Talk:Fred Trump/Archive 1

Archive 1

Untitled

heres a pic http://www.horatioalger.com/members/jpegs/tru85.jpg — Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.173.195.242 (talk • contribs) 21:25, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

German descent not Austrian

Sorry to interrupt but what is really interesting about Donald Trumps background is that there is almost nothing about his mother..All we are ever told is that she was born in the Isle of Lewis Scotland in 1912 and visited the USA when she was eighteen..She married Trumps father in 1936 when Trumps father was already a millionaire. We are never given ANY details about the mother.Did she or her family move to England where she was educated as many Scots people did ? What did her father do? Was he a poor farmer with a few sheep or the local doctor or richest person on the island? Where was she educated? Surely she must have been well educated or millionaire Trump would not have married her in the snobbish 1930s. She loved the Queen and the British Royels which reminds us that in all American documents until only a few years ago she would have been named as British,which of course she proudly was. This strange wiping out of his mother from any detailed information about Donald Trump is a remider of how persistent and deep rooted is resentment of anything British in American lives The wargs geneology mentioned below is quite amusing as there are the full details of Donalds father and his grand father and grand mother with Germany cropping up again and again but no mother is mentioned and no maternal grandparents! People do need mothers you know!! Could someone investigate this strange business? See genealogy. Rms125a@hotmail.com (talk) 01:31, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

This sentence suggests that British Columbia is part of the U.S.: Trump's father emigrated to the United States in 1885 and became a naturalized US citizen in 1892, anglicizing his name to "Frederick Trump", where he began his career running the Arctic Restaurant and Hotel in Bennett, British Columbia 83.37.37.30 (talk) 12:42, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

why on earth, in an article ostensibly about junior, is the "early life" devoted almost entirely to blather about the father? it says next to nothing about junior's early life. chris — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.34.49.193 (talk) 19:39, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

Need Articles On Friedrich Drumpf AND Elizabeth Christ

The Bush and Clinton families have extensive family tree articles. Allen750 (talk) 04:09, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

Civil suit

The listed information is incomplete and needs a rewrite to reflect the results of the full case. Here is a link to the Times insider article and the 1976 NY Times original article for reference. The Trump Organization was cleared of any charges after filing with the court years of leasing agreements showing that they did not discriminate against renters. The current information implies wrong doing where there was none. http://www.nytimes.com/times-insider/2015/07/30/1973-meet-donald-trump/?_r=0 https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/2186612-major-landlord-accuse-of-antiblack-bias-in-city.html 03:14, 17 March 2016 (UTC)Sharonsunness2012 (talk)

Age at formation of Elizabeth Trump & Son

This article says he was 15 when the company was formed, the article The Trump Organization says he was 18. Wickorama (talk) 11:48, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

It depends upon what you mean by “formed”. This reference (p119) says Elizabeth Christ Trump started developing real estate when Fred was 15 (1920). His level of involvement wasn’t clear. This reference says Elizabeth Trump & Son had been formed by the time he was 18 (1923). This reference is a newspaper of the day announcing a date of incorporation of 1927, when Fred was 22. It’s possible that they were doing business as “Elizabeth Trump & Son” before the company was formally incorporated.--Nowa (talk) 17:01, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 13 April 2016

Fred Trump was born in New Jersey in 1905 according to Donald Trump in page 66 of "Art of the Deal." He then subsequently live in Woodhaven, Queens, NY. http://www.wargs.com/other/trump.html I can find no birth or housing connection with the Bronx.

Austin parker platt (talk) 19:29, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

• See page 110 of this reference for his time in the Bronx as a young child.--Nowa (talk) 23:17, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

The birthplace for Fred Trump differs between the Early Life section: East Tremont Avenue in the Bronx [uncited], and the info-box: Woodhaven (in Queens). [What makes "William Addams Reitwiesner"'s personal genealogy webpage a reliable source?]

The Donald Trump article says of Fred: "His father, Fred, was born in Woodhaven, Queens. . ." [That citation, given through FamilySearch.org, gives information for Fred's father only, not for him.]

If there's no authoritative evidence for Fred's birthplace, like an acessible birth certificate, then perhaps the article should be either silent on a birthplace or mention that there is conflicting information. Thank you, Wordreader (talk) 09:10, 13 June 2016 (UTC)

Middle name?

His middle name was really "Christ"? I mean... wow. --Saforrest 14:20, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Wait a minute, was Christ really his middle name, or rather part of his last name? His mother's last name was Christ, so... --Distelfinck (talk) 15:20, 10 August 2015 (UTC)

It is a middle name, but many Americans are given their mother's maiden name as their middle name. 2001:14BA:27F6:AC00:3CCD:2829:4BB2:F8AB (talk) 15:04, 13 October 2016 (UTC)

Allegations of Klan connection

An editor proposed the following addition:

A 1927 New York Times article subtitled "Klan assails policeman," named Fred Trump, then 21, as an arrestee and listed his address—175-24 Devonshire Road, Jamaica after Ku Klux Klan members attacked policemen in a Queens, N.Y. “free-for-all."

I moved it here for further vetting. I suggest we reach consensus before adding it to the article.--Nowa (talk) 12:25, 11 September 2015 (UTC)

References

Seems like there's a lot of coverage on this, but not from the most reliable sources (though the original NYT article seems legit). This article by Talking Points Memo is a better source than Boing Boing and was also published by Business Insider. Ry's the Guy ^{(talk|contribs)} 12:14, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for the link to Talking Points. The article is still highly qualified (suggest...may...) so I think we need something more definitive before adding anything to the bio.Nowa (talk) 18:05, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

THere is a washington post article with the address Fred Trump lived at signed out of the prison he was held in — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.86.136.137 (talk) 00:33, 4 September 2016 (UTC)

I have removed it. There is no consensus. Trump has denied that it was his father. We can't have rumors in Wikipedia articles.Zigzig20s (talk) 23:27, 12 August 2016 (UTC)

A report in the NYT is not a rumor and whatever Trumps says has no weight. At best its self-interested, but really, everything Trump says is a lie, and I say that as objective fact. This needs to go back into the article and the person who removed it needs to be banned. I don't think wikipedia wants probable paid operatives of the Trump campaign vandalizing their articles.75.132.67.35 (talk) 12:47, 23 August 2016 (UTC)

I've never done any paid editing in my ten years of editing Wikipedia. There is no consensus to add this content. You are free to start an RFC if you want.Zigzig20s (talk) 12:52, 23 August 2016 (UTC)

