate, and these three sources are not in the Hebrew Wikipedia. I found it myself, and put also some other sources:
  1. Hanoch Bartov cited Kim about the Ethiopian soldiers who did not have beds, and spent their holidays at the central bus station.
  2. Kim's name on the list of Sokolov winners.
  3. The rapid advancement of Sheves in the IDF.
  4. Gabi Tamman's interview to Hadashot.
  5. A lawsuit of Eyal Arad, a leading Israeli political strategist in 1994, vs Kim: Two different sources (12, 13).
  6. A video of Kim, demonstrating in Petak Tikva against the Attorney General.
  7. Kim's demonstration in Tel Aviv, as reported by Schneider (20).
In conclusion, I added new 16 new sources, and it might return the article to the mainspace. May you review the article and confirm its returning? Thank you, Dgw (talk) 21:30, 24 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Due to a prominent interview of Hannah Kim on the Israeli radio on October 17, 2018, which was widely reported in three different sources, two of them in English, I decided to return the article to the mainspace. An article review may last months, and the Hebrew Wikipedia was updated today as well. Dgw (talk) 22:12, 17 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Ways to improve Hannah Kim[edit]

 – Dgw (talk) 10:07, 19 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, I'm Rosguill. Dorian Gray Wild, thanks for creating Hannah Kim!

I've just tagged the page, using our page curation tools, as having some issues to fix. The article is in better shape now, thanks! However, the article probably doesn't need to document so many of her various publications as a journalist, and should instead summarize her contributions over the course of her career in a few paragraphs. Meanwhile, there are several claims in the article about Kim herself that are unsourced–as a biography of a living person, it is very important that all claims in the article be backed up by citations to reliable sources

The tags can be removed by you or another editor once the issues they mention are addressed. If you have questions, you can leave a comment on my talk page. Or, for more editing help, talk to the volunteers at the Teahouse.

signed, Rosguill talk 22:09, 18 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I am sorry that some sources are missing. I contacted Kim for it, but she replied that she had nothing to do with me, and did not want to tell her email for reading Al HaMishmar and Ha'ir sources. The template will remain until someone provides the sources. Dgw (talk) 11:12, 19 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]
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