Talk:Francis Ngannou

GA class

https://ores.wmflabs.org/v2/scores/enwiki/wp10/814825068 -- Marthadandridge (talk) 23:55, 11 December 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 6 July 2019

change height from 6ft 4 to 6ft 5, Francis confirmed multiple times he is 6 ft 5 SportsKeeper (talk) 21:56, 6 July 2019 (UTC)

SportsKeeper Greetings. Please note mma fighter infobox info is as per Sherdog.com which is 6'4"- see [1] based on Wikipedia WP:MMA guidelines. CASSIOPEIA^(talk) 12:09, 7 July 2019 (UTC)

Ngannou's punching power recorded by UFC

Hi @Bender235 and Retrofan781: Good day. Understand both of you are in disagreement of the unit of measurement and have been reverted each other edits for this matter. Kindly discussion this matter in this talk page and hold off the revert, avoid WP:edit warring, until a agreeable resolution is taking place. Thank you. Cheers and thank you. CASSIOPEIA^(talk) 04:53, 17 July 2019 (UTC)

I will hold off the reverting for the moment, but I still disagree with the inclusion. I'm not saying punching power measurements aren't noteworthy if done properly. For instance, there's a study from The BMJ that measured Frank Bruno's punching force, but it did so in proper units like Newton. However, nobody seems to know what these "129,161 units" of the UFC measurement represent, or how they compare to measurements from other fighters in boxing, MMA, and elsewhere. So what exactly is the informational value? The WP:ONUS is on Retrofan781 to explain how this punching record measured in arbitrary "units" is informative to the reader; not to mention why it should deserve a prominent spot in the article lede. --bender235 (talk) 13:03, 17 July 2019 (UTC)

@Bender235 In the future, please use the "@" symbol or {{Reply to}} template if you're trying to notify me. Going back to your comment, I'm not sure what you mean by "proper" units. If you are referring to SI units (International System of Units), can you point me to the Wikipedia policy or guideline that says only SI units are allowed in articles? Even in SI units, there are base units, and derived units which are created/modified "as the technology of measurement progresses and the precision of measurements improves" (source). Plus even the reddit link you posted says the unit in question is derived from the calorie measurement (energy) and foot-pounds/s (power) which can both be easily be converted to their SI counterparts. So I don't get the reasoning behind your argument. Also, at first you said punching power should be expressed in PSI (not N/m² or pascal) which fyi is a unit of pressure or stress, and now after citing a 1985 study you are saying it should be expressed as Newton (N). Well according to this 2015 study "a universal method of assessing striking impact does not exist" and it explains in detail why that is because of the different variables involved. So clearly the idea of there being a "proper" unit to assess striking power holds little to no merit in the field of applied sciences. Also, since when did official UFC measurements/ratings need to be 100% free of observational error, measurement uncertainty and subjectivity (see Sports rating systems). By that rationale, everything from official UFC rankings mentioned in article ledes to fighter height, reach, age (hey why not ask for their official birth certificates too while we're at it?), judges' decisions, etc should all be excluded from articles since you refuse to take UFC's word for it, even if backed up by reliable sources like Sherdog and ESPN? The fact that you even question the weight measurements from live, publicly broadcast UFC weigh-ins and misuse terms like false precision suggests that you are just arguing for the sake of arguing. --Retrofan781 (talk) 07:12, 19 July 2019 (UTC)

@Retrofan781: You're missing the point. I wasn't raising the issue of "observational error, measurement uncertainty and subjectivity" – all things that could occur and are perfectly fine. I was raising the issue of using undefined "units"; not just non-SI units (which, too, would be fine), but completely undefined and thus completely meaningless units. As of right now, the article contains a statement that has zero informational content. Contrary to what you write, I was not demanding a specific unit; just any unit (whether it is of pressure, energy, or acceleration) that has a clear definition (SI or non-SI). And this has nothing to do with "taking the UFC's word for it," as I am not question the reliability of the source. I'm questioning the information itself. (And by the way, the study you cited claiming no universally accepted method exists refers to measuring the head trauma induced by a punch, not the punch itself.) As for the weight measurements: giving weights (in our infobox) up to a tenth of a pound is precisely false precision. I simply wanted to go with the rounded one given on Ngannou's UFC profile. --bender235 (talk) 13:36, 19 July 2019 (UTC)