A contemporary report in the Brooklyn Eagle reports that Fred Trump was taken to the hospital for an injury to his foot caused by police at the riot and not arrested at all, so best of luck getting to the bottom of this. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.21.181.249 (talk) 22:17, 10 November 2016 (UTC)

There is undue emphasis on the section about Fred Trump and the KKK rally. Unfortunately, I can't find anything that is neutral or credible about whether Fred Trump was truly there as a participant. It seems kind of unlikely that he was dressed up in KKK robes in New York City though.--FeralOink (talk) 07:31, 5 December 2016 (UTC)

1927 Klan Riot arrest

While there is no evidence proving Fred Trump was a member of the Klu Klux Klan, there is clear solid evidence of his arrest in the Klan Riot in 1927 New York City. This is a more than notable event. If someone wants to write up a section that does not bring current politics (which are clearly outside the scope of this article) into the matter, it would be greatly appreciated. As a note, please make added effort to remain [WP:NPOV] considering the volatility of the subject matter, and the current political situation surrounding the Trump family.--Robert Wm "Ruedii" (talk) 11:20, 20 September 2016 (UTC)

The Klan Riot appears to have been described incorrectly, or at least in a way that is incompatible with the source article. The Washington Post source does mention both the Italian Fascists and the KKK, but these appear to have been two separate riots on that day. It says that the fascist brawl happened in the Bronx, whereas the KKK brawl happened in Queens. They weren't brawling against each other. Mazzula (talk) 14:30, 29 September 2016 (UTC)

You are correct. The WaPo article says that, "In the fascist brawl, which took place in the Bronx, two Italian men were killed by anti-fascists. In Queens, 1,000 white-robed Klansmen marched through the Jamaica neighborhood, eventually spurring an all-out brawl in which seven men were arrested." The two groups were NOT fighting each other. The Bronx and Queens are separated by at least one body of water, and many miles. Also, there is no mention of Benito Mussolini in the WaPo article, so I am going to remove that. I will remove the part about the fascists, as that is irrelevant to this article.--FeralOink (talk) 15:24, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

Further facts vs. citations issues

After finding numerous examples of article content that could not be found in citation—generally one—appearing at ends of sentences or whole paragraphs, I've begun a systematic check of sentence content against the appearing inline citations (sources). While ongoing, I've placed the "under construction" tag atop the article. Until that tag is removed, please do not remove any inline tags appearing—they are marking the progress of sentences checked, in sections where discrepancies were found. As long as progress can be see—at least 1-2 times weekly visits to check citations—the under construction tag should also remain.

All are welcome to edit, of course; but please do not subvert the process of checking content against sources. It is a necessary first step for a GA submission. Cheers. Le Prof Leprof 7272 (talk) 19:48, 30 January 2017 (UTC)

Removal of plagiarism in the DOJ consent decree paragraph

Whole sentences were used, prior to today's edits, from the Village Voice article, precisely as they appeared there, and with no quotation marks or indents where they were used in the WP article. The issue was addressed, by making the plagiarised content into quotes; the result is a little clunky, but at least it is now honest scholarship. Note, the indented quotes need not remain indented (they can be turned into inline quotations, or paraphrased, to remove white space and condense appearance)—but any attempt to simply return the plagiarised content by carte blanche reversion will be taken to administrative review. (Edit and make it better, smoother, more polished; for now, this paragraph's content is largely fully accurate to sources, and it is cites them and so is no longer dishonest. Reversion would returns clear WP:VERIFY violating plagiarism.)

In addition, the one cited Village Voice URL actually contained two articles, one from 2015, and one from 1979 (in reprint, appended). These were deconvoluted, and now appear as separate citations, so readers using the footnotes can go much more directly to actual content from which particular WP sentences were derived. Finally, a further Wash Po citation was added, as a check of the VV material, and while more scholarship can be done, at least what appears in this substantial Controversy paragraph is consistent between these two sources. All for now. Le Prof Leprof 7272 (talk) 22:31, 30 January 2017 (UTC)

Place of birth [facts vs. citation issue]

The NYT article used as source for "Queens" ist misleading. According to Gwenda Blair, The Trumps, p. 110, his parents first settled in the Bronx, and Fred was born there three months later. This is omitted in the very short passage in the NYT. Blair describes at length that the family moved to Queens several years later, where they remained. --Klaus Frisch (talk) 17:33, 18 December 2016 (UTC)

@Klaus Frisch: Will try to deal with this. Cheers. Le Prof Leprof 7272 (talk) 00:27, 31 January 2017 (UTC)

Philanthropy source is promotional

The entire Philanthropy section (and thus the "philanthropist" label in the lede) are based on a paid obituary in the "classifieds" section of a newspaper, clearly a WP:QUESTIONABLE source. If no better source can be found, the section and label should be removed. 2602:306:37EB:38B0:2944:8FBD:9306:B664 (talk) 04:01, 2 November 2016 (UTC)

It is not promotional. The New York Times obituary has the same content as the paid obituary in the classified section that you mentioned, including all the philanthropy activity. I will replace it accordingly, so that both the section and label of philanthropist in the lead can be retained intact.--FeralOink (talk) 16:09, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

It is still promotional and has no place in Wikipedia. Wikipedia is not to glorify people. --L.Willms (talk) 16:54, best 29 January 2017 (UTC)

 Not done. We are an encyclopedic source that reports what the sources report. When a NYT obituary and other independent, third-party sources spend time on an individual's philanthropic activities, it is encyclopedic content—for the Rockefellers, for the Clintons, for the Trumps, for any notable individual where it is a subject appearing in their source material. For FT, controveries are reported and covered. Philanthropy is reported and covered. This is the nature of NPOV. State WP policies and guidelines to make clear your basis for any remaining objection. Until there is a basis for change, none is being made. Cheers, Le Prof Leprof 7272 (talk) 19:55, 30 January 2017 (UTC)

An encyclopedic source would report that a third party, like the NYT or else had called Mr. Trump an "philoantropist", without making this attribution its own. This professor (of the Trump University?)

