Talk:Emir Kusturica/Archive 1

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Archive 1

Ethnicity of Kusturica's parents, confirmed Serbian

It was often speculated that Kusturica's parents had been declaring as 'Muslims by nationality' in former Yugoslavia, an ethnicity that would become today Bosniaks. According to the approved Kusturica's memoirs of 1994, exclusively published by Serbian leading newspaper Politika and signed by Kusturica himself, his parents and grandparents had been declaring themselves as Serbs. Kusturica's memoirs are in Serbian, but here are the translated sentences: 'Since I was never a Muslim (by nationality), I cannot be a traitor of Muslims. By my language, I was a Serb, and by my education, I was a Czech who learned almost entire Old Testament by heart. During the last one hundred years, all my ancestors from my mother's and father's side were declaring as Serbs. [...] (Speaking of treason) I was the first traitor in my family. I had declared as a Yugoslav, and not as a Serb as the rest of my family had been doing. So, if there were any word about treason, that could only be the treason of Serbdom. But since there is no treason at all (Kusturica is a declared Serb), then it is not even the treason of Serbs.' 109.93.101.170 (talk) 15:38, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

The No Smoking Orchestra

His linkage to the band "The No Smoking Orchestra" is missing in the text, it is only visible from one image. Chris --80.134.151.130 22:47, 18 July 2005 (UTC)

About inserting Emir's baptismal name into his full name

If you check out Category:Serbian_people, you will se that Serbs don't write their baptismal name in their full name. So, it is wrong to write "Emir Nemanja Kusturica". "Emir Kusturica" is sufficient. --Dijxtra 08:36, 12 September 2005 (UTC)

Basically, Nemanja Kusturica is proper and sufficient, as he gave up his given name (Emir) upon conversion to orthodoxy. Just for the sake of convenience and recognisability, editor should leave a remark about his former name somewhere in the text, and/or arrange redirection from 'emir kusturica' when searching, to this page. -—Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.158.38.185 (talk) 21:00, 10 February 2007

See Willy Brandt - 'Willy Brandt, born Herbert Ernst Karl Frahm'. So, proper and correct way is to enter Nemanja Kusturica, born Emir Kusturica.-—Preceding unsigned comment added by 153.39.144.157 (talk) 19:25, 6 March 2008

Objective?

In The Widow of St. Pierre 2000, a movie by director Patrice Leconte, Kusturica, here in his first appearance as an actor, has little in the way of lines, but his eyes and body language speak volumes.
This doesn't seem all that objective to me?
Also, Nikolaidis - the writer who critisized Kusturica - is from Montenegro, not Bosnia.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.253.94.203 (talk) 18:51, 30 September 2005

I fixed the Nikolaidis thing, thanks for pointing that out... and as for the "body language speaks volumes", well dunno, it seems to violate NPOV a bit, but just I don't feel like modifying that sentence :-) --Dijxtra 17:20, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

A.Nikolaidis is from Bosnia(born there(Sarajevo) in 1974).He went to Montenegro(Ulcinj)with his family(his father's side is originally from Ulcinj,while his mother's side from Sarajevo-Bosnia) in 1992.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.66.160.3 (talk) 15:51, 11 January 2006

Allocation of material

It's pretty ridiculous that close to one half of the article about a world famous director is devoted to what some attention-seeking two-bit columnist had to say about him. Nikolaidis' criticism is worthy of mention but it certainly doesn’t require this much space. --Zvonko 20:48, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

Well, he is controversial... and I think the chapter summes up the controversy nicely. But, yes, you are right, more info on other aspects of Kusturica would be nice. It's just I don't know where to get any more info... --Dijxtra 20:52, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

I would like to point out that Nikolaidis is not, by any chance, an attention-seeking two-bit columnist, but a critically acknowledged author, and I honestly feel that there is not enough talk about Kusturica's controversy. -- — Preceding unsigned comment added by Chajanka (talk • contribs) 17:19, 25 August 2006

BTW, if you log in, you can sign with ~~~~. This four characters will then transform to this: Dijxtra 20:53, 21 January 2006 (UTC)

If you want to add more to the article you could talk about his work with the No Smoking Orchestra, it's only mentionned once in the article. --Red Star 01:34, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

Controversial lyrics

Last addition to the article is absurd. The song does not contain those lyrics at all.

I fought the law

The law fought me

Hey mr sheriff

Where I might be

I might have fun

In port of Amstredam

I might be a jerk

In City of New York

I might be close

I might be far

I might be a star

Over Kandahar

It's time to say goodbye oh my darling

Save your tears and give a kiss to our son

I hope the Northern star will be shining

I'm a wanted man and I'm on the run

Inquisition,

human rights division

Soul selling and buying

Cultural revision

Work out Rambo

And get those evil men

It all goes with burgers

Hollywood and CNN

I did a crime

I created fear

for a 1000 years

it's time…

If I was a pigon

You made me a falcon

Now I am falcon

over hills of Balkan

if I was a wisper

You made me a thunder

And I wonder and I wonder

Why you made me a thunder

And I wonder still I wonder

You need me as a thunder

See me in the papers

On the billboard paint

I was a sinner

You made me a saint

It'is time…

The old shepherd trick

For his sheep

The wolf as a stick

Makes them sleep

Makes them blind

Makes them sleep

Makes them silent

Makes them sleep

And when I find myself

Locked in prison

Mother Mary comes to me

Oh mother Mary who will be

Wanted man instead of me

It's time…

65.94.132.77 19:47, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

As I got it, on the live version, the song has this lyrics at the end. --Dijxtra 09:24, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

The whole thing sounds very ridiculous so far. Initially, the story appeared in something called ‘Start BiH’, magazine that can, at best, be described as sensationalist.[1] The best strategy for selling papers in Sarajevo is sticking Kusturica on the cover, and this magazine being clearly aware of that used it to sell some copies (as they did on numerous prior occasions when they had him on the cover for no newsworthy reasons). Secondly, Start's story is clearly false in its core because they claimed the actual lyric appears in the song, which is definitely not true. That can be easily checked since the song’s lyrics are available on the net.

Around the same time, a few Croatian media outlets picked up the story. Some of them seem to suggest the sentence was actually delivered outside of the song, while others repeat the false ‘Bosnian story’ verbatim. None provided context nor did they state who allegedly said ‘the sentence’.

So, based on the available info so far, I don’t know if all of this is pure garbage, or in the case there is something to the story , who should the sentence be attributed to (Nele?, Kusturica?, bass player??, drummer????).

On top of everything, Nele himself rubbished the story in Blic yesterday.[2]

And… not to mention the fact that the sentence itself is almost nonsensical and as such actually does not clearly refer to any specific person. In the end I wouldn’t even be surprised if it turns out they have an accordion player or driver named Radovan, and used that to create a stir like they did with ‘the Marshal episode’ in 1984.Zvonko 20:21, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

I agree, this is highly sensitive stuff. But, we're here to enforce NPOV and cite our sources. Sooo, we'll do that and see where the developement of this story takes us. If we just stick to Wikipedia guidelines, I'm sure we'll be fine. I'll add now that Nele demanted the story (as soon I read the article). BTW, I wouldn't be surprised to hear Emir say something like that, but Nele... I attend the same faculty as Sejo and I thought to go and ask Sejo if he thinks that Nele could do something like that. I mean, I don't think Nele would approve a song like that. But, then again, that's my POV...

