Talk:Emmanuel Macron

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Splitting this huge article

I split this huge article, per Size Guidelines, and it has been reverted several times now by WikiCleanerMan with no logical explanation, except what boils down to I Don't Like It. (WCM also seems to think that article splits and mergers must be discussed before execution, contrary to actual Wikipedia policy.) I have been very active at the Article Mergers and Splits noticeboard since 2012, and am quite aware of what needs to happen to carry these actions out. His reverting of the split is bordering on disruptive.

There are numerous reasons why articles this size should be split, not the least of which is, for instance: it takes my computer 15–20 seconds to even load (my puter is only two years old), also the content I split out had already been moved to the Presidency of Emmanuel Macron article, where it belonged. I found a natural breaking point (his presidency) in this article while completing the merges of two other articles' content (that were small content forks/duplications) to this article. The content of those two articles was part of the text I then sent to the Presidency article. This was all per MoS guidelines. Right now there exists a huge Content Fork and duplication between that article and this one. Note also, before I was even done with cleanup after working on these merges and splits for almost seven hours, WCM jumped in and started reverting everything in the four articles involved, even though I had "in progress" banners on all them all.

If there are any reasonable objections to this split, please present your case here.— Preceding unsigned comment added by GenQuest (talk • contribs)

I agree that this page is being inappropriately updated with information that belongs at Presidency of Emmanuel Macron and not here. -- SashiRolls ^{🌿 · 🍥} 13:13, 30 July 2023 (UTC)

I wonder when there was a need to split this article after the merger discussion to create the presidency article. It was never requested when I started the merger discussion and this article was never up for debate when I started the discussion. Please stop splitting for the case of your own IDT when you clearly were making disruptive edits even after when the discussion on the former redirect was self-explanatory. Article size isn't even being presented as a reason to split the article. Take a look at other presidency articles which contain a lot of the same information on the main article about a president and their presidency article. --WikiCleanerMan (talk) 19:57, 30 July 2023 (UTC)

Au contraire. It's you who were being disruptive. Article size is exactly why I split the article. I've explained that to you twice now. Also, this split has nothing to do with the merge request. They're two separate issues. The mergers you requested happened to here, instead of directly into the Presidency (former redirect) article. That little bit of merged material from the two articles then went to the Presidency article when I split this article off to there. Your requested merge happened—I just added a step in between. That content is exactly where you wanted it to go.

But now, your revert of the split has created a huge wp:Content Fork with this article for absolutely no reason. If you have a policy-based reason why the Emmanuel Macron article split should not happen, please let us know what it is. We're all still waiting—with bated breath. GenQuest ^"scribble" 03:37, 2 August 2023 (UTC)

This article was never invovled until you made it so. Where did it say the main Macron article had to be merged with creating the Presidency article? You never read the discussion. It was the First and Second Presidencies' articles to be merged to create the separate Presidency article. Edit history doesn't lie. @Killuminator, Estar8806, Keivan.f, and 162 etc.:, did the merger discussion ever involve the main Macron article? --WikiCleanerMan (talk) 17:13, 2 August 2023 (UTC)

I don't recall the article on Macron's bio being brought up in either the original RM or the later merge discussion.

Nonetheless I think @GenQuest is right this article should probably be split. WP:AS advises to keep an article around 10,000 words or less, and this article is presently at 13,000 words. I've first off gone ahead and changed #President of France into a section of its own rather than a subsection of #Political career, there's no simply reason his presidency should not warrant a separate section. Perhaps the Presidency section could be trimmed down and some content moved to Presidency of Emmanuel Macron.