This personal attack says more about you—your lack of objectivity, and willingness to draw conclusions based on no evidence—than it does about me. Le Prof Leprof 7272 (talk) 23:45, 30 January 2017 (UTC)

...does the opposite, wants to asset alternative facts. The supposed "philantropism" of Mr. Trump could be mentioned in the section "controversy". But I know, the Wikipedia is not what it claims to be. It is partial, it is partisan, it is biased -- towards the powers that be. This is one has to know when consulting Wikipedia. Lots of paid and unpaid PR agents are writing here. --L.Willms (talk)

I am not sure if all the variant spellings of the word philanthropy are intentional and aiming to communicate something, or just haste. Regardless, I have clearly stated that WP:VERIFY says we report what sources report, and you state otherwise, but fail to support what is clearly your opinion (Your stating that "An encyclopedic source would report that a third party, like the NYT... [had stated something] ...without making this attribution its own" is simply your view/opinion, and not a WP policy or guideline.) Indeed, our style guidelines explicitly argue against "stating that a source states..."—per WP:OR, editors do not report their own opinions, they report the views others have published, and the inline citation that appears is sufficient to make clear who it is that is responsible for the view. That is, if sufficient good sources say Fred Trump and his wife were philanthropists, we say that they were, and cite these sources.

Since you have made no attempt to argue from WP policies and guidelines, since you convolute the biographies of the son (different article) with the father (Fred, this article)—e.g., in your bringing up Trump Univ.—and since neither @FeralOink: or myself give any indication of being anything other than rule-following scholars in our endeavours... I can only conclude it is you that is bring personal bias and animus to the article, and that I should pay no more attention to this argument. Unless, of course, you state a solid basis in WP:VERIFY, WP:NPOV, etc., rather than just expressing personal views about this subject/family and the conspiracies you perceive to exist at Wikipedia to silence your view. Le Prof Leprof 7272 (talk) 23:45, 30 January 2017 (UTC)

I would note in closing that the edits I have made, in checking the Controversy subsection content against sources, have resulted (i) in addition of Washington Post and New York Times articles as sources, and (ii) in expansion of material critical to the article's subject. Taken together, to an objective party, the case is better made than I am unsympathetic to the subject, than sympathetic as you argue with your "[WP] is partial, it is partisan, it is biased -- towards the powers that be" accusation in response to @FeralOink: and my votes to leave the short Philanthropy section outside of the Controversy subsection, as you propose. Le Prof Leprof 7272 (talk) 00:58, 31 January 2017 (UTC)

Instead replying to my contribution, "LeProf" destroys its integrity. Modifying other peoples contributions on the Talk pages is an absolut no go on Wikipedia, absolutely inacceptable. This person, hiding behind a pseudonym, confirms the impression he made on first sight. --L.Willms (talk) 09:35, 4 February 2017 (UTC)

L.Willms, you are making some rather inflammatory accusations, and that is rude. I will make sure that philanthropy is not misspelled anywhere in the article. Wikipedia has sections on philanthropic material in BLPs IFF the subject's philanthropic activities are notable and verifiable. In this case, they are. To apply alternative criteria, just because YOU do not like the subject of the article, would be biased and partisan. We apply the same standards to everyone. For example, we include the philanthropic activities of the Ukrainian and Russian oligarchs in their BLPs.--FeralOink (talk) 01:22, 31 January 2017 (UTC)

Career section concern

The text is getting more accurate and less cribbed. But it is also getting longer. The Controversy section contains a few major issues over many decades (two major, FHA and DOJ investigations). It is now longer than the whole rest of the Career section. For balance, the actual Career portion of the Career section should be expanded. And/or, the Controversy subsection should be presented more succinctly. The challenge to the Career section is the same as at the article on DJT. The son began participating in the business in his 20s, and became Trump Org president before 30. This means, for a significant part of the father's business story, it is convoluted with the son's. This will likely make it a challenge to arrive at the hard numbers for the period of father's Trump Org chairmanship alongside the son's Trump Org presidency. (Hard to begin with, because it is a privately held firm.) But there it is. The Career part needs careful attention, and to be expanded. 165.20.114.246 (talk) 23:28, 30 January 2017 (UTC)

I agree about the excessive length of the controversy sub-section. (It contains some repetitive and marginally related content too.) The same is true of other parts of the article. I can't find much biographical information about Fred Trump without interleaving details about Donald Trump, just as you said. Without that, it is difficult to expand the article. I will try a little bit more.--FeralOink (talk) 22:39, 18 February 2017 (UTC)

2700 apartments or 27,000?

There are three different mentions of the number of homes that Trump built. In the lead, it says Trump built 27,000 apartments and row homes. In two other sections (maybe even the same section), it says 2,700. I will try to find out which number is correct. If anyone else finds out before I do, please correct the article.--FeralOink (talk) 22:35, 18 February 2017 (UTC)

The 27,000 number refers to the total that he built. At another point, it mentions a total of 2,700, but that's just in two projects in Bensonhurst and Coney Island. Both of those numbers come from the same NYT article. In a third place it mentioned 27,000 affordable units, which is unsourced. I changed the unsourced 27,000 affordable units to 2,700 because we already know that the total of all units was 27,000, so 27,000 affordable units doesn't make sense. My guess would be that that unsourced statement refers to the same 2,700 in Bensonhurst and Coney Island, but we would need a source to verify that. -- Irn (talk) 17:56, 19 February 2017 (UTC)

Conflicting references concerning foundation of E. Trump & son

It seems like this reference and this one have conflicting information about the year in which Elizabeth Trump & Son Co. was established (1927 vs. 1920). Just noting this here until someone is able to find more references to back up one of the 2 claims. Ry's the Guy ^{(talk|contribs)} 11:52, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

The one and only plausible date that is also circulating is 1923. In 1920, Fred was still at school, and in 1927 he was 22 so that there would have been no reason for this interim arrangement. Unfortunately, Blairs book The Trumps, which seems to be the by far most reliable source up to now, is not explicit in respect to the exact date. --Klaus Frisch (talk) 00:38, 26 February 2017 (UTC)

His death

Should the top section mention of his father's death refer to him as "lost". I feel like not only does it deny us any information on the nature of his father's death (murder, car crash, disease, suicide?), but it also uses a non-literal euphemism for death in an encyclopedia article. (Did they lose him at Knott's Berry Farm? Will he be reappearing at some point?) Spawn777 (talk) 15:59, 5 May 2017 (UTC)

Unexplained reversion

Having been reverted by TheGracefulSlick when changing from {{infobox officeholder}} to {{infobox person}}, I figure I should bring the matter to the talk page. What is your rationale for the existing infobox, TheGracefulSlick? 142.160.131.202 (talk) 21:15, 28 June 2017 (UTC)