And as for the lyric, the fact that the verse is not in the official lyrics means nothing... just remember Bregović's "a krist je bio kopile i jad" ;-) --Dijxtra 21:10, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

I spoke to Sejo Sexon today. On my great surprise, he confirmed this and said he got the bootleg of the song 3 years ago. Now, this fact 1) is a hearsay, 2) doesn't exist in a written form. Therefore, it cannot be used as a reference. Therefore, I think it's best to keep the article as is (not to remove the paragraph, but not to add Sejo's remark as nobody except me heard it).

Sejo could not have heard the song three years ago, as the controversial lyric was sung in 2005, and is on the live album "Live is a miracle in Buenos Aires" ;) --estavisti 19:14, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

Dunno. I just said what he said. I mean, could be that it was sung prior to being released on live album. BTW, if it's released, why doesn't somebody buy it and check that out, once and for all? :-) --Dijxtra 19:53, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

Pronunciation?

Is the listed pronunciation (stress on the penultimate syllable) correct? I don't speak Serbian (C-S-B-M-etc.), but would rather expect something along the lines of the stress falling on first or second syllable. Could somebody in the know give it a look? Cheers -- 198.36.32.17 17:05, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Religious background.

"This is what Emir says about this: "My father was an atheist and he always described himself as a Serb. OK, maybe we were Muslim for 250 years, but we were Orthodox before that and deep down we were always Serbs, religion cannot change that. We only became Muslims to survive the Turks."" Well obviously, after he got married with his Serbian wife he decided to change his religion to orthodox. He only became Orthodox to survive his wife? He never had a problem with his religion until the war came, and when he married a serbian wife. Now after he's married his wife she obviously did everything she can to make him a real Serb. I myself am Atheist. -— Preceding unsigned comment added by ZLK (talk • contribs) 22:50, 16 June 2006

He reverted back to being a Serb because "[He family was] Muslim for 250 years, but we were Orthodox before that and deep down we were always Serbs, religion cannot change that. We only became Muslims to survive the Turks." In addition, he is my favorite Serb in the world and I truly see him as a 100% Serb and accept him as such.24.36.19.38 (talk) 11:23, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

What is revival for Kusturica?

In some of his movies characters turn to be alive after being dead for some time. How does he explain it, what does he tell about it?

IPA Transcription

Shouldn't it be /kusturitsa/ rather than /-tza/? The stress also is wrong, it sounds more like /'kusturitsa/ or even (in Bosnia) /'kusturtsa/, but someone who knows about Serbian/Croatian/Bosnian tones should insert the correct stress/tone pattern. Wathiik 13:23, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

I changed it now according to the information provided to me by a specialist in the field. The first /u/ has to be long and rising, does anyone know how to transcribe that? Can anyone verify that? Wathiik 20:55, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

Where is the proof?

Where is the proof that Kusturica converted to Orthodox Christianity? or did he automatically change due to his marriage? Wathiik 20:53, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

There, I referenced the claim. He didn't marry, he just went to the church and baptised. --Dijxtra 21:06, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

It is ridiculous that people are so judgmental about religious conversion. Why the assumption that he only converted because of his wife? He is a grown man with a strong will and intelligent mind. This is as ridiculous as assuming that conversion to Islam is insincere because the person happens to be originally Orthodox Christian or Catholic.

Esmama 18:56, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

About name

First u in surname Kusturica is short and accented. In his nickname "Kusta" u is long and also accented. So, it would look like this: ku.stu.ri.tza. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Crnnica (talk • contribs) 22:52, 19 March 2007 (UTC).

Ethnicity

He is not a Bosnian Serb. He is Bosnian so please leave it as it is. Going to Orthodox church and being baptized does not make you a Bosnian Serb. It makes you a Bosnian of Orthodox religion. -—Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.174.92.63 (talk) 17:40, 16 May 2007

- =Serb -—Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.32.46.218 (talk) 12:58, 25 March 2009

hahahahaha --iNkubusse^? 00:15, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

He is a muslim (not anymore though) Serb, taking a different religion doesn't make you a Bosniak, it makes you a muslim Serb. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.190.202.217 (talk) 22:27, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

Emir Kusturica

Emir kusturia has himself, serveral times made clear for others that he is a serb. Who are really the bosnians? The first one to convert in Bosnia were Serb aristocracies, so they could keep their privileges. Then others started to convert, ordinary people, only to survive the brutal Turks - for 500 years! The conception "Bosnian" was maybe used at that time, but it was not referring to any nationality. For example: I sometimes call myself a "herzegovian", for I am from Herzegovina, but i am still 100% Serb.-—Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.67.92.73 (talk) 16:01, 29 May 2007

Nationality

I'm the user under the collective IP 212.200.56.13 that has made an edit that annoyed many. When I first opened the Wikipedia page about Emir Kusturica, I found out that he was considered "Bosnian", so I changed it to 'Serbian' only to be accused of 'hijacking' and to be discriminated about my country of origin ("If you feel so strongly about your country, go and do something rather than hijacking others achievments", Hmm1984), and the Serbian reference was deleted in the article. I suppose it was OK to leave "Bosnian" for months although he is not Bosnian director, but it isn't OK to mention that he is Serbian, although he is.

Emir Kusturica is born as Bosnian Muslim of Montenegrin origin, and unlike other Bosnian Muslims, he declares himself as Serb and not Bosniak. Note: Bosnian Serbs and Bosnian Bosniaks are one people of one language and culture, divided only by religious affiliation - Bosnian Serbs consider themselves kins to Serbian, Montenegrin and Croatian Serbs, while Bosniaks don't. So, considering Kusturica's ethnicity, it is only fair to say that he is a Serb, or, more precise, a Bosnian Serb. The ethnicity in Bosnia and Herzegovina depends only on one's self-declaration, and not on any objective criteria. For instance, although most Orthodox Christians refer to themselves as Serbs, and Muslims as Bosniaks, there are some Orthodoxes who declare as Bosniaks, as well as some Muslims who declare as Serbs. Therefore, Kusturica is no "traitor" or "converter" as suggested, but a full-blooded born Serb of Muslim confession. That is, he was, until he was baptized in Orthodox Church and became a Christian accepting baptismal name Nemanja. If some Bosnian patriots wish to give a stronger accent of his region of birth, it is only correct to say that he was Bosnian Serb.

Second, the matter of nationality. Kusturica made three films (two in Bosnia and Herzegovina and one in Serbia) in former Yugoslavia (dissolved in early 1990's), living and working in Sarajevo, which is now the capital of Bosnia and Herzegovina. It is important to stress that since the dissolution of Yugoslavia, Kusturica has been living and working in Serbia. The only two countries he has lived in were Yugoslavia and Serbia. Why is then inappropriate to say that he was Yugoslavian as well as Serbian? Because, following the pattern where other living people who were born before the Yugoslavian dissolution are associated either with ethnicity or with residence to the new countries, he is Serbian. A conflict may occur if a person of Serbian ethnicity lives and works in Croatia (or vice versa), and when it is fair to mention that the word is about a 'Croatian Serb' or 'Serbian Croat' or 'Montenegrin Serb' etc. But if a person is of Croatian ethnicity and lives in Croatia, or of Macedonian ethnicity and lives in Macedonia, we don't talk about every single town and village they lived in Yugoslavia nor we present them as Yugoslavian, but only as belonging to the country which coincides with their ethnicity. For instance, Belgrade actor Žarko Radić was of Croatian ethnicity and has lived and worked in Serbia until the 1990's, and when the war started, he moved to Croatia. The same as many Sarajevo Serbs moved to Serbia, as well as Kusturica, running away from war that errupted, and leaving the Bosniak-majority regions. Žarko Radić isn't mentioned as "Serbian" or "Yugoslavian", but as Croatian. And he should be, since he is an ethnic Croat that lives in Croatia. The same with Kusturica.