@Bender235 If you had actually bothered to read the note I posted four days ago in response to you, you would have already found the answers to these questions there. As I've told you before its a derived/compound unit based on the non-SI units of power (foot-pounds/s) and energy (calorie). Even the reddit link you posted earlier had established this using regression analysis with 97% accuracy using just 21 data points. So your claim that this unit is "meaningless" and has "zero informational content" is patently false. Likewise, if you had bothered to read the peer-reviewed study I posted in my previous reply, you wouldn't have brushed it off with yet another false claim of yours: "the study you cited claiming no universally accepted method exists refers to measuring the head trauma induced by a punch, not the punch itself." Actually, it refers to measuring the punching force (as shown in Figure 6 on page 27), which BTW was the whole point of the study that you clearly seemed to have missed or ignored. Ironically though, even the force unit listed in figure 6 is derived from the same unit that you keep questioning the validity of, despite the fact that per the same study its been validated by scientists at the Center for Sport Performance (California State University), the Exercise Neuromechanics Laboratory (University of Memphis) and the International Journal of Kinesiology and Sports Science, which is a peer-reviewed scholarly journal (see WP:BESTSOURCES). Last but not least, how is it "precisely false precision" to record weights down to a tenth of a pound? Are you suggesting UFC weigh-in scales can't accurately measure down to tenths of a lb? Since when? --Retrofan781 (talk) 19:16, 20 July 2019 (UTC)

Let me start with the latter: it is false precision because Ngannou's weight, just like any other person's alive, fluctuates at least by a pound every day. If he had lunch at couple of hours after the weigh-in, the overprecise number down to a tenth of a pound would be wrong. It would convey precision that is actually unfounded, i.e. exactly what "false precision" means.

@Bender235 Then I'm afraid you have a gross misunderstanding of false precision. False precision has nothing to do with whether the weight of a person fluctuates over days or weeks. A weighing scale is measures the instantaneous weight just like a speedometer measures the instantaneous speed of a moving vehicle. Whether the weight of the object being measured fluctuates over long periods of time is irrelevant to the precision of the measurement. I have no clue where you came up with this idea. I suggest you read carefully the article you yourself originally linked to. False precision is when you state or assume that the result of a calculation has a greater precision than the precision of the individual measurements used in that calculation. So lets say you wanted to calculate your average weight over the course of this week. Then your mean value can't have a higher accuracy than the actual measurements themselves. If it did that would be false precision. --Retrofan781 (talk) 11:22, 30 July 2019 (UTC)

As for the note that supposedly answers my questions: I've seen it before, and it is nothing but marketing hogwash. It has zero information about how convert this mysterious new unit into any other known units of measurement, SI or non-SI. And to put a cherry on top, it contradicts itself: "it is my conclusion that an impact in the Fighting Arts is too complex to be expressed as a single unit, [...]" so I develop a new single unit, and claim it solves all the problems. If you believe this marketing pamphlet passes WP:RS, you got another think coming. --bender235 (talk) 19:46, 20 July 2019 (UTC)

