Talk:Hairpin turn

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Use of "switchback"[edit]

I'm British, and a brief survey of my family found that not one of them uses "switchback" to mean "hairpin turn"; we just use "hairpin [bend]". For example, a road near Bewdley, where I live, is locally known as "the switchback", but that is because of its undulations, not its hairpin turns - it can't be, because it doesn't have any hairpin turns! Presumably this designation is actually derived from the use of "switchback" (at least in British English) to mean a fairground rollercoaster with alternating rises and dips.

I've got no problem at all with the use of "switchback" in this article being left where it is (though I'm rather less convinced about the redirect from switchback itself), but is shouldn't be assumed that "switchback" and "hairpin" are always interchangeable. As an example, see under "switchback" in this American/British dictionary.Loganberry (Talk) 23:58, 7 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The OED's quite informative. There are two different things involved: zigzag roads, and undulating roads. I'd rewrite this article, but I can't quite visualise its fate as anything but an intricate explanation of English/American terminology. What would we do if an Australian or South African chanced to read it? The sentence or two on their function are conjecture, which I'm not qualified to replace. Njál 21:12, 22 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
It's interesting that in Britsh England "switchback" refers a road that undulates up and down. That wouldn't make much sense to an American. We use swtichback mainly for trails, I'd say more for the segments of trail than for the turns that connect them. Here's a picture. Dicklyon 21:36, 22 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
"switchback" is the term I've always used for this type of road pattern ascending a steep slope, "hairpin turn" I've never used and would associate with the turn itself, not the general road pattern .... if it's a question of regional variations, I'm in Ontario (which does not generally have this type of road) but spent most of my life (and studied physical geography) in British Columbia (which has many switchbacks) ... in neighbouring Washington State, switchback was also used in the same sense ... so I'm surprised that "hairpin turn" is the name of the article, and "switchback" is a synonym mentioned in passing deep in the text, I would have expected the opposite, or at very least a switchback redirect page J Edward Malone (talk) 17:07, 4 November 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Most definitions of "switchback" are problematical (as partly shown by the discussion here, and in the next section), and I am wondering if there is any interest in working up a better definition. While such a discussion might be more appropriate at Wiktionary, in that I do not have an account there I have left a note suggesting a discussion here. Alternately, contact me on my Talk page. J. Johnson (talk) 22:45, 7 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

'highway'[edit]

A 'highway' is a big road, isn't it? It makes me think of long, wide, straight roads going for miles through empty American desert. Not a very good choice of term for an article illustrated by three pictures of European mountain roads.

Actually, in America a highway is a road that goes a long distance. Many old US highways are still 2-lane roads, and some have switchbacks. Probably even more true for state highways. Dicklyon 21:41, 22 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

What is this supposed to mean: "An alternative in trail-building is the stairway"? One moment we're talking about highways and the next we're talking about *looks up American use of trail* paths, and the linked article leaves me with an image of grand Viennese spiral staircases in the middle of the forest. Njál 20:43, 22 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I reworded things a bit. I hope it helps. The lead sentence makes it clear that hairpin turns are also known as switchbacks, especially when applied to trails instead of roads. If it's not clear, work on that. Dicklyon 21:28, 22 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, Dicklyon. I've rewritten it to make all the different uses clearer — could you check that the American bit's not misleading? (Oh, and I'm still not clear what it meant by 'stairway.' Something like a ladder?) Njál 22:03, 22 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I don't know that "by analogy with switchback railways" is correct. Quite possibly the term went the other direction. In a railway, by the way, switchbacks involve reversing the train, not turning it. Dicklyon 00:18, 23 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Switchbacks as an "alternative in trail-building [to] the stairway" could be deemed technically correct, but the connection is so, well, technical, that it is hardly clear to the general public. Nor to many trail-builders. J. Johnson (talk) 23:06, 7 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

move to Hairpin bend?[edit]

I don't agree with the move that was done without discussion. In US at least, hairpin turn is much more common; I've never heard hairpin bend, in spite of what the OED may say. Dicklyon 00:18, 23 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • Agreed. Preferably this should have been discussed first. --Nebular110 00:36, 23 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I moved it back. Dicklyon 02:12, 23 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Motorsports[edit]

I added a section on motorsports since hairpins are a common feature on road racing tracks. I also linked to the illustration of Riverside Raceway found on the hairpin article. A suggestion might be to replace it with a photograph of an actual racetrack hairpin if a suitable free one can be found, instead of the track map. Nibios 21:24, 3 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Skiing[edit]

"Sections known as hairpins are also found in the slalom discipline of alpine skiing. A hairpin consists of two consecutive vertical or "closed gates" which CV==Skiing== Sections known as hairpins are also found in the slalom discipline of alpine skiing. A hairpin consists of two consecutive vertical or "closed gates" which must be negotiated very quickly. (Three or more consecutive closed gates are known as a flush.) . (Three or more consecutive closed gates are known as a flush.)"

Well, hmmmm, "which must be negotiated very quickly"... Well no... You,ll negociate them as you like as long as you win, is in'it ? Ericd (talk) 15:33, 23 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"Roads with hairpin turns"[edit]

This section seems to be burgeoning into a catalog of everyone's favorite "hairpin turns". Would it be more appropriate in an encyclopediac article (and of a very minor topic) to merely illustrate the topic with a sufficient number of examples?