To conclude (I am sorry for the long text, but I wanted to make clear the true reasons of my interventions, which are not hijackings), Emir Kusturica is Serbian director who is of Bosnian Serb origin. Why Serbian? Because Serbia is the country he represents, the country whose citizen he is, the country where he resides and works, and because Serbia is a (by its constitutional definitions) mother-country of all Serbs worldwide. If someone feels that it is important to speak about the specific details about his Serbian ethnicity (religion, birthplace, country of origin etc.) it can be mentioned later in the text. For the basic input, he is Serbian, and that's all about it. Marechiel 02:23, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

Emir is a Muslim name and he is from Sarajevo, he is a Bosniak from Bosnia. 217.134.88.96 18:00, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Emir is an universal Muslim name but not unique Bosniak name. Why to insist on his Bosniak ethnical background if he denied it? According to Kusturica, his father Murat was Serb. As somebody already said, the ethnicity in the most of former Yugoslavia depends only on one's self-declaration, and not on any objective criteria. --N Jordan 00:12, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

And Nemanja is a Serbian name. Kusturica is from Serbia now, not Bosnia any more. --George D. Božović 16:01, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

As 217.134.88.96 said, Emir is a traditional name among Muslims. But not all Muslims are Bosnian Bosniaks. Some are Arabs, some are Turks, some are American members of black Nation of Islam, and some are Bosnian Serbs as Kusturica. Marechiel 13:48, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

There is no evidence that Kusturica's parents considered themselves Bosniaks. He stated that his father was Serb. So I changed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.242.124.30 (talk) 21:19, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

In this article Kusturica stated that his father always described himself as a Serb. There are references for this No. 12(13) i 14(15). I can see how some journalist from USA can be reliable source for Kusturica's ethnicity. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.242.124.30 (talk) 15:14, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

(Removed indent) According to the biography on Kusturica's own website, he's Serbian: "Born on 24 November 1954 in Sarajevo, Emir Kusturica (Емир Кустурица) is a Serbian director, musician and producer." I have added the reference, and hope this might end the reverts once and for all, since the man obviously would know his own nationality. Asav (talk) 03:13, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

Emir Kusturica is a Serb, from a Serbian family (his father always declared himself a Serb too), born into a Muslim family, later adopted Christianity. The fact that the nationality in this region is not a matter of genetics, racial, or other similar background, but mostly based on individual choice and feeling doesn't make someone Bosniak or Serb just on the basis of their religious background. If an Orthodox Christian from Bosnia considers himself Bosnian by nationality or Bosniak by nationality it's his right and the matter of personal feeling of belonging, and therefore no one can say he is of Serbian descent. It's not like where one can make a clear distinction between Serbs or Bosniaks and Albanians, or Germans and French, these are the ppl of the same roots, much like Bavarian and Austrian ppl are. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Byxl (talk • contribs) 10:08, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

"Orthodox name"

“Orthodox name” doesn’t have any meaning in English. There is something called Christian name or baptism name – that is a name formally given to a person during baptism. When we say that Kusturica is a Serbian filmmaker and actor, we don’t emphasize his ethnic background but the fact that he belongs to the Serbian cinematography. You may describe him as a Bosnian Serb in the "Religion and identity" section, but at the beginning of the article we should talk about cinematography – not ethnicity.--N Jordan (talk) 07:46, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

baptism name is good term. --Vojvodae ist 09:01, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

Conflicting Dates

The birth dates are different in the text section(24th nov) and picture section(24th dec). —Preceding unsigned comment added by Sangs01 (talk • contribs) 23:15, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

Undo revision 252672543 by 98.234.148.223

As far I know Kustirica declares himself as Serbian artist (filmmaker, actor, and musician). We can say he was part of Bosnian cinematography while Bosnian cinematography was part of Yugoslav cinematography. He left Bosnia before the declared independence from Yugoslavia. When the war in Bosnia began, he was already in France. After that he moved to Serbia. He was active in Bosnian cinematography only 8 years from 1981 to 1989. For the last 15 years he lives and works in Sebia. Comments on how he is seen “by muslim majority of his hometown” are irrelevant, especially at the beginning of the article (1st paragraph). He is in Wikipedia because he’s a great filmmaker – not because of his religion or political views.--N Jordan (talk) 08:55, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Conversion

There is no any proof that Mr. Kusturica ever practicized Islam. Both of his parents were atheists and give him no religious education in any sense. so I removed tag "Converts from Islam to Eastern Orthodoxy. -—Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.23.199.4 (talk) 01:28, 21 September 2009 Somebody put that tag back and add two more Bosnian and Serbian Former Muslims. As it is said in prewious comment, there is no any kind of proof that Emir Kusturica is raised as an Muslim or that he ever practisized Islam. Please read section Personal in this article. At best his grandfather was Muslim, but it does not makes him an Muslim. So if there was any conversion it was conversion from atheism to Eastern Orthodoxy. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 31.193.133.161 (talk) 00:43, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

In his interview, to Guardian, Kusturica said "My father was an atheist and he always described himself as a Serb. OK, maybe we were Muslim for 250 years, but we were orthodox before that and deep down we were always Serbs, religion cannot change that. We only became Muslims to survive the Turks." Also in interview to Coratian newspapers Globus he stated that his family did not practice any elemnt of Islamic tradition. As far as I know, there is no any kind of evidence which would suggest that Kusturica, in any point of his life was Muslim, hence I removed all categories which would suggest him as former Muslim. --Dalibor Đurić (talk) 16:10, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

Nikolaidis

My English is very bad, so I do not know how to translate this. Could someone help: Vrhovni sud Crne Gore presudio u korist Kusturice (in Serbian) -—Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.23.199.4 (talk) 01:21, 24 September 2009

Politics

Zoran Lilić was president of FR Yugoslavia, his election was internationally recognized. Milorad Vućelić was CEO of national television not "head of Milošević's propaganda". Jovica Stanišić was chief of State Security Service (today BIA. If you say "head of Milošević's propaganda", "at the time the regime's puppet president" it is hatred speech. This is encyklopedia not some kind of internet forum where you can placing your personal believes. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.242.124.30 (talk) 19:18, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

FIlmography

The filmography section is a bit confusing because every single film there was directed by Kusturica besides L'affaire Farewell. Therefore, the section should either be split up in films he directed, wrote, and starred in (like IMDb) or L'affaire Farewell should be removed from the list (which I don't think would be the best solution). Paperoverman (talk) 21:34, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

Name change, again...