Affordable housing

We may need to flesh out, "Trump built and operated affordable rental housing via large apartment complexes in New York City, including more than 2,700 low-income multifamily apartments and row houses in the neighborhoods of Coney Island, Bensonhurst, Sheepshead Bay, Flatbush, and Brighton Beach in Brooklyn, and Flushing and Jamaica Estates in Queens." Supposedly Trump Village was one of them?Zigzig20s (talk) 16:08, 10 March 2018 (UTC)

Actually Trump Village is mentioned earlier. Could we find a full list of all the buildings he built please?Zigzig20s (talk) 16:32, 10 March 2018 (UTC)

Trumpf, Drump

Well in the palatinate people would pronounce the name "Trumpf" in their Palatine German language like "Drump" (Droomp with a short"oo") as "pf" is always spoken as "p" and the starting "T" is spoken very soft (somewhere between "D" and "T"...) reminding more of a "D". --FK1954 (talk) 15:26, 27 July 2018 (UTC)

Language edits to 1927 march section

An editor has repeatedly proposed that the language used in the title is not appropriate and paints a biased picture of the person. Can any other editors, preferably those with expertise in the Manual of Style, check this? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Maguirej03 (talk • contribs) 01:57, 4 November 2018 (UTC)

Fred's early business career

I've edited the claim that he went into business forming "E Trump and son" at 15. Here it the link to the newspaper article starting "E Trump and Son" has been formed. It dates from 1927. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.189.27.68 (talk) 20:48, 10 September 2015 (UTC)

http://fultonhistory.com/highlighter/highlight-for-xml?altUrl=http%3A%2F%2Ffultonhistory.com%2FNewspaper%252015%2FBrooklyn%2520NY%2520Daily%2520Star%2FBrooklyn%2520NY%2520Daily%2520Star%25201927%2FBrooklyn%2520NY%2520Daily%2520Star%25201927%2520-%25200653.pdf&xml=http%3A%2F%2Ffultonhistory.com%2FdtSearch%2Fdtisapi6.dll%3Fcmd%3Dgetpdfhits%26u%3D6c404f01%26DocId%3D9682416%26Index%3DZ%253a%255cIndex%2520I%252dE%252dV%26HitCount%3D3%26hits%3D9b%2B9c%2B9d%2B%26SearchForm%3D%252fFulton%255fNew%255fform%252ehtml%26.pdf&openFirstHlPage=false

Regarding Fred's alleged KKK membership

It is highly doubtful Fred Trump was a member of the KKK. Fred Trump came from a German-speaking immigrant family and Germans after World I were still not considered regular Americans. Also, those Germans from the Queens New York area tended to keep to themselves, speak German and maintain German customs and culture, something the KKK would have vehemently opposed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2606:A000:8C8B:4300:C808:EBDA:66BB:E7BC (talk) 13:53, 27 October 2018 (UTC)

Is the POTUS in the Daily Mail not deemed a more reliable source than an anonymous third-party guess at a police report we've never seen?

This article asserts that Fred C Trump was arrested. But in the citations, "Donald Trump vehemently denied his father's arrest. 'He was never arrested. He has nothing to do with this. This never happened. This is nonsense and it never happened,' he said to the Daily Mail. 'This never happened. Never took place. He was never arrested, never convicted, never even charged. It's a completely false, ridiculous story. He was never there! It never happened. Never took place.'" This vehemence and coming from a written journalistic source, from the most powerful person in the world, surely trumps an anonymous source. To claim his father was arrested is to call the PResident a barefaced liar, which is surely treasonous at best, libel at worst. 2.31.166.135 (talk) 07:04, 22 February 2019 (UTC)

All presidents are liars, because, you know, they're human. UpdateNerd (talk) 07:14, 22 February 2019 (UTC)

Fred Trump birthplace

Should maybe update Fred Trump's place of birth. According to his son, Donald Trump, who has stated multiple times, that his father was born in Germany. [1] [2] 205.202.215.204 (talk) 21:24, 2 April 2019 (UTC)

D Trump has also said his father was born in Sweden before — Preceding unsigned comment added by Froginatophat (talk • contribs) 01:26, 3 April 2019 (UTC)

Maybe he gets his father mixed up with his grandfather, who was also named Fred. The Donald said it again today, and plenty of sources are pointing out that he is wrong about this.[3][4] -- MelanieN (talk) 01:39, 3 April 2019 (UTC)

I have reorganized the "early life" section so that it now says in the first sentence that he was born in the Bronx. That information is usually in the first sentence of the "early life" section in biographies. Also I made the information about his parents chronological and removed some redundancy. -- MelanieN (talk) 19:17, 3 April 2019 (UTC)

Redundant photos

The pair of matching portraits of him that are stacked on top of each other are repetitively redundant and doubly duplicative. Same hairline. Same mustache. Same expression. Same lighting. Slightly different pose. It's like looking at the two frames from a stereoscope, except that he's wearing different coats. Getting from 35 to 45 without obvious signs of aging is not that noteworthy, and I think it looks ridiculous to waste space showing that. Tverbeek (talk) 16:04, 3 April 2019 (UTC)

Although the framing and angle are very similar, the facial features changed enough to warrant including both images. Again, there are limited images to choose from, so including somewhat similar ones is better than nothing, until better images become available. (Also, there are 10 years, not 5, between the photograph dates.) UpdateNerd (talk) 07:23, 5 April 2019 (UTC)

1) No, the differences are objectively trivial. 2) We don't need two images of him from that period of his life, so there is no need for a placeholder. 3) I never claimed that they were 5 years apart. 4) I just noticed that you misstated the copyright status of the 1950 photo, claiming it was published without a copyright notice, so we can't use it in any case. Tverbeek (talk) 20:34, 9 May 2019 (UTC)

@Tverbeek: Please see the image talk page for the proper copyright status information and add to the discussion there if you can.

