Talk:Family in the United States/Archive 1

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Introductory To-Do List I want to suggest four areas to write about for our project, so that one area can be taken by each member of our group. There will be subheadings under each of the big topics depending on how much research we are able to find. A rough idea will be:

Different Types of Families -extended, nuclear, etc

Family Roles -economic -emotional

Contemporary Views of the Family -same-sex couples -single parent households

Controversy within American Families -adoption -incest -etc

Since our group is behind, begin by commenting on which area you want to focus on and then start accumulating as much information as possible. I want to get some sort of draft going by Thursday the 16th. --Red walnut (talk) 23:27, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

I'll post a more detailed review once you guys have more content, around late Thursday or Friday. I'll be expecting to see the content then, of course. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 03:09, 15 July 2009 (UTC)
Quick comment: you need hyperlinks (see WP:LINKING). --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 04:01, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

July 20

A good rough draft is up [good research Tony] but we need to work on our formatting and wiki-structure. Here is the criteria for good article nomination: [1]. --Red walnut (talk) 06:51, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

It's high time to nominate your article for GA. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 16:41, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

July 24

Finally figured out how to nominate for Good Article status and have done so. Hope to get some constructive comments soon!!--Red walnut (talk) 19:42, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

Let me start by suggesting that you try to address the issues that have been tagged (missing citations, reference formating). Certainly any GA reviewer will ask you to do so. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 20:06, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:American family structure/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Hey everybody. I'll be reviewing this article for possible GA status. I'll start by asking you to remove the construction tag from the top of the article, as articles with this tag are automatically not GAs (due to inherent instability). Cheers, Nikkimaria (talk) 15:05, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

The article is well-done, but it needs some further editing to achieve GA status. I'm putting it on hold to allow contributors time to address my concerns. Cheers, Nikkimaria (talk) 16:17, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