@Bender235 See, this is exactly what I meant when I said you're simply arguing for the sake of arguing. I have already debunked your unsubstantiated assertions ("zero information", "marketing hogwash") in my above replies yet you continue to repeat these proven lies as facts (see Denialism and Intellectual honesty). How is it "zero information" or "marketing hogwash" when peer-reviewed studies (sources: 1, 2) have proven otherwise? By your flawed rationale, one can nitpick anything published by the UFC including fighter rankings, age, height, as you have done already with fighter weights in infoboxes. I have already explained to you above there is subjectivity in every sports rating system, a point that you already conceded above, so what exactly are you complaining about with that cherry-picked and clearly fabricated statement on your part ("so I develop a new single unit, and claim it solves all the problems")? You literally just made that up. Also how is it a "contradiction" when its already been proven that there is no such thing as a universally accepted "single" unit to measure striking impact power (source) which can be measured in a reliable, repeatable and reproducible manner (source)? Yet you continue to falsely suggest there is. Also its interesting that you keep forcing me to repeat myself because you keep ignoring the crux of my response (notice how started off with "let me start with the latter" then conveniently ignored the crux of my reply as you did with the peer-reviewed study I cited before). You also clearly don't have the good faith to notify me after you post your replies (even after I specifically asked you to and show you how to). Instead you improperly requested a third opinion after you conveniently left me out of the loop. Furthermore, you still haven't answered what wikipedia policy or guideline makes this particular content ineligible for inclusion? Your constant misrepresentation of facts, turning a blind eye to peer-reviewed scientific evidence, refusal to notify me upon posting replies/invoking Third Opinion (see WP:DISCUSSFAIL)), and repeated edit-warring is evidence that you are not interested in listening to reason (see WP:ICANTHEARYOU)). --Retrofan781 (talk) 11:22, 30 July 2019 (UTC)

@Bender235 and Retrofan781:, Greetings. As per Reftronfan781 request advice on my talk page for I will respond here to keep the discussion in one page. on the issue above. Understand both you are deeply interested in the article especially on "the unit measurement" topic.

1. I have reverted Bender235 edit, as the discussion has yet reach a consensus agreement on whether the info should be included or remove from the article. Please wait until such time before action.
2. Retronfan 781, Do note even if the info would be included, it should not be in the article WP:Lead (Introduction) section, but on other section in the body text.
3. As a courtesy, please give ping all parties involved when a new comment is made so they could received a notification and respond accordingly.
4. Seeking third opinion request is a reasonable request.
5. The point made by Bender235 is not about whether the sources are independent and reliable but about "proper units" that what is being measured.
6. Do continuous to keep cool and be civil and allow the discussion go on for another week. If both of you and with the input of the third parties involvement yield no consensus agreement then you could bring the issue for admins intervention and state your case at Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard.

Thank you. CASSIOPEIA^(talk) 13:19, 30 July 2019 (UTC)

@Bender235 and Retrofan781:, More notes, info which could be supported by independent, reliable source does not mean inclusion. I include @Mark viking:, who is a scientist in physics and computation, and hope he has free time to help on the "unit of measurement" issue above. Thanks in advance Mike. Cheers. CASSIOPEIA^(talk) 04:15, 31 July 2019 (UTC)

@Bender235 and Retrofan781: I reverted Retrofan781 for now no info about the punching power is in the article. Pls see below 2 third opinions and discuss accordingly. If an agreement could not be reach after a week then pls bring it to Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard. thank you. CASSIOPEIA^(talk)

Response to third opinion request:

The record doesn't belong here. It isn't clear exactly what it is meant to be a record of. The machine in question is certainly measuring something, maybe measuring something interesting, and possibly measuring it in a reliable way. But given that we don't know what it is measuring, or what the thing it is measuring tells us about Ngannou's punches when he's punching something other than the machine, and nobody else with a sports medicine or human kinetics lab can measure the mysterious "units" short of just buying the machine, we really are in the realm of snake oil. The text over at the Strike Research link definitely does not inspire confidence. I can see that this kind of thing is of interest to enthusiasts, and seems urgent and notable; but it is mostly marketing, hype, noise. A testimonial, direct from the Strike Research page: "StrikeMate is a really good training aid with an element of competitive fun." And maybe a genuinely useful training aid. But probably (for now) lacking the kind of ubiquity or transparency that would make getting a high score on it headline news. And I'd say "high score" is appropriate. The sources on offer won't even support mentioning it in a much more careful, qualified way near the bottom of the article. " Regulov (talk) 12:06, 27 July 2019 (UTC)