As for your other objections, I disagree. 10 years is a reasonable gap, and the likenesses are markedly different when you get over the fact that they're both similarly framed achromatic images. The countenance is different, and we only have a small handful of images to choose from here. If a majority decides it should be removed, fine, but it also helps to explain Fred Trump's presence in the Brooklyn Eagle. He appeared in it a myriad of times and also wrote for the paper, so it helps to illustrate that point as well. Thanks, UpdateNerd (talk) 05:03, 10 May 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 6 June 2019

Please change Mary Anne MacLeod's birthplace from Glasgow to Tong, Isle of Lewis. Kitbits (talk) 16:08, 6 June 2019 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. MrClog (talk) 16:11, 6 June 2019 (UTC)

This is clearly correct from the Mary Anne MacLeod article. UpdateNerd (talk) 02:23, 7 June 2019 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:

• Friedrich Trump Family (retouched).jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 22:21, 21 June 2019 (UTC)

Please note that that the information about why the KKK marched in Queens on Memorial Day in 1927 is inaccurate. It was for Memorial Day, and while they protested what they felt was unfair treatment AFTER the fracas, that was not the reason for their march, which was as last contingent of a typical Memorial Day parade. Their inclusion was controversial and they were heckled and jostled by others before the police tried to block them from marching. Read any article about this.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 146.111.194.9 (talk • contribs)

Wealth and estate

"In 1976, Trump had set up trust funds of $1 million for each of his five children and three grandchildren ($4.4 million in 2018 dollars), that paid out yearly dividends."

Was it one trust fund of $1 million that covered all five children and 3 grandchildren? The sentence structure and plural "funds" could lead one to believe that eight $1 million dollar funds were set up, which would be worth significantly more than $4.4 million today.

Any input before it is edited?

PhillyHarold 20:07, 5 December 2019 (UTC)

They each got set up with $1 million, which is the equivalent of $4.4 million today. I've made a copyedit to make this more clear. UpdateNerd (talk) 21:45, 5 December 2019 (UTC)

Awesome. Thanks so much. PhillyHarold 00:45, 8 December 2019 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by PhillyHarold (talk • contribs)

"Erroneously"? Nay, "falsely".

Under the heading "Personal life", the penultimate sentence of the penultimate paragraph reads "Donald Trump's 'The Art of the Deal' (1987) erroneously states that Fred Trump was the son of an immigrant from Sweden and born in New Jersey." The word "erroneously" is itself erroneous, since it means "in error", and an error may be innocent or accidental. No such justification could apply here, given that Trump himself was ostensibly the author of the book and the source for the claim. The accurate term would be "falsely". I have corrected the text. Bricology (talk) 20:29, 16 November 2019 (UTC)

I agree with your change, as all erroneous claims are false, but not all false claims are erroneous. UpdateNerd (talk) 21:03, 16 November 2019 (UTC)

I know this is Wikipedia and all but are editors mindreaders that can peer into Trump's head and how can anyone see people talking like this and then claim they're being neutral? Jarwulf (talk) 13:50, 16 December 2019 (UTC)

Can't edit article, but please Help

"He was a prominent real-estate developer in New York City and the father of Donald Trump, the 45th president of the United States, and Maryanne Trump Barry, a former United States Court of Appeals judge."

With proper grammar the sentence should read, "45th president of the United States; and Maryanne Trump Barry, a former United States Court of Appeals judge."

This removes confusion and is one of the purposes of the semicolon, if you have edit privileges please help Ayoung62000 (talk) 16:25, 6 January 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for the suggestion. I agree it was confusing, but I think it was because there were too many "and"s in the sentence, making it run-on and confusing. I broke the sentence into two. I think that makes it clear enough (He was the father of X and Y) that we don't need a semicolon. -- MelanieN (talk) 18:19, 6 January 2020 (UTC)

Your semicolon is not grammatically correct. A semicolon is allowed before a conjunction only for independent clauses, and even then it's considered outdated. -- Jibal (talk) 07:25, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

Including

Under "Philanthropy", "including" seems to be a mistake for "included". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A00:23C4:7C87:4F00:7090:AAF5:E1AF:F99A (talk) 13:04, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 23 June 2020

Change "...his body is interred at Lutheran All Faiths Cemetery in Middle Village, Queens." To: "...his body is buried at Lutheran All Faiths Cemetery in Middle Village, Queens." 2601:246:C00:377:4D0B:13D4:32C6:2BE3 (talk) 22:52, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

That is done, and thanks for pointing that out as it led to other interesting details. UpdateNerd (talk) 00:12, 24 June 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 13 July 2020

Please, up date the link to footnote 19

• from: https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/all-the-evidence-we-could-find-about-fred-trumps-alleged-involvement-with-the-kkk

• to: https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/mvke38/all-the-evidence-we-could-find-about-fred-trumps-alleged-involvement-with-the-kkk

Merci. --87.170.195.194 (talk) 08:56, 13 July 2020 (UTC)

Done. Thanks. UpdateNerd (talk) 15:38, 13 July 2020 (UTC)

Mention of Fred Jr. missing?

Is there a reason not to mention his third and oldest son, Fred Jr. in de first line of the article? You could link to Fred Trump Jr. His other two children are mentioned, this way it looks like these are his only two children. Or is there a Wikipedia reason not to do that, that I'm not aware of? AdriaanRenting (talk) 14:05, 23 July 2020 (UTC)

Additionally, a recent British TV documentary describes Fred Jr. as likeable, but he replaced the windows of a residential apartment block, which proved his apparent lack of business sense to his father, thus changing his career path and opening the position of manager to Donald. According to Donald (being interviewed in the documentary), Fred Jr. did not like business. Fred Jr. became a boat captain when his pilot career ended. TGCP (talk) 15:10, 23 July 2020 (UTC)

There's no reason to list him in the lead as he wasn't publicly prominent. UpdateNerd (talk) 03:17, 24 July 2020 (UTC)

Fred Trump's net worth

Mary Trump, Fred Trump's grand daughter, claims Fred Trump's net worth was almost 1 000 000 000 USD (one billion) at 52:30 of https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rp_Ew98D4OM . Wikipedia says 200-300 million USD. From the video I believe it is detailed in 2019 Pullitzer winning article/s (David Barstow, Susanne Craig and Russ Buettner of The New York Times). She said therein she had helped get those journalists 19 boxes of family documents.

It was nearly $825 million in 1999. I will document it soon, please give me a while. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Szozdakosvi (talk • contribs) 15:02, 21 July 2020 (UTC)

Szozdakosvi (talk)

HERE TO FINISH THE PROMISED EDIT:

Would you please consider changing and then hopefully change the Net worth, reference incl., to

"nearly US $825 million (June 1999)".

From the article: Fred Trump’s 1995 gift tax return claimed that the 25 apartment complexes and other properties in the trusts were worth just $41.4 million. The implausibility of this claim would be made plain in 2004, when banks valued that same real estate at nearly $900 million. (In two grantor-retained annuity trusts, or GRATs, one for each parent, in 2004 dollars + 30 million extra in 1999 dollars)

The value in the two GRATs divided by 1.025^5 to account for each year's inflation (between 2004 and 1999) gives 795 million in 1999 dollars.