Writing and formatting

  • The lead needs to be expanded to match the scope of the article. As is, it is too short and does not adequately overview the topic. See WP:Lead for guidelines. -Have edited, please review and see if the Lead is getting closer to GA criteria.--Red walnut (talk) 22:19, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
That's much better in terms of length, but it now reads like the introduction or abstract of a research paper. You should try to maintain an encyclopedic tone. Also, it could use an internal link or two.
 Doing... - close, but not quite. The opening sentence is, IMO, slightly misleading, as that is not a standard definition of "family", and your article gives multiple scenarios that could be considered families.
Fiddled around some more with it, and included that line you liked from the Nuclear section (minus the white stuff..) as well as removed 'we' to make it sound more encyclopedic. Thoughts? --Red walnut (talk) 21:38, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
Since you don't discuss abuse in the article, that should be removed from the lead. You could discuss different "alternative family forms" briefly instead.
I keep working on trying to make it concise yet informative, and hopefully it is close to being complete. : Done ?
  • Editors are generally advised to avoid using the topic of the article in section headings unless absolutely necessary. I would suggest renaming "Contemporary views of the American family" and "Controversy within the American family" to "Contemporary views" and "Controversy" respectively.-Have made changes to the headings as requested.--Red walnut (talk) 22:19, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
Good, but headings should have only the first word capitalized (unless they're proper nouns).  Done
"Children structures of interest" is kind of an awkward title - any other choices?
I have labeled the section as "Children" for simplicity's sake until I think of something more explanatory, or if other sections about children are added to the current two areas. --Red walnut (talk) 20:53, 29 July 2009 (UTC): Done
  • You have a lot of small subsections with very little content. I would suggest either merging some of these together or expanding them.
 Done "summary style"--Red walnut (talk) 21:09, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
  • "A nuclear family consist of" - grammar -made change--Red walnut (talk) 22:19, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
 Done
  • "The nuclear family is vastly evolving into different family structures" - awkward wording, edit for flow and clarity
 Done
  • "as marry couples divorce" - "married" or "many" here?
 Done
  • "couples divorce due to a rising trend in divorce rates" - couples divorce because of rising divorce rates? Reword for meaning
 Done
  • "single-parnet households" -made change--Red walnut (talk) 22:19, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
 Done
  • Need a period at the end of the paragraph about single parents- made change--Red walnut (talk) 22:19, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
 Done
  • "Biological parents can be either the mother or father, or termed Guardians for adopted children" - awkward and unclear, please revise
 Done
  • Cohabitation is not a proper noun
 Done
  • Why are housewives, breadwinners + SAHDs subsections of partners? Why not parents, or a section of their own?
 Done
  • "This number increased by at least another 594,000 if we include same sex partners" - need verb tense agreement
 Done
  • "Cohabitation lifestyle" -> "The cohabitation lifestyle" or "cohabitation as a lifestyle"
 Done
  • Avoid contractions in encyclopedic articles
 Doing... - you missed at least one ("aren't")
All contractions should be removed.--Red walnut (talk) 20:53, 29 July 2009 (UTC) : Done
  • Some of your terms (long term, stay at home) should have hyphens. See WP:HYPHEN for guidelines
 Done
  • Some of your quotes would be better summarized and cited instead of directly quoted
Working on paraphrasing the old quotes instead of just dropping the quotation marks. --Red walnut (talk) 21:38, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
Have reviewed and should be better. : Done
  • "New York Times" should be italicizes
 Done
  • SAHDs are the male equivalent to housewives, not opposite
 Done
  • "Firstborn children are able to live up to their parents' high expectations, they reap precious rewards" - do you mean if they are able?
 Done
  • Why is there a section on firstborn and not lastborn?
 Done
  • "Firstborn" and "Only child families" need serious editing for grammar and encyclopedic tone
 Doing... - "Only child" still needs some work
: Done?
  • "Its particularly hard" -> "It is particularly hard"
 Done
  • The "Controversy" section has many grammatical issues and needs copyediting (especially the first two subsections)
 Done
  • "Media" needs major copyediting
 Doing... - good start, but still needs some work (look especially at capitalization)
What exactly is copyediting? --Red walnut (talk) 21:38, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
Copyediting means checking the section for spelling and grammar, and making changes as appropriate. The section is better now, but could still use some minor copyediting. Nikkimaria (talk) 01:34, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
Reworded, fixed punctuation and commas, hopefully it is solid. : Done
Good, but could use a few more.
Added it to Cohabitation in the United States and Adoption in the United States as well --Red walnut (talk) 20:53, 29 July 2009 (UTC) : Done
  • A few more things I've noticed: first, why is the word "white" included in the nuclear family section?
Unfortunately, I got caught up in paraphrasing research from the '80s that I let that slip in there. I have removed it now. --Red walnut (talk) 20:53, 29 July 2009 (UTC) : Done
  • Once "white" is dealt with, I would double that sentence in the lead somewhere : Done
  • "adopting families" -> "adoptive families"
Looks like Tony took care of this issue : Done
  • Make sure that citations are placed as follows: punctuation, citation, space, next word : Done
  • "Less" and "fewer" should not be used interchangeably : Done
  • "We" should be avoided in encyclopedic articles
removed all 'we' --Red walnut (talk) 21:38, 29 July 2009 (UTC) : Done

