Talk:Fire whirl

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Headline text[edit]

I believe I have a picture for this article, but i dont know how to add it! well the link to the picture is at " http://www.lejeune.usmc.mil/emd/FORESTRY/FACTS.2.jpg "

Terms[edit]

A few handy references for terms are:

Evolauxia 01:40, 28 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Propose moving page from "fire whirl" to "fire tornado"[edit]

Searching on Google...

  • "fire whirl" = 78,000 results
  • "firenado" = 302,000 results
  • "fire devil" = 337,000 results
  • "fire tornado" = 729,000 results

Searching on Google Scholar...

  • "fire whirl" = 569 results
  • "firenado" = 6 results
  • "fire devil" = 205 results
  • "fire tornado" = 1,030 results

It seems that "fire tornado" is the most popular term both in general and in scholarly usage. "fire whirl" is relatively common in scholarly usage, but not at all popular in general usage. Therefore, moving the page to "fire tornado" seems the obvious choice.

One thing I'm not sure about, though: are "fire whirl" and "fire tornado" really synonymous, or is "fire tornado" a term for a particularly large fire whirl? An earlier version of this page suggests that ("the first confirmed fire tornado, as opposed to fire whirl, happened in the 2003 Canberra bushfires with confirmation in 2012") Esn (talk) 07:27, 30 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed, the term has definitely moved that way over time, and so has the science of how/when it happens. And the earlier Canberra event should be restored... very definitive. See below video link....

This 2018 Mercury News Carr fire story, unsure what term to use, mixes in all of them: “fire vortex” and “fire whirls”, then reports that 1926 “fire tornadoes” formed “thousands of whirls”. No doubt different causations enter the picture depending on the size of the blaze. Twang (talk) 02:38, 28 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

This article asserts that 'fire whirl' and 'fire tornado' are separate and distinct phenomena, and are not to be confused. But Wikipedia is currently redirecting 'fire tornado' to this article. Something needs to be fixed here. Either they terms are actually synonymous and the article needs to be changed, or they are different, and the redirect needs to be replaced by a separate article. ----Cowlinator (talk) 18:44, 19 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Also, this Science news article on the Carr fire strongly asserts that they are separate phenomena, and that there had only been 2 documented instances of a 'fire tornado' in all of history up until November 2018. ----Cowlinator (talk) 18:50, 19 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Excellent 2013 'fire tornado' video[edit]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rqYEeivt8Eg

A 2003 fire in Canberra caused a 'fire tornado' with a clear-cut tornado-like groundpath across a broad area. Good graphical descriptions of principles. Towards the end, images of pyrocumulonimbus cloud.

How does a bushfire turn into a fire tornado? Researchers now have proof that a devastating fire tornado carved a path of destruction during the Canberra bushfires of 2003.

Twang (talk) 02:13, 28 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]

External links modified[edit]

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California 2018[edit]

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-redding-tornado-destruction-20180802-story.html#nws=mcnewsletter

59.102.68.214 (talk) 13:26, 4 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Lede[edit]

Is the lede statement "in many cases erroneously" backed up by a source? It is probably true, however, most of the news articles and reports I came across prefer Fire Tornado (even it is not a real tornado). Maybe this could be reflected in the lede better, ie. However, meteorological defined Fire whirl is more accurate than Fire tornado, because ... ?? prokaryotes (talk) 13:01, 14 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Jingellic December 2019[edit]

Event at Jingellic on 30th December 2019 might be worth including after further documentation;[1][2] flipping a fire truck and at least one subsequent death contribute to notability. Klbrain (talk) 03:29, 31 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

It's hard to tell, but it appears from the articles as if the Jingellic event was cause by the plume collapsing, rather than rotating. More like a downburst—very dangerous, but not tornadic activity. https://www.plumasnews.com/the-smoke-column-collapse-what-is-it-and-why-is-it-such-a-concern/
Gdoehne (talk) Gdoehne (talk) 17:54, 26 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ "Three missing, feared dead in NSW fires - 9News". www.9news.com.au. 9 News. 31 December 2019. Retrieved 31 December 2019.
  2. ^ Nguyen, Kevin (31 December 2019). "Young father-to-be dies as fire tornado flips truck onto its back". ABC News. Retrieved 31 December 2019.

Splitting fire whirl and fire tornado?[edit]

I'd like to maybe restart the discussion about separating fire whirls (the small, common vortices equivalent to dust devils) and fire tornadoes (like the Canberra, Carr Fire, Creek Fire, and Loyalton Fire events), which seem atmospherically distinct in behavior and magnitude. There's enough info and confusion about each to warrant it, I think. What are people's thoughts?

Gdoehne (talk) 17:58, 26 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I completely agree. The article focuses on fire whirls for the majority of it with random pyrocumulus-based tornadoes thrown in for seemingly no reason, especially considering the difference between the two was covered early in the article. Weatherkidnh (talk) 21:34, 8 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Sections about pyrocumulonimbus tornadoes instead of fire whirls[edit]

Should these portions of the article be removed/made into a new article? These are all relating to tornadoes formed from pyrocumulonimbus clouds instead of being surface-based vortices.

"Fire whirls can be common within the vicinity of a plume during a volcanic eruption. These range from small to large and form from a variety of mechanisms, including those akin to typical fire whirl processes, but can result in Cumulonimbus flammagenitus (cloud) spawning landspouts and waterspouts or even to develop mesocyclone-like updraft rotation of the plume itself and/or of the cumulonimbi, which can spawn tornadoes similar to those in supercells. Pyrocumulonimbi generated by large fires on rare occasion also develops in a similar way."

"The meteorological community views some fire-induced phenomena as atmospheric phenomena. Using the pyro- prefix, fire-induced clouds are called pyrocumulus and pyrocumulonimbus. Larger fire vortices are similarly being viewed. Based on vortex scale, the classification terms of pyronado, "pyrotornado", and "pyromesocyclone" have been proposed."

"During the 2003 Canberra bushfires in Canberra, Australia, a violent fire whirl was documented. It was calculated to have horizontal winds of 160 mph (260 km/h) and vertical air speed of 93 mph (150 km/h), causing the flashover of 300 acres (120 ha) in 0.04 seconds.[26] It was the first known fire whirl in Australia to have EF3 wind speeds on the Enhanced Fujita scale.[27]"

"On August 15, 2020, for the first time in its history, the U.S. National Weather Service issued a tornado warning for a pyrocumulonimbus created by a wildfire near Loyalton, California capable of producing a fire tornado.[30][31][32]"


Weatherkidnh (talk) 21:46, 8 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Let's spin this discussion up again. I want to formally propose a new article (fire tornado, pyro-tornado, etc.) to distinguish between the two phenomena—it seems like we're at the point where that has been done scientifically and all we've done in this article is recreate the confusion in the media. The small-scale vortices born from fire processes are fire whirls, the larger-scale vortices born from a less-understood combination of fire and cloud processes are fire tornadoes. I think it might be a little confusing to readers to be redirected to this page when searching 'fire tornado' but then see this w.r.t "fire tornado": "...but these terms usually refer to a separate phenomenon". Penitentes (talk) 19:12, 20 December 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I second that motion to create a new article. It's badly needed at this point. Weatherkidnh (talk) 20:11, 14 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
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