Fred Trump's net worth was nearly $795 mil. in two GRATs + 30 mil. taxed. Combined Fred Trump's net worth was "nearly $825 million in 1999".

Respectfully (I've read I can update it myself. And took the liberty to.) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Szozdakosvi (talk • contribs) 17:07, 27 July 2020 (UTC)

Szozdakosvi (talk)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• FredTrump1950-05.png

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 02:52, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

Fred Trump's Ku Klux Klan membership

Today user UpdateNerd reverted my correction of the article noting Fred Trump's 1927 arrest in Klan regalia. He states, without evidence, "he was probably a bystander." The article referenced clearly states that all seven men arrested, including Fred Trump, were wearing Klan robes. Bystanders do not get to wear the robes. Trump was able to get his charges dismissed, but that does not negate the well-documented fact that he was arrested at a Klan rally wearing Klan robes. If in doubt consult this: https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/mvke38/all-the-evidence-we-could-find-about-fred-trumps-alleged-involvement-with-the-kkkRcarlberg (talk) 20:43, 22 August 2020 (UTC)

One of the men was run over by a police car. Only five of them were certainly wearing robes. Look at all of the cited sources. And we should leave the section titles minimal, rather than present POV that does not necessarily reflect the reality or reliable sources. UpdateNerd (talk) 03:56, 23 August 2020 (UTC)

I don't see what somebody being run over has to do with the story. I personally think Fred Trump's membership in the KKK is noteworthy, and whitewashing it serves no neutral purpose. But I guess the facts are discernible from the body of the paragraph, and if people feel being coy about the facts serves some purpose, I won't further argue the point.Rcarlberg (talk) 19:15, 23 August 2020 (UTC)

Blair's Trump biography

@UpdateNerd: Re your edit summary. They're all the same book, originally published in 2000 under the title The Trumps : three generations that built an empire. In 2015 the published the paperback edition under the title The Trumps : three generations of builders and a candidate. In November 2016, they put a new preface into it and changed the title to The Trumps : three generations of builders and a president. That's the edition I have and cited from (it lists the ISBNs of the hardcover, paperback, and ebook editions). The cited page 10 is the same in the paperback and the ebook. It mentions the exact date (May 16, 1989) of D. Trump signing the Trump Game boxes at the FAO Schwarz store, the event Blair mentions in the Politico article: There was an elderly gent in a faded raincoat, sitting over on the side, that I knew was Fred Trump, so I went over and talked to him. This was in about the early ’90s, and he was semi-out-of-it at that time. Space4Time3Continuum2x (talk) 17:56, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

I'm aware they're the same book. We don't need to cite from multiple editions, as that adds confusion. As far as the year he developed Alzheimer's by, please be careful that's not extrapolating from the source. Someone in their 80s being "out of it" at an event they have little interest or involvement in doesn't mean they have Alzheimer's. UpdateNerd (talk) 18:17, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

Mary Trump's book, "Too Much and Never Enough," asserts that Fred Trump developed Alzheimer's six years before he died. That would make it 1993, give or take.Rcarlberg (talk) 16:46, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

That's the same figure as Trump's obituary in The New York Times, which is cited by our article. UpdateNerd (talk) 16:53, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

Investigations

@Ldinorci: The fact that the IRS didn't catch any potential fraud at that time doesn't mean it was conducted. Please provide a source exonerating Mr. Trump from any crimes before changing the article to fit alternative facts about these events. Thanks. UpdateNerd (talk) 11:29, 6 October 2020 (UTC)

You have it backwards., First comes an accusation of a crime, then the accuser presents evidence. Since there was no evidence of a crime, Trump was not charged with tax evasion. That is what I was trying to get at here. If you make an accusation that cannot be proven true, then that is simply a defamation. For example, if I were to accuse you of a crime publicly, you can sue me for defamation. The fact that you can't exonerate yourself is not a defence to the defamation.Ldinorci (talk) 21:21, 6 October 2020 (UTC)

Well said, instead of putting in "alternative facts". Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 21:27, 6 October 2020 (UTC)

The article doesn't allege that he was charged of said crimes. UpdateNerd (talk) 06:56, 7 October 2020 (UTC)

Main image

Please see my discussion at the recently uploaded main picture's talk page about why it not meet the fair-use requirement. Thanks, UpdateNerd (talk) 07:40, 15 January 2021 (UTC)

Edit warring

@Dean Louton: Please discuss your intended changes, since you didn't provide an edit summary. UpdateNerd (talk) 21:23, 29 March 2021 (UTC)

Fred Trump's cousin Fred Trump

UpdateNerd The Arizona Fred's newspaper campaign ad says that he's the cousin of Trump's uncle John but how is that possible? None of Trump's grandfather Friedrich's brothers immigrated to the U.S. One of his sisters did, married a man named Schuster. There are many Trumps in the U.S. who are not related to Donald Trump. Here's the sum total as of October 2016. Space4Time3Continuum2x (talk) 16:23, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

He must be a more distant relative, name-dropping to score political points. I'll remove it from the article. UpdateNerd (talk) 01:55, 10 July 2021 (UTC)

Fred's early life and career: Vocational education during high school

The treatment of Fred's early life has gone through several cycles of careful editing, so further changes may benefit from more justification/discussion than an edit summary permits. Of course, Fred's early life is poorly documented. Most of the info comes from Fred himself, who offered various versions of his life to journalists over the course of decades. I've added a note to this effect inside the article to help readers (basically, caveat lector). But I think we can provide more specific qualifications and corrections based on the secondary literature, such as it is.

One relatively small point is about Fred's vocational education.

The current version states that Fred engaged in all sorts of vocational education -- both night and correspondent courses -- while also attending high school and holding down a series of jobs:

From 1918 to 1923, Fred attended Richmond Hill High School in Queens, while working as a caddy, curb whitewasher, delivery boy, and newspaper hawker ... Interested in becoming a builder, Fred took night classes in carpentry and reading blueprints. He also studied plumbing, masonry, and electrical wiring via correspondence courses. After graduating in January 1923, Trump obtained full-time work pulling lumber to construction sites. He found work as a carpenter's assistant and continued his education at Pratt Institute.