Please note that I reverted the changes made by User:No such user, who removed Kusturica's middle name from the intro. Let me point out that this has nothing to do with any "nationalist" question, but is simply done to adhere to encyclopedic conventions, e.g. stating the subject's full name at the start of the initial paragraph. For example, if you look up Winston Churchill, you'll find that he's initially presented as "Winston Leonard Spencer-Churchill", his complete name. Again, it's simply a WP standard unrelated to Kusturica's ethnicity. Asav (talk) 04:19, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

And once more. The same still applies. Asav (talk) 15:26, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

Lets make this clear

Milosevic is a SERBIAN christian orthodox. Emir Kusuturica is BOSNIAN christian orthodox. End of story. If you are born in US and identify yourself as a orthodox, then you are AMERICAN christian orhodox. I don't see where the confusion is? (excpet the part where milosevic tried to take over Bosnia and call it a Serbia, it didn't work so it is BOSNIAN indeed)-—Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.209.209.129 (talk) 23:07, 19 August 2010

Nationality or citizenship and ethnicity are totally different things. You have countless ethnicities in America, mostly Germans, but also Latinos, African-Americans, English, Scotts etc. You also have ethnicities in Britain, like English, Scotts, Irish, Welsh. You also have ethnicities in Bosnia and Herzegovina like, Croats, Serbs, Slovaks, Ukrainians, Hungarians, and finally also people that are solely and exclusively defined by their religion, namely the Muslims or Bosniaks. However Emir Kusturica is not a Bosniak, but a Serb, whose family has muslim heritage, but never in his own words declared themselves to be a different ethnicity than the Serbs. If one changes his faith, one does not change his ethnicity, although there are people that may be so repelled with their own ethnical heritage so they define themselves exclusively by their religion and faith. Regards. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.117.32.61 (talk) 15:22, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

Antalya Golden Orange Film Festival

Hi. Kusturica was going to be the had of the jury in this year's festival. Turkish culture minister boycotted the festival. Kusturica left Turkey because of strong criticism and protests about his words about Bosnian war. Can someone native (or who speaks better English than I do) edit the article please?--Abuk SABUK (talk) 17:12, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

Nationality

If you are Born in Canada, you are CANADIAN, regardless of your religion (christian, chatolic, muslim etc), ethnicity (black, white, yellow, brown).
Kusturica was born in BOSNIA and is therefore BOSNIAN. Kusturica can believe that his parents are from Mars and Venus and belive in his clingon religion or Martian religion, that does NOT change the fact that HE is born in BOSNIA and is therefore BOSNIAN. Why is this hard for you to understand?? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.193.96.156 (talk • contribs)

Not all the people who are born in Bosnia are Bosnians. Kusturica is Serb from Bosnia. He could be born in Turkmenistan, and still to be Serb. --WhiteWriter ^speaks 16:24, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

Actually he was born in Yugoslavia,so by your logic, it makes him a Yugoslavian, not Serbian or Bosnian — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.180.47.215 (talk) 14:02, 16 June 2011 (UTC)

Nationality vs ethnicity

Isn`t Emir Bosnian? His name, Emir is not Serbian (doesn`t sound like it) and it he reference [3] - second paragraph it says "Emir Kusturica was born in Sarajevo, main town of current Bosnia and Herzegovina. Even though Bosnian Muslim, his family has Slavic orthodox roots. " - where it states that he is a Bosnian Muslim, atheist with Orthodox roots but Bosnian nonetheless. This reference is used to state that he is Serbian which is very dubious. Nationality is membership of a nation or sovereign state - or making a part of that culture, which Emir certainly is, but that doesn`t change his descent. I think that a correction should be made considering this subject. Having in mind that this reference supports this statement, I have found another one [4]. Can someone please clarify this ? Adrian (talk) 18:22, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

More precisely I am proposing(based on references) to change the lead from "Emir Nemanja Kusturica (Serbian Cyrillic: Емир Немања Кустурица), (born 24 November 1954 in Sarajevo) is a Serbian[1] and Yugoslavian filmmaker, actor and musician, " to "Emir Nemanja Kusturica (Serbian Cyrillic: Емир Немања Кустурица), (born 24 November 1954 in Sarajevo) is a Serbian[1] and Yugoslavian filmmaker, actor and musician, of Bosniak descent..." Adrian (talk) 19:23, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

"In some areas of the world, one's nationality is determined by their ethnicity, rather than citizenship.". As already explained numerous time before, per this, and his own statements, he is regarded now only as a Serb born in Sarajevo. We have numerous sources for that already, including his official biography, that was used not for that paragraph you cited, then for : "Emir Kusturica (Емир Кустурица) is a Serbian director, musician and producer." Any other including of his origin is just pushing, as those are already included in "Early life and works" section. --WhiteWriter ^speaks 16:46, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

Ok, but Emir (judging by references) isn`t of Serbian descent. Regardless of his statements , that can`t change facts. Today he is regarded as a Serb from Bosnia - because he is saying that and he accepted the Serbian culture/religion, but again, that doesn`t change the fact that he is of Bosniak descent.

EX: I may be of Iranian descent but to consider myself German today. To have a German citizenship - which makes me by nationality German (not by ethnicity) To be a German writer and everything. I am German, because I took the German culture, religion, I contribute to the German culture only, and I am accepting German as primary, but that still doesn`t change the fact that I am of Iranian descent.
EX: Vasko Popa - he was a Serbian poet - because he contributed to the Serbian culture and he was a citizen of Serbia, but he was an ethnic Serb. Same with Emir.

We don`t have a single reference stating that he is ethnic Serb - I haven`t seen it. Can you please present some of the references stating his ethnic origin? I don`t think that is pushing since almost every reference about him states that his origin was Bosniak it is only stating the facts, and omitting his descent is a big deal. Adrian (talk) 07:31, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

I dont think that it is a big deal, but i added info. I thought that if we already have that info in the "Early life and works" section, that we dont need it again in the lede. Also, it will only do good for the article informative and neutral side, so... Why not! :) --WhiteWriter ^speaks 12:32, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

Thanks. I think this is important because he is a Serbian actor and musician, which presumes that he is of Serbian descent also. If some person isn`t, it is usually stated in the lead as EX:"German writer of Iranian descent". I will just add a reference to that. Greetings. Adrian (talk) 16:44, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

Nationality/ethnicity revisited

In accordance with the discussion above, the fact that EK was of Bosniak descent was added plus reference back in February 2011. That remained the established version until an edit war started with this edit. This matter should have been discussed here after PRODUCER's first revert according to WP:BRD. I have notified the editors who took part in the original discussion as well as those involved more rcently. Please endeavour to reach consensus.Fainites ^barleyscribs 16:13, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

I reverted producer because his edit was against WP:OPENPARA (3.2) and because that info seems ideal to be found in the "Early life" or other sections of that kind. The lead is to sumaize content. FkpCascais (talk) 16:59, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

But, if other users beleave it is better to have it included, I wan´t opose. I just see a bit too pretentious on PRODUCER behalve to want to exclude him from Serbs of Bosnia and Herzegovina infobox and forcebly insist on him as Bosniak, because Kusturica itself has been quite clear about wanting to be known as Serbian. So any sort of ethnical beckgrounds and so, has no other place but in "Early life" or similar sections, as I already said. And btw, we already have that mentioned there, and producer could further expand it if he desires so, as I already said this to him. FkpCascais (talk) 17:04, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

Thanks Fkp. Fainites ^barleyscribs 17:07, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

Interestingly your perfectly ok with leaving Serbian and Yugoslav but you see a problem with Bosniak. Why is that?