Accuracy and verifiability

  • All "citations needed" tags must be addressed before the article can be GA
 Done
  • Besides those tagged, citations also needed for:
  • Single parent homes are increasing more and more as marry couples divorce due to a rising trend in divorce rates: Done
  • The age group for parents ranges from teenage parents to older parents, with teenage pregnancies fluctuating yearly: Done
  • Cohabitation lifestyle is becoming more popular in today's generation: Done
  • Stay at home dads aren't as popular in American society: Done
  • Firstborn children are able to live up to their parents' high expectations, they reap precious rewards: Done
  • They often become very skilled at knowing what their parents (and later, teachers and bosses) want them to do, and doing it.To protect against this disaster, many firstborn children set even higher standards for themselves than their parents do, and, as a result, are rarely satisfied. Any success they achieve is not enough: Done
  • Children that come from only child families have the stereotype of being spoiled, self-center, and selfish. However, only children seem to do excel higher in school and careers then children with siblings: Done
  • The adoption requirements and policies for adopting children has made harder for foster families and potential adoptive families to adopt kids. Before a family can adopt they must go through state, county, and agencies criteria. Adoption agencies criteria express the importance of age of the adoptive parents, as well as the agency's desire for married couples over single adopters. Adoptive parents also have to deal with criteria that is placed by the birth parents of the adopting child: Done
  • The male social role is designed to reward masculine men, while the female social role offers its relative advantages only to feminine women- just removed this part entirely : Done
  • During the era of the baby boomers, families grew popular in society espicially on television: Done
  • The perfect nuclear families that are shown on tv has changed as the years past and have become more realistic with showing single parent families, divorced families, and people that are older and single: Done
  • In "Adopted children", the quote provded doesn't really support the assertation that it is harder for children to be adopted from foster care: Done
  • About.com is not the greatest source - if you can find another one, use it: Done
  • The "bare URL" tag needs to be addressed. See WP:Cite#How
 Done - but also needs to be fixed in external links
  • The stereotypes in "Children" are largely original research- found some more evidence that should hopefully support the claims better : Done
  • Additional tags regarding citations have been added to the article - please address
 Done - but remove the tag : Done
  • I would recommend against placing one citation at the end of the paragraph - other editors may introduce material, making it unclear what the citation applies to. Especially where there are statistics, cite each sentence (or, if necessary, each part thereof) individually.
Could you please provide an example section? We are still new to wiki :] --Red walnut (talk) 21:38, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
Example section:
  • Living as unwed partners is also known as cohabitation. The number of heterosexual unmarried couples in the United States has increased tenfold, from about 0.4 million in 1960 to more than five million in 2005. This number would increase by at least another 594,000 if same sex partners were included. Of all unmarried couples, about 1 in 9 (11 percent of all unmarried-partner households) are gay men or lesbians. The cohabitation lifestyle is becoming more popular in today's generation.[11]
Here, I assume that your ref 11 covers the entire italicized section. But since the sentences are not cited individually, an addition of further material complicates matters. Observe:
  • Living as unwed partners is also known as cohabitation. The number of heterosexual unmarried couples in the United States has increased tenfold, from about 0.4 million in 1960 to more than five million in 2005.[citation needed] This number would increase by at least another 594,000 if same sex partners were included.[citation needed] Cohabitors represent about x% of American families.[my ref] Of all unmarried couples, about 1 in 9 (11 percent of all unmarried-partner households) are gay men or lesbians.[citation needed] Some suggest that homosexual cohabitors are better parents than heterosexuals.[my ref] More homosexual than heterosexual couples choose cohabitation.[my ref] The cohabitation lifestyle is becoming more popular in today's generation.[11]
Now, the italicized section is referenced, but those with fact tags aren't. This problem is solved by citing sentences like these individually as much as possible, unless it's obvious somehow that they can never be separated.
Got it! I looked through each paragraph and replicated references for anything that could get messed up if a new contributor added information. Should be complete, if not a bit redundant! : Done
See above, have changed/paraphrased several sentences to avoid this : Done
  • Ref 1 needs to be expanded : Done
  • Refs 4 and 27 are the same, refs 17 and 20 are the same
The ref #s have changed as we have been working, could we get an update on what they currently are now?
1+3, 4+5, 6+37, 12+13+14+16, 22+26, 24+25, 32+33+34 are the same now
Will you please explain why the references cannot be duplicates if they came from the same source? For example, do you just want more specific information such as exact page number? --Red walnut (talk) 04:09, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
On the contrary, it's fine for references to be the same - however, in this case, they need to be cited slightly differently. A single ref can be cited: <ref>Ref, details</ref>. When the reference is duplicated in the text, however, the first instance is cited: <ref name="example">Ref, details</ref>, and thereafter as <ref name="example"/>. I assumed that since the article had some references in that format, you had added them - sorry, my fault. Hope this explains it. Nikkimaria (talk) 13:34, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

Broad

  • Some of those small subsections could be expanded : Done
  • "Media" does not mean just TV - families have been portrayed in other media, and it would be useful to discuss these: Done
  • There are other possible "controversy" subsections: child abuse, molestation, neglect, abandonment, etc
Due to the time constraints of our course, I do not think we are able at this time to add more sections within the GA timeframe. I definitely think those are areas that should be addressed and hopefully there will be more time (and contributors!) in the future to do so. --Red walnut (talk) 21:38, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

Neutrality

  • The "Children" section presents some stereotypes as fact, without citing a source : Done

Stability

  • As noted above, the "under construction" tag makes the article inherently unstable and needs to be removed : Done

Images

  • The image needs a caption -caption added today --Red walnut (talk) 22:23, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
 Done
  • The image has no licensing tag and its copyright status is uncertain -put the photo up for review due to the lack of copyright notice on the website it came from. --Red walnut (talk) 22:23, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
  • You could take the image to WP:IMAGEHELP for help in determining the necessary tag
Found a photo with a Creative Commons license so hopefully that should be good to go. : Done