This is a tenuous claim. Prior to Blair (2000/2015), all profiles restricted Fred's vocational education to after high school. That is, he worked as an apprentice carpenter and studied carpentry on the side, which is at least plausible. Here are six sources from 1950 through 1993, five of which are already cited in the article:

Roth (1950): "At 18, following graduation, he took a job as a carpenter's helper, supplementing this practical experience with courses in building construction three nights a week in the YMCA."

Snyder (1964): "After high school the youth took a job as a 'horse's helper' ... The builder-to-be later became a full-fledged carpenter, took courses in blueprint reading and other subjects related to the construction select field."

Whitman (1973): "[Fred recalled] 'Just after I graduated from high school, I got a job as a horse's helper.' ... From being a 'horse's helper' the young man went on to become a carpenter's assistant. And to learn more about the trade he took night courses in building construction at the Young Men's Christian Association."

Tucille (1985): "Later [after high school] Fred became a full-fledged carpenter, then attended the Pratt Institute in Brooklyn, where he studied blueprint reading, mechanical drawing, and other construction-related subjects."

Kathy Larkin, New York Daily News, June 5, 1988, summarizing speech by Fred's son Robert: "In the winter of 1922, a new high school graduate, [Fred] got a job as a "horse's helper," dragging lumber up snowy slopes to building sites. Next stop carpenter's assistant and night courses in construction at the Young Men's Christian Association."

Hurt (1993): "His only formal education beyond high school consisted of a few night courses in construction management at Pratt Institute"

In sum, there was consistency about when Fred studied, hazy consistency about what Fred studied, and some disagreement about where: YMCA or Pratt. In this context, Blair (2000/2015) is the outlier, and, to my knowledge, no one has verified or added to her claims since. She's the only one to suggest Fred studied at both YMCA and Pratt, the only one to mention "correspondence school," and the only one to place any of this during high school. All this despite no substantially new sources, just the profiles above and additional interviews with Fred and Robert. Here's what she wrote:

- During high school: "Now he took night courses at the local YMCA in carpentering and reading blueprints, and he studied plumbing, masonry, and electrical wiring in correspondence courses."

- After high school: "He got work as a carpenter and took courses at Pratt Institute in Brooklyn in engineering, estimating, and other construction-related subjects. 'I learned how to frame walls more efficiently than other people, how to read a blueprint more accurately and faster,' he said years later."

I don't doubt that Blair heard something like this, but she struggles to make sense of any of it. Notice the quotation from Fred re:Pratt. It's about reading blueprints, which he supposedly had already studied during high school. Elsewhere, her book marvels that Fred must have suffered from "exhaustion" during high school. Indeed. Unendin (talk) 04:10, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 28 September 2021 — change FRED to DONALD?

CURRENT: In the Legacy section, 3rd paragraph, last sentence reads, "In her book, Mary, a clinical psychologist, diagnoses Fred as a high-functioning sociopath.[153]"

EDIT: I think "Fred" should actually be his SON, "Donald J." Trump? Wiki-mddc (talk) 02:39, 28 September 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: From source: and were shaped by his “high-functioning sociopath” father during childhood ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 11:05, 28 September 2021 (UTC)

Add year and event info to Fred Trump photos

Two photographs by Bernard Gotfryd recently released through the Library of Congress are now featured in the Fred Trump article. One in particular, the cropped headshot, not only represents our subject in the infobox but also in several related articles. The photo is a clear improvement over the previous news clippings in terms of color and resolution. On the downside, Fred is not looking at the camera (can't do much about that) and the metadata is skimpy (this we can fix).

The photo was taken in 1986 at Wollman Rink. For anyone familiar with the rink and Donald's doings in 80s, this is immediately apparent: the wood pergola in the background is an iconic element of the rink which Donald renovated and opened, with much fanfare, in the second half of 1986. We can also verify this, without synthetic leaps, though the task is made harder than necessary by the surfeit of events around the rink opening and the sloppiness of some of the underlying sources.

To begin, the LOC punts on the relevant information, offering no location or event and only a vague, off-by-one date range of 1980-1985. Getty improves the situation. They have the work of another photographer at the same photo opp and identify the event as "opening of the restored Wollman Rink." There is a photo nearly identical to our headshot except black & white (https://www.gettyimages.com/detail/news-photo/developer-fred-trump-attends-the-opening-of-the-restored-news-photo/1049342856). Note the wood beams overhead. This is a unique and massive structure that spans about a third of the rink's circumference (see https://www.flickr.com/photos/jbernstein899/49258437061) and is prominent in satellite images (https://www.google.com/maps/@40.767962,-73.9746651,228m/data=!3m1!1e3). Getty also has a wider shot from the same series that shows more of Fred's outfit including the same bric-a-brac in his suit pocket (https://www.gettyimages.com/detail/news-photo/developers-robert-and-fred-trump-attend-the-opening-of-the-news-photo/1049302564), as well as one of Donald in the same get-up (https://www.gettyimages.com/detail/news-photo/developer-donald-trump-attends-the-opening-of-the-restored-news-photo/1049302536). Finally, Getty offers a photo from a third photographer that shows Donald and Fred at the event (https://www.gettyimages.com/detail/news-photo/donald-trump-and-father-fred-trump-at-opening-of-wollman-news-photo/97336674).

Unfortunately, Getty has the date of the event wrong, as is often the case. Wollman was renovated during 1986, not 1987. Donald held an excess of events related to its opening (see https://www.nytimes.com/1986/11/15/nyregion/about-new-york-pssst-here-s-a-secret-trump-rebuilds-ice-rink.html): ceremonial opening on October 31, 1986 (with Dick Button, et al.); opening to the public on November 13, 1986; and a celebration of the project (with Peggy Fleming, Dorothy Hamill, et al.) on November 22, 1986.