As Adrian said: "I think this is important because he is a Serbian actor and musician, which presumes that he is of Serbian descent also. If some person isn`t, it is usually stated in the lead as EX:"German writer of Iranian descent"."

If I was trying to "forcebly insist on him as Bosniak" I would have removed Serbian from the lede and added him to the Bosniaks article. On the other hand Serb editors are trying to remove "of Bosniak descent" and introduce him in the Serbs of Bosnia and Herzegovina article.-- ◅PRODUCER _(TALK) 17:40, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

Producer, Adrians assumption is wrong. And we absolutely don´t need to make everyones genealogical three to have a good biographical article. It seems that you intended to add that straight to the lead just to demonstrate how he is somehow "polemical" and use it as argument for you to remove it from Serbs of BiH infobox. Sorry, but that failed, he is not "polemical", and he was very clear in declaring himself, and perfectly rightfully included in that infobox. You are the one pushing that info with second intentions. If you are honestly interested in expanding the article, please do so in the adquate section. Why haven´t you already? FkpCascais (talk) 17:58, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

It is absolutely misleading and as Adrian described. You wish to present the partial side of Kusturica's ethnicity/nationality that you favor and wish to omit the other.

I didn't "add that straight to the lead just to demonstrate how he is somehow "polemical" and use it as argument". A consensus was formed by users in February to add it. [5]

You and other Serbian editors add him to the Serbs of Bosnia and Herzegovina infobox and try to remove "of Bosniak descent" from the lead and I'm the one with "second intentions". Words fail me. -- ◅PRODUCER _(TALK) 18:13, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

PRODUCER, please, "You and other Serbian editors" may be understood like personal attack. Comment on content, not on the contributor. Life would be easier without nationalistic pretensions. Emir is, by his personal word and many other things, undoubtedly Serb. As he was (also undoubtedly) born in Sarajevo, of Bosniak descent, we have only one question. Just to see is that info ("of Bosniak descent") really that important to be in the very top of the article. As i already stated above, and per his own explanation, i don't find it so important to be in the first sentence of the article. Like that is a little bit POV push for me... We already have some better explanations in the Early life and works. But, we will see what the rest of people say, and we will agree per that. It's not the most important edit in the wiki world for me, and its not wrong also! :) --WhiteWriter ^speaks 19:32, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

Pointing out a conflict of interest is not a personal attack.

It would be a "POV push" to omit one side of Kusturica's ethnicity/nationality (Bosniak) while choosing to include the other side (Serbian). -- ◅PRODUCER _(TALK) 21:01, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

FkpCascais - please stop. It is plain PRODUCER was reverting to a previously agreed and established version, not making a fresh edit. I doubt Adrian and White Writer are remotely interested in the shenanegins on Serbs of Bosnia and Herzegovina.Fainites ^barleyscribs 22:21, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

lol :). As I explained before, there are many examples on wikipedia of persons that are not the same nationality and ethnicity. I don`t see what was misleading in my example. It is very clear. But this way is also OK. It is usually mentioned in the lead, but if that is a problem then it is OK like this. However we should reinsert references that were present. Adrian (talk) 20:36, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

Kusturica is notable for being a filmmaker, actor and musician. And there are no doubts that he is a Serbian filmmaker, actor and musician. Just as Andrea Petkovic is a German tennis player, and not Germano-Serbian-Bosnian, or anything else. And please don´t ignore WP:OPENPARA which is very clear for these situations. It is not about being a Serbian issue, because I many times deleted "Serbian" in other articles but in same situations.

@PRODUCER, why don´t you expand that in the "Early life" section?

@Adrian, those exemples you mentioned should be corrected as to follow WP:OPENPARA. In football related articles this is hapening already, with houndreds of articles being ridd off complexities: if a player plays for ex: Sweden, he is Swedish footballer; if a person is General in Austrian Army, he is Austrian General, not Poland-born Austrian/Czech/Swiss General... I agree that the references and Bosniak descent is restored, but not in the lead, but in the right place, and anyone who wants he is welcome to do it.

@WhiteWriter, yes, that is exactly the point.

@All, regards, FkpCascais (talk) 21:08, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

Not sure I agree Fkp. I wouldn't see anything inherently wrong in saying Fredski was a Polish born General in the Austrian Army or that Patel is a Swedish footballer of Indian descent or something. It seems to me that there is consensus that the fact that he is of Bosniak descent, plus reference, should clearly be in the body of the article. As to whether it sould be in the lead, the relevent paragraph of WP:OPENPARA is 2.Ethnicity or sexuality should not generally be emphasized in the opening unless it is relevant to the subject's notability. So the issue is - is it relevent to his notability? I suppose in assessing this one should bear in mind the controversy about his work and positions regarding the recent wars, Serbia and Bosniaks and so on. Fainites ^barleyscribs 22:04, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

How does WP:OPENPARA only apply to him being Bosniak but not him being Serbian. -- ◅PRODUCER _(TALK) 22:41, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

Hmmm, well, he "got" his notability by being film director... His good, high-quality directing style make his what he is now. After that, his opinions and political statements created some international reactions, but i really highly doubt that any of those would be relevant internationally at all that he was not famous already when those utterances happened. As per main and overwhelming central idea of this article, that he is internationally known film director, i therefor think that his Bosnian origin are not relevant to that extent, and that its possible relevance now is quite questionable. And Producer, as per sources, his attitude, speeches and etc, he is undoubtedly Serbian, while his Bosniak origin are (as i see it) secondary in this article. Its more important what we are, then what we were. From that feeling, i wrote that "POV push question" above. This way, without origin, we will follow WP:OPENPARA guideline... Well, what the rest of you say? I would love to see some other reactions, and then i will know better! :) :) --WhiteWriter ^speaks 22:54, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

Re WP:OPENPARA the relevent paragraph is:

3.Context (location, nationality, or ethnicity);

1.In most modern-day cases this will mean the country of which the person is a citizen or national (according to each nationality law of the countries), or was a citizen when the person became notable.

2.Ethnicity or sexuality should not generally be emphasized in the opening unless it is relevant to the subject's notability. Similarly, previous nationalities or the country of birth should not be mentioned in the opening sentence unless they are relevant to the subject's notability.