One of the simplest ways I can think of to shorten the article would be to separate the entire #Political positions section into a Political positions of Emmanuel Macron article and link that as a WP:HATNOTE in #Political career. estar8806 (talk) ★ 18:27, 2 August 2023 (UTC)

Both articles were already content forks of this article, and probably should have just been deleted at that point.. The way I did the merge (to here) corrected that problem by preserving what VERY LITTLE unique information was contained in those two articles. Then I split this article at a natural break point. By reverting this article only, and not the Presidency article also, you caused a Content Fork/Duplication. If you're going to revert one article, you have to revert both articles—you can't have it both ways. I will gladly revert the split for you at the Presidency article; it'll take two minutes, and then you guys can work out what you want in the presidency article. Let me know. GenQuest ^"scribble" 22:24, 2 August 2023 (UTC)

Don't touch either article. Leave it to someone else. --WikiCleanerMan (talk) 23:32, 2 August 2023 (UTC)

All due respect, WikiCleanerMan, but GenQuest is right. The article should be split, but beside that we have to avoid content forks. And quite frankly, this sounds quite a bit like trying to claim WP:OWNERSHIP. estar8806 (talk) ★ 23:50, 2 August 2023 (UTC)

I've added the "too long" template to the page to discourage people from dumping more long text here. Info related to the presidency goes on Presidency of Emmanuel Macron, biographical info goes here. The consensus in this section seems to be that this entry needs considerable paring down. -- SashiRolls ^{🌿 · 🍥} 12:40, 15 August 2023 (UTC)

This is a BLP (reminder)

I recently had to revert a contribution whose source did not mention Emmanuel Macron even once. It appears that this page is being used as a general chronicle on everything that the government does or that happens in France. I would encourage contributors to keep in mind that this is a biography, not a blow-by-blow chronicle of every bill the government passes into law. -- SashiRolls ^{🌿 · 🍥} 13:04, 30 July 2023 (UTC)

This has been added back in, this time with a new reference from January 2023 that does mention Macron and a July 2023 source that does not, both supposedly supporting the claim that on August 1, 2023 Macron did something. Again, (for the moment) this info belongs on the presidency page not on the BLP. -- SashiRolls ^{🌿 · 🍥} 14:18, 15 August 2023 (UTC)

As commander-in-chief, Macron, just like all French presidents before him, yields huge personal influence on military policy matters. He was the one proposing the multi-year military spending plan in January 2023, so why not mentioning it in terms of domestic affairs? Even if sources are not centered on Macron, it's still a Macron-sponsored/Macron-led policy, isn't it? Frenchpolit (talk) 14:31, 15 August 2023 (UTC)

Things he does as president, indeed, probably belong on the presidency article. I am a bit torn on this, but think it fits better over there. With the right source, it probably could also be contextualized there with the general rise in defense budgets across Europe, no? -- SashiRolls ^{🌿 · 🍥} 14:35, 15 August 2023 (UTC)

Yes, indeed, you're right and obviously it could be linked to the Russian invasion of Ukraine.

Unfortunately, there are little sources apart from those regarding the different readings of the bill in Parliament... Frenchpolit (talk) 14:48, 15 August 2023 (UTC)

BRD: removal of excessive detail

I am opening discussion on this addition, which I have removed on the grounds that it belongs instead on the Presidency of Emmanuel Macron entry. Why am I mistaken? -- SashiRolls ^{🌿 · 🍥} 13:06, 15 August 2023 (UTC)

Removal of excessive detail is welcomed, but I think that my contribution (which I shortened) on Macron's role in the June 2022 legislative election results was welcomed too. The 2022 parliamentary election was to be pivotal to Macron's 2nd term and his 'tarmac speech' on 14 June was a fateful one and a rare occurrence of a French President overtly campaigning in legislative elections. Therefore, mentioning the speech, and how it affected the campaign and subsequent results, seems sensible -and should not be reversed.

So, let's find common ground? Frenchpolit (talk) 13:20, 15 August 2023 (UTC)

The common ground that I see us as being likely to find is that the largely identical text you added to the sub-article can remain there, though it may need to be streamlined. Others may disagree, either in favor of duplicating the info here, or in terms of its suitability for either page. I personally think a shortened version would be good on the article focused on the Presidency. -- SashiRolls ^{🌿 · 🍥} 13:39, 15 August 2023 (UTC)

I'm basically ok with that, but I still think even a brief mention of his 14 June 2022 'tarmac speech' would be appropriate in the June 2022 legislative election sub-part given the role it is considered to have played in the final results. Frenchpolit (talk) 13:43, 15 August 2023 (UTC)