It's not so simple to determine which "opening" is photographed, so "1986" is safer. That said, the photos are almost certainly from November 22, 1986. This was the date of a private, Trump-funded celebration, "The Party on the Pond," with maximal star wattage and Donald at the center (https://www.newspapers.com/image/101820298). There are photos of Donald in the same outfit alongside Hamill, Fleming, etc. who attended only that event (https://assets.bwbx.io/images/users/iqjWHBFdfxIU/i_.ioE45kt9M/v2/2400x-1.jpg). The New York Historical Society also holds a collection of Bernard Gotfryd's photos. Their finding aid (http://dlib.nyu.edu/findingaids/html/nyhs/gotfryd/dscref11.html) does not list Fred, but does include "Trump, Donald - 1986,1987 (See also: Flutie, Doug; Hamill, Dorothy)" and "Hamill, Dorothy at Wollman Rink - 1987." So, on this account, Bernard Gotfryd was present to photograph Trump and Hamill at Wollman Rink, the date of which was assuredly November 22, 1986. Unendin (talk) 21:47, 29 September 2021 (UTC)

I think you make some great points, and I'd have no problem if you changed the metadata to say "possibly 1986 or 1987". However this doesn't completely convince me to say definitively or change captions on any of the articles. Here's why:

• Are we sure that the rink was not being built in 1985, and that Fred Trump was simply photographed there before the opening? It's a very similar photograph to the one dated 1987, which is the best evidence, but according to Getty is by a photographer named Rita Barros. In defense of the caption citing "the 1980s", it's correct either way, and doesn't need to be changed where the image is just used to identify Trump on articles. UpdateNerd (talk) 01:58, 30 September 2021 (UTC)

Agreed, the caption's not a big deal in this context. I just wanna lock down more of the file metadata for future uses. The LOC & Gotfryd were kind enough to release 9,000 pix, but they didn't bother with any details. As to the date, all the usual sources—Art of the Deal, Gwenda Blair's bio, contemporaneous news, etc.—limit the project to 1986. Donald reached out to Koch in March of 1986; the construction was complete at the end of October (up to that point, the whole area looked like a messy construction site); and there followed a month of a million "Wollman opening" photo opps. Donald has made hay about it ever since, but not staged any similar events/photo opps. Getty says this was one of those opening events and that only makes sense. As you say, they're almost just hanging out. This is not the ribbon cutting moment. But they're smiling for multiple professional photographers. Other photos in the Gotfryd series show Trump being interviewed, trying out the seats for guests, etc. The Getty dates however are all over the place and ultimately useless. They have another pic of the Hamill/Trump Wollman opening event (https://www.gettyimages.com/detail/news-photo/skaters-dorothy-hamill-scott-hamilton-ny-mayor-david-news-photo/634300626) with a creation date of April 1, 1984 and caption citing November 13, 1986 (it was November 22). I think we're on safe ground amending the file summary date to "1986" or "possibly November 1986" and the description (not caption) to a variant of Getty, eg, "Fred Trump attends event celebrating opening of the restored Wollman Rink in Central Park" or "Fred Trump attends event celebrating restoration of Wollman Rink in Central Park by his son Donald." Unendin (talk) 03:45, 30 September 2021 (UTC)

I think you've done some excellent sleuthing, though I'd prefer to stay on the safe side by using words such as "apparently" when specifying the event. At least we can be definite about the location. UpdateNerd (talk) 05:51, 30 September 2021 (UTC)

Fred Trump / KKK : Proven misnformation is published as fact in this article.

I'm not going to dare make this edit myself ... but, there was never an arrest and there are no arrest records for Fred Trump at a 1927 KKK Rally. The claim was debunked + the information provided in this article is inaccurate.

Linked article provides a list of sources which detail that the information is false. If this were true - by the subject of this article - I feel I could safely say we all know well that it would have been publicized far more than it has been.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2020/06/18/fact-check-fred-trump-detained-kkk-rally-circumstances-unclear/3209853001/

--Kyanwan (talk) 19:03, 29 December 2021 (UTC)

It's not been disproven; quite the opposite in fact. The only thing that's uncertain is whether Trump was wearing Klan robes or was just an onlooker. He was in fact recorded as being arrested (with his address proving his identity), but was discharged. Five others were kept on bail, so that may suggest they were actual Klansmen, while Trump was there under different circumstances. UpdateNerd (talk) 19:19, 29 December 2021 (UTC)

The phrase "Proven misinformation" appears itself to be misinformation, in light of the careful referencing of the Klan paragraph in the article. The multiple references do not claim or assert that Trump was a Klan member; only that he was arrested during the incident. The event deserves coverage, because it became an issue during the 2016 presidential campaign. News about the event of 1927 was not "publicized far more" during 2016, because information about Trump's role, if any, in the incident was quite inconclusive, as shown by referencing in this article. DonFB (talk) 02:49, 30 December 2021 (UTC)

Continued Demonisation of Trump

I'm not an American but I appalled by this so called history of the Trump family. If there was even one positive thing written here I'd maybe accept it but it's obviously just another hatchet job on the Trump. 1.43.206.72 (talk) 01:14, 28 May 2022 (UTC)

Indeed. Where's the source for Trump's alleged arrest at a KKK rally? That's an outrageous claim that could be taken as libelous, as could much of what is written in this article. Wikipedia clearly has a heavily left wing bias, as shown by their article on Antifa which lavishes praise on the hate group and doesn't have a bad thing to say about it. 2A00:23C5:61B2:DE01:E51E:E2A1:4846:EE58 (talk) 13:59, 5 June 2022 (UTC)

You mean this source clearly provided in the article? --ZimZalaBim ^talk 17:03, 9 July 2022 (UTC)

The Southern Poverty Law Center has not characterized Antifa as a hate group. In the absence of reliable sources, what you type is libel. Dimadick (talk) 08:32, 6 June 2022 (UTC)

When one writes about a crime family, it's not "libelous" to describe their crimes. Carlstak (talk) 21:20, 9 July 2022 (UTC)

Nor is it libelous to criticise a terrorist hate group that is wrongly not recognised as one by a biased organisation. You're also committing thought crime by the standards of Antifa as the organisation's official policy is that they do not exist. --The Moderationater (talk) 15:59, 12 July 2022 (UTC)

RfC: The Physical appearance section

This article contains a section titled Physical appearance. It seems to not be encyclopedic, and normally I feel like deleting this would be the valid course of action, but considering the amount of sources added to the entire section, maybe a fragment could be kept and moved somewhere else. I am not really sure how to deal with cases like these, and so I opened the RfC to see if any part of the section is salvageable. RPI2026F1 (talk) 15:40, 17 November 2022 (UTC)

Some of the details could be folded into personal life, but I agree the section should be removed. Nemov (talk) 17:05, 17 November 2022 (UTC)

This was my sentiment, but I was wondering what exactly should be folded. RPI2026F1 (talk) 17:06, 17 November 2022 (UTC)

I've condensed it with the Personal Life section; also moved the same to lower in the article, as is standard format for most biographies, per MOS:SNO, "The usual practice is to order sections based on the precedent of similar articles." --Jayron32 17:13, 17 November 2022 (UTC)