So in other words his nationality would go in. I don't know whether his nationality is Serbian or not? If he is Bosnia-Herzegovinian, that would go in I suppose. Presumably he was born a Yugoslav citizen then but how did people become citizens of one region or another afterwards? And if he's not a "national" anywhere, then is the next port of call ethnicity? Fainites ^barleyscribs 23:00, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

Well, as far as i know, Kusturica have Serbian passport, he live most of the year in Serbia (few months in France, and maybe second passport, but french one should be taken with care... i dont remember well), and he claimed that when we was baptized, and when he accepted Christianity, he told that he just returned to his "grandfathers religion". That can be found all over internet... Also, per OPENPARA, we may (maybe) state that we has Yugoslav director, as that may be more important then Bosnian, as Yugoslavia was country in which "person became notable". In that case, Bosnian origin is really too much for first sentence. Instead all of that, i really, for sure, propose without both of that, Bosnian and Yugoslavian, and propose mentioning of those in the life section. --WhiteWriter ^speaks 23:15, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

So in other words he goes in as Serbian because he is a Serbian citizen - not for ethnic reasons. The next question then is, is his ethnicity sufficiently notable to be mentioned in the opening paragraph? White Writer doesn't think so. What about everyone else?Fainites ^barleyscribs 23:22, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

It may be claimed to reflect his nationality but at moment the article says otherwise "[[Serbs|Serbian]]" and given the intent that users involved in this discussion have had in the Serbs of Bosnia Herzegovina infobox it's hard to believe that it's meant to denote nationality. His politics aren't the only controversial thing about him. His most popular film has an ethnic dimension to it and has caused controversy both in and outside of former Yugoslavia:

Underground however, came under ardent critical fire from people who claimed to be able to penetrate beyond the staggering imagery and to decipher the arcane historical and political propositions upon which the film was built. The main accusation was that the film was actually a well-masked version of Serbian propaganda in times when Serbia was largely believed to be the aggressive force in the war that ensued from the partition of what used to be federalist Yugoslavia. The most outspoken critic of Kusturica was Stanko Cerovic, a Paris-based journalist of Montenegrin extraction, who claimed that it was not by chance that in Underground the revolution is led metaphorically by a Montenegrin and a Serb; two archetypal Belgrade figures, who together represent the cliche image of Serb heroes created by nationalist writers. [...] selectively chosen the documentary footage used in the film to depict the Croats as Nazi collaborators and thus indirectly glorify the brave Serbs [...] Other high profile figures such as Andre Glucksman, Bernard Henry-Levy (who made the documentary Bosna!) and Peter Handke (who publicly defended the Serbs) got involved in the heated media discussion, which was covered on the pages of such high profile publications as Le Monde, Liberation, Journal du dimanche, Suddeutsche Zeitung, the Independent, the Guardian, El Pais and Corriere de la Sera, as well as in The New Yorker.
— Cinema of Flames: Balkan Film, Culture, and the Media, British Film Institute, Dina Iordanova

-- ◅PRODUCER _(TALK) 23:47, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

You mean it currently claims Serbian ethnicity rather than nationality.Fainites ^barleyscribs 23:59, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

Yes. -- ◅PRODUCER _(TALK) 00:04, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

So for it not to do that, it would have to say [[Serbia|Serbian]] rather than [[Serbs|Serbian]].Fainites ^barleyscribs 00:07, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

It can still be interpreted in ethnic terms regardless of the wikilink hidden behind it. -- ◅PRODUCER _(TALK) 00:12, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

I think it is important that we make Fainites familiarised with this ethnical reality in the region. In ex-Yugoslavia people usually have more than one ethnicity in their blood, and the "pure" ones are really, really rare. Me for exemple, I am a Serb, Czech, Ashkenazi and German from my father side, and from my mother side, I am a Serb from part Bosnia, part Montenegro and part Serbia proper. So, if you Fainites really see, people could claim I am not totaly Serb, and that could be the case for more then 95% of Serbs, specially now with the subcategories of Serbs that are from Bosnia, Croatia, Macedonia, or Montenegrins who rather declare as Serb than Montenegrin, or Bosniaks who openly declare themselfs as Serbs... You can even see cases of ethnically non-Serbs being hard line Serbian nationalists, see Frenki Simatović who was a ethnic Croat that fought Croats in the 1990s war (see his article so you´ll understand).

Basically Fainites, people can be whatever they declare being. You even have cases of people that declare Croats when in Croatia, and Serbs when in Serbia (Kopunović footballers, played for clubs in both countries, allways as "domestic") and usually non-nationalist people with mixed families will behave like that.

Now, with Kusturica the case is different. He is ethnically mixed, with Bosniak blood (different from Bosnian, Bosnians are people from Bosnia and can be of different ethnicities, athough in practice only Bosniaks declare as Bosnians) that declares himself as Serb, that is citizen of Serbia, that works for very long time now in Serbia... Basically, what else should he do to be considered Serbian??? He already shouts that constantly for long time... And Fainites, I´m not sure if you noteced this, probably yes, that Serbs from Bosnia, for exemple, are Serbs, and not Bosnians because they are in Bosnia. Serbs from Bosnia or Croatia are as Serbs as from Serbia because the borders don´t represent actual ethnic divisions, and just as in the case of Croats from Bosnia, they are usually even more nationalists than the ones from Serbia...

Resumingly, if a person says he is exemple, Croatian, he is Croatian, even if he was born in Macedonia, his father is from Slovenia, has a Hungarian grand-mother, an Italian wife and children... see the point? To joke a bit: Most of us have exotic nanies, but that doesn´t change anything... FkpCascais (talk) 00:54, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

Please stop derailing the discussion with these silly stories and taking us to square one. This has already been discussed in the previous discussion. [6] Regardless of his statements he is still of Bosniak descent which is just as noteworthy of being included in the lede as Serbian is. Your personal life and exaggerated examples are irrelevant to this discussion. -- ◅PRODUCER _(TALK) 01:27, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

@PRODUCER, your proposal comes from a previous discussion, but all participants failed to see that the agreed was against an important policy on that exact issue. Now, regarding Kusturica, openly and insistently declaring himself as Serbian is not the same as having a Bosniak nany. If it wasn´t him saying it, we could eventually discuss, but with him being clear, we have nothing to discuss, and your "Bosniak descent" is basically a curiosity and completely irrelevant to the subject he is notable for. I really don´t care that much on this and he is not even close to be one of my favourite filmmakers, but it is interesting to see how much you care to have it in the lead, instead of, for exemple expanding and improving the article, or adding that info in the right section. Basically, all you want is to go straight to "de-label" him as Serbian, and not anywhere else but in the lead, where you know it will have most impact, right? I wasn´t born yesterday... FkpCascais (talk) 03:09, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

This is not my proposal this is me continuing, as Fainites put it, "a previously agreed and established version". Again you accuse me of trying to ""de-label" him as Serbian" or as you previously put it "forcebly insist on him as Bosniak": I have not removed Serbian from the lede, but you have removed "of Bosniak descent". I have not added him to the Bosniaks infobox, but you have added him in the Serbs of Bosnia and Herzegovina infobox. Then you manipulate WP:OPENPARA to apply to his Bosniak ethnicity but not his Serbian ethnicity. You wish to tell a partial side of his ethnicity, the side you favour, and want to omit the other. Given that he declares a ethnicity that is different from his descent makes his descent noteworthy, especially when we're discussing someone from former Yugoslavia, and given the ethnic controversy of his most popular film in numerous high profile publications, as cited above, makes it relevant to the subject's notability. -- ◅PRODUCER _(TALK) 09:54, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