I'd be happy to see a one-sentence version! (sans trop de tiroirs :P) Also, with regard to this revert, I think you're both right and wrong. Since neither source mentions 10 times, adding that number (even if it's right, which knowing you a bit it probably is) is OR, and, as such, you should self-revert (the Le Monde article says it was the fifth use). However, you are right that neither article can be used to make a claim about the end of 2022 as they were published in October (FranceTVinfo) and November (Le Monde). -- SashiRolls ^{🌿 · 🍥} 13:56, 15 August 2023 (UTC)

Then, I'll try adding a one-sentence mention of his speech :).

And yes, it was used for a total of 10 times for both budgets but you're right about the sources so I will replace both sources by a comprehensive new source that mentions that it was used 10 times!

Thanks again for the feedback. Frenchpolit (talk) 14:09, 15 August 2023 (UTC)

Fast copyedit

Read the article and did a quick copyedit as I went. Parts of the article were machine-translated, and suffered from the historical present and the differences of opinion that French has with English about when to use "the". Nothing unusual, bottom line. The.what tags include a rationale as a parameter and should be self-explanatory. I don't have an opinion at the moment on the split, but I do think that there's some repetition that could stand to go. I did not attempt this on this pass, just hit some low-hanging copy-editing fruit. Elinruby (talk) 03:31, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

Political positions section

Since we're discussing size, the § Political positions section should be removed, and the few salvageable bits moved to the Presidency section. He's defined by what he did as president, not what he said in interviews. None of our well-maintained presidential BLPs have such a section. (The section was largely translated from frwiki, and follows frwiki's cavalier tendency toward journalistic rather than encyclopedic style). DFlhb (talk) 00:52, 3 September 2023 (UTC)

I strongly disagree with you on that:

1) A political leader gets to be defined by the positions they take as much as by the policies they implement... I think people have the right to know how a leader thinks about the issues a country or the world can face. Current leaders have not always been in power, they may have spent parts of their careers in opposition or even outside party politics, and, above all, every democratic leader has to campaign in an election to get in power: as an example, knowing how they thought/think before becoming the one making the decisions IS essential.

2) I've just taken a look at BLPs of the five most recent UK PMs: every one of them has a 'political positions' section. Honestly, why would it be different for the current President of France?

3) I agree this section should shortened and updated. Frenchpolit (talk) 18:39, 3 September 2023 (UTC)

Don't see any reason why that shouldn't be split. Countless other politicians have separate articles to the same effect. estar8806 (talk) ★ 19:34, 3 September 2023 (UTC)

 Done -- SashiRolls ^{🌿 · 🍥} 11:20, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

I do not think splitting is absolutely necessary, but if it is to take place, therefore the 'political positions' content should be thoroughly updated beforehand.

If there is consensus about it, I am not going to oppose it. Frenchpolit (talk) 14:25, 5 September 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 7 October 2023

The article wrongfully states that the relationship between Macron and his wife started when he was 18. Both sources referred to write clearly that the relationship started when he was 16 or 17. Please rectify. 94.109.160.70 (talk) 08:16, 7 October 2023 (UTC)

There are multiple sources that discuss their relationship. Could you provide a link to the source you're referring to? —TechnoSquirrel69 (sigh) 03:28, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

 Done (by removing the misleading text linking to the age of majority) -- SashiRolls ^{🌿 · 🍥} 12:35, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Elisabeth Borne

change ((Elisabeth Borne)) to ((Élisabeth Borne)) 2601:540:CA80:5FB0:3033:4131:60C8:D7F3 (talk) 18:56, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

 Done PianoDan (talk) 21:11, 24 October 2023 (UTC)

Replacing the infobox photo

It looks like the photo File:Macron Michel 2023 (cropped).jpg was nominated for deletion, so it's better to just replace this photo File:Emmanuel Macron 2022.png because it complies with the license and better. Baqotun0023 (talk) 03:37, 30 January 2024 (UTC)