July 25th

Thank you for all of your recommendations, Nikkimaria! Our group will be using this page to 'check off' what we fix according to your list. If you have any other suggestions as we progress please feel free to comment! --Red walnut (talk) 22:24, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

July 25

Will be posting responses and checking off what has been done.--Red walnut (talk) 22:16, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

Further suggestions

  • Please expand the lead to conform with guidelines at Wikipedia:Lead. The article should have an appropriate number of paragraphs as is shown on WP:LEAD, and should adequately summarize the article. : Done
  • Consider adding more links to the article; per Wikipedia:Manual of Style (links) and Wikipedia:Build the web, create links to relevant articles. There are sections, starting with the lead, that are in desperate need of links. : Done
  • Per WP:WIAFA, this article's table of contents (ToC) may be too long – consider shrinking it down by merging short sections or using a proper system of daughter pages as per Wikipedia:Summary style. : Done
  • Watch for redundancies that make the article too wordy instead of being crisp and concise. (You may wish to try Tony1's redundancy exercises.) : Done
    • Vague terms of size often are unnecessary and redundant - “some”, “a variety/number/majority of”, “several”, “a few”, “many”, “any”, and “all”. For example, “All pigs are pink, so we thought of a number of ways to turn them green.” : Done
  • Avoid contractions: aren't, if these are outside of quotations, they should be expanded. : Done

Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 23:43, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

Update 7/28

I think I accidentally overwrote the changes you made right before me Nikkimaria. I am not entirely sure though. I do apologize if I did and hope it wasn't too much!

Yes, I think you did. You could go through the edit history and pick out my changes - most of them were minor, but (I hope) they would be useful to you. Anyways, I've reviewed your changes and have posted my replies on the review (I ignored the stuff I fixed because I thought I had addressed it...). Take a look, let me know if you have any questions, and keep up the good work! Cheers, Nikkimaria (talk) 00:50, 29 July 2009 (UTC)
Hopefully we have addressed the majority of your concerns so far Nikkimaria. Really appreciate the help! --Red walnut (talk) 02:28, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

For future expansion, this article should have a comparison of families by ethnicity (white, Africian-American, Latino, Asian-American, Muslim-American, and so on). Race is a major factor differentiating families in the USA. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 19:06, 30 July 2009 (UTC)

Adoption section

Aberry17, please be sure to cite where you are getting your statistics/information and ensure that the paragraph flows together neatly with what already exists. I would leave you a message on your user talk page but you have not created one yet. --Red walnut (talk) 05:04, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

The adopted children section is very poorly worded and doesn't really convey what adoption means - perhaps some performance info/statistics relating to adopted children would be relevant here as with only children? And should there be a section about long-term fostering? Redcore4 (talk) 13:38, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

Same-sex parenting

Just came upon this page (which seems well-written) and this sentence raised my eyebrows: "Children with same-sex parents usually deal with discrimination by their peers and there is always the potential for gender confusion as they mature, but same-sex couples provide quality care just like their heterosexual counterparts." Probably the source does say this, but the claims still seem a bit unspecific. What exactly does "usually" mean here, and is "gender confusion" a real psychological term (for gender identity disorder)? With the current wikilink it seems to say that children of same-sex couples have a big possibility of becoming transsexuals, which is a somewhat outrageous claim to make. Since this is a controversial issue, it would be better to use hard numbers or such (such as statistics that show what percentage of children were harrassed due to their parents' sexual orientation compared with other children, if it is even necessary to mention that particular issue). IMHO some elaboration is needed here, or otherwise the sentence should be removed. --Epiq (talk) 20:09, 1 August 2009 (UTC)

Title

Has the title been discussed anywhere? I think family structure in the United States is more typical for Wikipedia. This would be more precise, as "American" can mean more than just the United States. Plus, "American family structure" could imply that it is about a specific form of family. Family structure in the United States covers all families in the U.S. Tuf-Kat (talk) 22:27, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

I agree. Moved from American family structure to Family structure in the United States Zodon (talk) 07:26, 17 April 2012 (UTC)

Only child

What does Leonardo da Vinci, Albert Einstein or Jean Paul Sartre have to do with "American family structure"? The fact that they were successful does not mean it is true for only children in general, and only children in American families in particular, since they weren't even American.Avman89 (talk) 02:09, 14 February 2011 (UTC)

Good point. I removed the sentence. It's even wrong because Albert Einstein was not an only child. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 19:42, 13 January 2012 (UTC)
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