Please stop poking. It is absolutely obvious from the edit history that PRODUCER was restoring an agreed and established version so please stop personalising the discussion and frightening off those who want to have a civilised discussion. What is obvious is that an awful lot of people in the Balkans have considered and still consider ethnicity to be of absolute prime importance. Presumably that's why it gets warred and argued over. Speaking as a representative of one of the worlds most mongrel races (hooray for mongrels!), I am unconvinced that people can just select an ethnicity. I was hoping that if we just gave his nationality or citizenship in the lead rather than ethnicity, then the rest could be in the article. If we say "Serb" then we say "of Bosniak descent" because if we are describing ethnicity that's what he is. If we are saying Serbian as in Serbian nationality we link to Serbia the state, not "Serbs".Fainites ^barleyscribs 14:36, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

I oppose that. On every single ethnic Serb biography it is said that he/she is a Serbian writer, actor, historian etc. not a Serb writer, actor, historian etc. Simply adding Serbian with a hidden wikilink to Serbia is not sufficient enough. -- ◅PRODUCER _(TALK) 17:39, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

Fainites is right, people wrongly link nationality to ethnicity. Bad habbit. Ethnicity has no place in lead, and there are no doubts that he is Serbian filmmaker. Producer, sorry, but it is perfectly enough and correct for lead purposes. FkpCascais (talk) 17:53, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

Given your history in wanting to display him as a purely Serb director in the Serbs of Bosnia Herzegovina infobox it's hard to believe that you wish to use "Serbian" to denote nationality. Again I point out that all ethnic Serb biographies say "Blank is a Serbian writer, actor, historian etc." not a "Blank is a Serb writer, actor, historian etc." so Fainites' suggestion that "If we say "Serb" [...] we are describing ethnicity. If we are saying Serbian as in Serbian nationality we link to Serbia the state, not "Serbs"" is not true because Serbian is used to denote ethnicity in the biographies not Serb. Simply adding Serbian with a hidden wikilink to Serbia is not sufficient enough. -- ◅PRODUCER _(TALK) 18:19, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

Well it was only an idea based on WP:OPENPARA which puts nationality first and includes ethnicity only if it's relevant to his notability. His nationality is apparently Serbian. The question is - is his ethnicity sufficiently relevant to notability to include in the lead rather than simply in the article.Fainites ^barleyscribs 18:25, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

Publications feel the need to mention his ethnicity so why should it be ignored here? In addition, as I've previously mentioned, his most popular film has an ethnic dimension to it and has caused controversy both in and outside of former Yugoslavia making it more relevant to his notability. - P R O D U C E R

Yeah the controversy section is quite big - but he is notable for his work. Is that aspect related to being of Bosniak descent?Fainites ^barleyscribs 20:34, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

He filmed a lot about Gipsy community in Serbia ironizing and critisizing trough them the entire society. That was earlier, nowadays he abandoned Gipsies and has been filming mostly in Serbia, about ordinary people, including one moovie about Maradona´s visit to Serbia. I basically don´t recall any "Bosniak" theme in any of his moovies, possibly in the earliest ones, but than he usually mixed many ethnicities in the moovies as parody of the situation in Yugoslavia. So, I´m not sure what was Producer meaning... FkpCascais (talk) 20:42, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

We are discussing ethnicity as a whole. So why are you isolating it just to his Bosniak descent? The controversy section partly stems from his work and is about how people of different ethnicities are portrayed. It is also the tip of the iceberg when considering all the high profile figures (Andre Glucksman, Bernard Henry-Levy and Peter Handke) and high profile publications (Le Monde, Liberation, Journal du dimanche, Suddeutsche Zeitung, the Independent, the Guardian, El Pais, Corriere de la Sera, and The New Yorker.) that are not included. In addition to that, publications mention both his Serbian declaration and his Bosniak descent. Evidently this is significant or otherwise it would not be mentioned.(Fkp don't do sinebots work.) -- ◅PRODUCER _(TALK) 23:12, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

Yes, you´re right, he is a Serbian filmmaker... with many descents... (one more reason not to include his ethnic background it in the lead). PS: Next time sign your posts. FkpCascais (talk) 23:35, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

I've asked for a bit of 3rd party input here on policy interpretation.Fainites ^barleyscribs 18:36, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

It's mentioned several times throughout the article that he came from a Bosnian Muslim family. I know he's converted to orthodox christianity and has stated his family was secular growing up, but does that discount his ethnic background? An Irishman that converts to the Anglican church doesn't become an Englishman. That being said, I know ethnic and national backgrounds gets tricky for Serbs, Croats, and Bosniaks in the former Yugoslavia just like it is for ethnic Russians from Ukraine. 174.253.97.152 (talk) 04:54, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

'Bosnian Serb'

In the opening paragraph, it states that Kusturica is 'Bosnian Serb', that redirects to the 'Serbs of Bosnia and Herzegovina' article, which defines it as 'Serbs inhabiting Bosnia and Herzegovina'. Kusturica is of Bosnian Serb origin, but is situated in Serbia and has Serbian citizenship. Editing the paragraph into clearer form. 77.46.229.74 (talk) 16:56, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

Operas info

Could someone include info on Kusturica's operas? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.2.243.207 (talk) 16:05, 31 March 2013 (UTC)

"Manijak" receiving a television ban due to visual allusions to the Agrokomerc Affair

The song of the video is sang from the point of a rapist. I.e. The maniac of the title. Which is short for sex maniac.

He is singing a love letter to his future victim. Chorus goes something like "Baby, baby, who would not, you, so young, press against (himself)".

Any vague allusions to Agrokomerc would be from the scene in which the rapist leaves a box of cookies on a park bench, which are noticed by a young girl in a short skirt who bends over to pick them up. At which point the rapist, played by Zabranjeno Pusenje frontman Nenad Jankovic, jumps from behind the bush, grabs her from behind by the hips, presses his pelvis to her behind and thrusts it forward. Cut to girls face acting surprised and amazed. Cut to her hand crumpling the box of cookies. So please, do provide the source that the video was banned for displaying a box of cookies, and not for displaying RAPE AS ENJOYABLE. I'd really like to read that source.

As for the user Piguy101 removing my "citation needed" request "because it did not appear constructive" - well, that says more about him than about the request for the source of some clearly point of view made up story.--85.92.230.183 (talk) 19:11, 14 August 2014 (UTC)

Also posted on my talkpage: I removed the citation needed template because it looked like you were trying to discuss the article's subject in the article itself. After a brief Internet search, maybe we should remove the entire sentence because I cannot seem to find any sources. Nevertheless, I have added an unsourced section tag at the top of the heading. Piguy101 (talk) 19:47, 14 August 2014 (UTC)

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Ethnic identity doesn't belong to WP:LEAD & MOS:OPENPARABIO