• Response to CASSIOPEIA's request for me to take a look. Here are my two cents. In looking over the primary sources cited from Strike Research, the makers of the PowerKube that measures a punch and calculates the strength of a punch in 'units" or perhaps "franklins", it seems clear they are claiming that the measurement is some kind of derived measure based on power and kinetic energy. But the exact formula for the derived measure is unclear. Without that it is difficult to compare the PowerKube results with other traditional measures used in sports physiology. That is not necessarily disqualifying, however. If the PowerKube assay is a widely accepted measure of punching strength within the martial arts community, then the relative numbers for different subjects in that community are informative within that community. So the question for the subject matter experts is: is the PowerKube assay widely accepted as a measure of punching strength? If so, then the record result is informative and seems worthy of inclusion. But if the PowerKube is just one assay of many in the martial arts field and not considered a common or standard way to measure punch strength, then even as a measure of relative strength it fails, because few subjects have been tested with it. --{{u|Mark viking}} {Talk} 05:55, 31 July 2019 (UTC)

I didn't know this had been discussed when I moved it out of the lead into the Championships and accomplishments section. It was put back today. Unless someone can show that the PowerKube measurements are widely recognized then it might not even belong in the accomplishments section. I think it's clear that it doesn't belong in the lead unless someone can show that it's been widley reported. Sportskeeda doesn't cut it.--Killashaw (talk) 20:56, 8 October 2022 (UTC)

To add to article

To add to this article: Ngannou's net worth. 173.88.246.138 (talk) 06:15, 28 March 2021 (UTC)

Personal Life - Languages

GrentSol (talk) 03:51, 2 April 2021 (UTC) The statement "He learned English after joining the UFC.[66]" is not supported by the source referenced. The article discusses his working to improve his English, but not that he "learned" it after joining the UFC or when he started speaking/learning it. Both English and French are official languages in Camaroon.

Actarus2805 (talk) 16:06, 8 January 2022 (UTC) No, it's true. He's a Bamileke Cameroonian and, therefore, he natively speaks French (as 80% of the population).

French nationality

Him being French is mentioned here a few times, does anyone have any proof of him acquiring French citizenship? Nswix (talk) 23:11, 24 January 2022 (UTC)

is mentioned in different articles online:

https://themaclife.com/sports/mma/french-minister-sport-clears-path-legalise-mma-beginning-2020/

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2022/jan/23/ufc-270-francis-ngannou-ciryl-gane-fight Zw0n1m1r (talk) 11:51, 31 July 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 16 January 2023

you spelt reigning wrong lol 203.194.55.185 (talk) 11:49, 16 January 2023 (UTC)

 Done ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 13:22, 16 January 2023 (UTC)

What is it with the constant changing of from "stripped" to "vacated"

I think it should be stripped since vacated means that the person willingly gave up the title, stripped means the promotion took away the title. In this case, the UFC took away the title and Ngannou didn't vacate it. HeinzMaster (talk) 17:53, 17 January 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 29 October 2023

Robbed of beating fury with corruption in the world boxing organisation Graham1987uk (talk) 02:10, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Cannolis (talk) 03:39, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 29 October 2023 (2)

Robbery if ever I seen one clear winner but lost to the world boxing organisation Graham1987uk (talk) 02:13, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Tollens (talk) 04:00, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

Nationality in lead

MOS:NATIONALITY is pretty clear, only list nationalities where subject established themselves. Francis started his career in France, but has never been known as French, and doesn't even live there anymore. Personally, I'm not even convinced of the reliability of sources that say he's a French citizen, as he's never mentioned it. They just assume he lived there long enough to qualify, so he must be a citizen.

Nswix (talk) 22:17, 14 December 2023 (UTC)

He was living in Paris, training at MMA Factory when he began MMA and became notable. Now that he trains at Xtreme Couture it looks like he spends most his time in Vegas.

We can discuss the reliability of "The Mac Life", but there are other sources that say he is French. Why do you think they made an assumption about living there long enough?--Killashaw (talk) 20:43, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

Update to final sentence in the top paragraph

The last sentence of the first paragraph that states "Only five of his thirteen UFC fights eclipsed the two-minute mark in the first round, with the remaining eight ending in an Ngannou finish." just needs to be updated. He had 14 total fights in the UFC, 6 went past the 2-minute mark & the other 8 ended in a finish for Ngannou. SeanGrizzy (talk) 18:19, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

I fixed it.--Killashaw (talk) 19:43, 7 March 2024 (UTC)