It might be fun to develop a comprehensive catalog, but I wonder if that would be appropriate. And if not, then perhaps a few superior examples - preferably with pictures - ought to be selected. - J. Johnson (talk) 22:42, 28 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I think that for this article, the proper criterion for inclusion should be appearance in a reliable secondary source (such as these). Primary interpretation of maps by wikipedia editors isn't good enough. Dicklyon (talk) 05:29, 29 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
With a clear and precise definiton, and unambiguous examples, I see no problem with editor-selected examples. But that is beside the point I raise, which is: would it be more appropriate to have a few, good examples (however they are selected), sufficient to illustrate the topic, rather than a comprehensive catalog? - J. Johnson (talk) 00:53, 31 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Unfortunately a comprehensive catalogue could span several screens just with those you might find in Spain, Italy, Switzerland, Mediterranean & Canary islands (etc) alone - been up and down enough of them to get thoroughly sick (...and my travel partner literally was) of the sight just in two short trips to Sardinia and Tenerife. Big famous ones should do the job. 193.63.174.10 (talk) 15:01, 29 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
A wikipedia article can never be a comprehensive catalog, nor claim to be. I agree that a few good ones would be enough, but I also think that they need to be sourced to something that at least mentions them. Dicklyon (talk) 03:01, 31 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
My main criterion for inclusion as an example would be whether there is a picture (of superior quality) that clearly illustrates the concept. Another consideration: switchbacks (American usage) are often defined as "hairpin turns", which rather confounds both. So I am strongly in favor of a couple of examples that distinguish hairpin turns from switchbacks (such as the NASCAR track). - J. Johnson (talk) 22:42, 1 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
My vote is to nuke this entire section. There are hundreds of roads with hairpin bends in the Intermountain West (one region of North America) alone. Given that every continent has a similar region; this list is certain to spiral out of control with everybody adding their favorite or local road/rail line. Above it is mentioned that some are notable and listed in reliable sources. However many of those already have separate articles, especially as most numbered highways have articles.Dave (talk) 18:32, 29 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I agree. But I don't see it as real pressing issue. Is there any other site that wants a comprehensive list of hairpin turns that people could be directed to? - J. Johnson (JJ) (talk)

Coordinate error[edit]

{{geodata-check}} The coordinates need the following fixes:

  • Write here

Gu3ud1 (talk) 05:08, 12 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

+43° 51' 48.53", +7° 25' 55.83" 43.863481,7.432175

This does not seem to be a request for the correction of coordinates present in the article. I'm guessing that it's a request that the location be added to the list of examples in the article. Since that's not the purpose for which {{geodata-check}} is intended, I'm tl'ing the template to remove this page from Category:Talk pages requiring geodata verification. 17:37, 12 May 2010 (UTC)
Ah, now I see the coordinates in the image caption. You seem to have fixed them yourself, so all is well. Deor (talk) 18:04, 12 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The above coordinates of the Col de Braus photo were wrong, corrected them to 43° 51′ 58″ N, 7° 22′ 50″ E 195.56.155.161 (talk) 11:13, 9 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]


Parallel article, "Dead Man's Curve"[edit]

The article Dead Man's Curve has developed independently of the Hairpin turn article here. The former term is in common use in the United States, but does not seem to be prevalent elsewhere in the world. Usually a WP:MERGE would be appropriate, but the merged article would be quite long, and give undue weight to the US examples. I suggest instead that most of the US examples in this article be moved to the Dead Man's Curve article. The US coverage here would be trimmed to perhaps a few most salient examples of worldwide significance. The orphan Netherlands example from the Dead Man's Curve article should be moved to here, as well.

In the meantime, I have Wikilinked the articles to each other, and clarified the word usage. Reify-tech (talk) 19:44, 12 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with the non-merger, but for a different reason: The terms are not necessarily interchangeable. A hairpin turn refers to the geometry specifically, generally 180 degrees of arc or more; a "Dead Man's Curve" is noted for being deceptively sharp or otherwise hazardous, but number of degrees varies and usually does not approach 180, at least in the more famous examples (e.g. the Cleveland curve is less than 90). Mapsax (talk) 14:00, 13 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Agree with Mapsax. I'm sure there are regional variations. I spent some years on the west coast of the US, and the terms were not interchangeable there. The most famous Dead Man's Curve in the LA area, the Sunset Blvd bend where Mel Blanc crashed, is less than 90°. Kendall-K1 (talk) 13:52, 19 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

If this is the case, can somebody find a WP:RS for this distinction in meaning, and succinctly summarize it in both articles? Also, the fundamental issue with (semi-)parallel articles remains. The articles should still have pointers to each other, as there seems to be a lot of popular confusion or casual usage conflating the two terms. Reify-tech (talk) 19:36, 9 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I spot-checked a dozen of the "dead man's curves" and less than a quarter of them were hairpins. So the usage seems correct. But you're right, we do need a good source. I searched around but couldn't find anything reliable that gives a definition of "dead man's curve." Kendall-K1 (talk) 21:31, 9 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

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