@Sadko: these characters have complex personalities, Gundulić, Dizdar, Andrić, Selimović, Kusturica, Štulić, not to mention tumultuous and complex reality of the circumstances in which they lived/living and worked/working. Their artistic expression stem from it. Just take aforementioned few, they themselves all had problem and struggled with their identity, while their surroundings too had and still have problem with their identity. Kusturica at times used to declare himself Sarajevan, Bosnian, Yugoslav, Serbian, atheist, Orthodox Christian, list goes and on and on, and I would not be surprised if this man, in some new fateful metamorphosis, at the very end of his life, in his final moments, decides to "return" home to Sarajevo and invite reis ul-ulema/Grand mufti to absolve him of the sins of his sinful life. But for the history, he is Yugoslavian filmmaker, he was using resources of all republic's funds, all Yugoslav production companies were taking part in his film-making and productions. He declare himself Serb, his own family and offspring are probably Serbs as well, all of his Kusturica immediate ancestors and side-branches were/are Muslims and/or Bosniaks. He is citizen of Bosnia and Herzegovina and Serbia, while, I believe, he is also in possession of French passport too, and currently resides in Moscow, Russia. So, at the end of the day, article WP:LEAD / MOS:OPENPARABIO should be neutral, and his complex relation with his own identity should be subtly dealt with in existing section "Life". Don't be Shokatz ;-) take your firm and correct stand and your sound arguments expressed earlier in similar case against Shokatz's persistent reality distortion and abuse of project policies and guidelines, and apply it everywhere where circumstances may demands it - and here we have another such a case; case where we know complexity behind reality, and we know that easiest way to resolve it on the pages of Wikipedia project would be to adopt more neutral approach.--౪ Santa ౪^99° 15:56, 25 September 2019 (UTC)

@Santasa99: Far from it. I am well aware how complex can it be to neutrally write about a number of notable people from the Balkans, but there is no doubt about Kusturica, like there is for Skender Kulenović or Ruđer Bošković. Your premise, although in good faith, is simply based on wrong information and therefore can not be correct. Here is why: 1) Kusturica declared himself a Serb and of Serb origin in his youth, he just became more vocal about it with the fall of YU (I wonder why). 2) He claims that his father shared the same identity. 3) Kusturica is not a BiH citizen. That is not correct. He holds dual Serbian-French citizenship. 4) He is not based in Moscow, but in Drvengrad (with his family). Before that, he lived in Belgrade, if I am not wrong. 5) Most of his movies have represented Republic of Serbia and are in Serbian language. His future project will deal with Serbian history (Jasenovac and so on). 6) Just based on all this information alone, we can come up to a conclusion that there is no doubt that Kustu is a Serbian filmmaker, per MOS: Lead. 6.1) I have double checked all of this info over the web. 7) If you ask for my opinion, I doubt that he will ever make another change (he is deep in Christian Orthodox theology, or at least in the public), but I agree with you that he has a tendency of changing and redefining himself. My guess is that at one point in his life he had, how to call it, a choice, between either Serb/Serbian or Muslim/Bosniak culture. He chose the one which he considered to be richer. 8) Even if I wanted to (and I can sometimes be a stubborn man, but not that Shokarz sort of blindness), I will hardly be able to get down to that level of consciousness. Cheers and thank you! Sadko (talk) 23:14, 25 September 2019 (UTC)

You are doing exactly the same thing editor "S" was doing in the cases of Gundulić and Bukovac. I didn't refer to his or your eventual stubbornness, I was referring to his and now your attempt to push person's ethnic identity into the lead, where it doesn't belong. And instead of trying to be consistent to your earlier sound position and argumentation which you expressed in those cases, you spent entire pretty big paragraph doing exactly the same thing editor "S" was doing back there - namely, you are trying to prove and to convince me how subject of this article is of particular ethnicity (Serb), and how now suddenly ethnicity belong to the lead paragraph. It doesn't. His ethnic identity, Kusturica the Serb, belongs to section dealing with his life, family and identity. Kusturica the filmmaker is Yugoslav, as he was using production resources of a nation which existed long enough for him to be identified with it as artist, with all the complex circumstances surrounding it.--౪ Santa ౪^99° 01:01, 26 September 2019 (UTC)

No, no and no. It is not about ethnicity, that was just one of the things mentioned. I am not pushing a POV here (and can not see how in the world calling Kusturica a Serbian director can be a POV), but explaining why I think this way. If Kusturica is a Serbian citizen (and that he is), representing the state of Serbia and resides in Serbia for 20+ years (and from the split of Serbia and Montenegro) and plus his Serbness is reflected in his work, and it is (which is notable for the lead), I can't see any arguments to call him a Yugoslav (anachronism). Using the same way of thinking, Zdravko Čolić could/should be called only Yugoslav. We can, for example, writer that Ivo Andrić was a Yugoslav writer (who also declared himself a Serbs and part of Serbian culture/literature). Gundulić or Bukovac never lived in a state called Croatia and I will not go to their origins, it's not the merit here nor important. No reasonable links can be made, please. Sadko (talk) 01:18, 26 September 2019 (UTC)

You are doing it again, writing in circles just like "S". He's ethnicity is not notable for the lead, unless you were selling hot air to ANI you know this, since you were citing guidelines there correctly (we should let film critics have their say on "Serbness" of his art and "richness" of cultures to anthropologists). However, if you are claiming that "Serbian" in the lead does not refer to his ethnicity but to citizenship instead, why is then his Bosnia and Herzegovina citizenship omitted, not to mention France? Further, he's main residence for the last 10+ years is Moscow, in Russia, he's residence address in his newest Bosnian passport is now changed from Sarajevo to Višegrad - so, he's dual national of Serbia and Bosnia, again, not to mention he's citizen of France too. (By the way, Yugoslavia is recent history for much of its (former) population, and it's not anachronism for someone who was born and lived most or at least half of his/her life in that country.) Even if we turn blind eye on the fact that he's dual national, who is to say which should be more important for encyclopaedia, and who is going to measure how long he spend in each residence, and chose one over the other. By the way Ćolić is Yugoslav, just like Andrić, Selimović, Dizdar, Štulić, and many others, at least they were in English Wikipedia last time I checked.--౪ Santa ౪^99° 01:49, 26 September 2019 (UTC)

There should be no circles, this case-study is not too complicated and plus, the man is alive and well and can speak for himself (which is also notable in a way, if there are doubts). Kusturica holds no BiH passport. No sources confim this. I searched - a lot. He is living in modern-day Serbia from 1989, about half of his life. He stated that he did not return and has no plans to return to Sarajevo. Futhermore, we are lacking recent sources for the French citizenship as well. And no, he does not resides in Moscow (that information is incorrect and not per any source available),^[1] but in Drvengrad and (less so) Andrićgrad. This information can be found on the official website (kustu). The reason for Kusturica being called a Serbian filmmaker are: citizenship, place of residence, the fact that his movies are Serbian and in Serbian (official language), his personal choice and constant speaking/writing about Serbs/Serbdom, which is notable for the lead in the same way that Lepa Brena is Yugoslav because she stated so (which is in a citation), and this goes for Čolić too. Why should a well-known Serbian nationalist like Kusturica be an exception, if we also know for a fact that he is a Serbian citizen producing Serbian movies? This is a very clear case, comparisons simply can not be made with a 17th century man like Gundulić. Editor SH was "going per sources" which is ludicrous, there is a huge difference. If I wanted to (and I will not), I could claim that modern sources and medias largely credit Kusturica as Serbian filmmaker. That is off the point... P.S: Not all of those people are Yugoslav only in the lead. Sadko (talk) 02:45, 26 September 2019 (UTC)

^ "Kusturica: Ne želim rusko državljanstvo". www.novosti.rs (in Serbian (Latin script)). Retrieved 2019-09-26.

[1] "Kusturica: Ne želim rusko državljanstvo". www.novosti.rs (in Serbian (Latin script)). Retrieved 2019-09-26.

[1]