Talk:Edward Bernays/Archives/2012

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I've got a problem with this...

"And history itself showed the flaw in Bernays's claim that 'manipulation of the masses' is natural and necessary in a democratic society. The fascist rise to power in Germany demonstrated that propaganda could be used to subvert democracy as easily as it could be used to 'resolve conflict.'"

I haven't taken it out yet, but I wanted to get some input.

I'm quite sure de Tocqueville would agree that "manipulation of the masses" is indeed "natural and necessary" in a democracy. But just because another type of manipulation (propaganda, not public relations) facilitated German Nazism doesn't mean that public relations is no less needed or effective in democracies.

It's like saying that democracies shouldn't maintain armies because some other countries have military takeovers.

Also, when the article names the "Toxic Sludge" book as its source, what does that mean? Is it verbatim, or just inspired? It seems like a very POV book to me, if its author's other contributions are any guide.

--Dablaze 01:13, Sep 3, 2004 (UTC)

Concerning "propaganda not public relations." Propaganda is public relations, according to Bernays himself. It's just a cute he came up with after the Germans made 'propaganda' less than popular. 98.184.141.102 (talk) 23:26, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

So far I have only seen thinkers of the past and present state "Public relations is necessary for the functioning of a democratic society". I have yet to see a single sentence provided after these statements to back up the claim. Perhaps, someone could post some material on Bernay's thoughts on why it is a necessary process?

More source material: A search at Npr.Org yields these (the first one is the URL in the article):

I mention this largely bcz while the article does briefly mention the "bacon and eggs" story that the NPR teaser i heard does, none of the article's linking articles sound likely to include it. IMO it almost certainly will turn out to be a facet of the development of American culture (there's at least one place in Rome that advertises "American breakfast" in the window!) worth documenting, with his name, but beyond the context of Bernays per se.
-Jerzy (t) 13:17, 2005 Apr 29 (UTC)

Authenticity check: A search reveals that the phrase "regarded by many" appears in the text. Is the phrase a symptom of a dubious statement? Could a source be quoted instead? Perhaps the "many" could be identified? Might text be edited to more genuinely reflect specific facts?

Wetman

From the BBC documentary Century of the Self

Freud - Civilization and it's Discontents attacked the idea that civilization was an expression of human progress. He argued it was constructed to control the dangerous animal forces inside human beings. What was implicit in his argument was the ideal of individual freedom which was at the heart of democracy was impossible. Human beings could never be allowed to truly express themselves because it was too dangerous. They must always be controlled and thus always be discontent.

"Both Bernays and (Walter) Lippman's concept of managing the masses takes the idea of democracy and turns it into giving people some kind of feel good medication that will respond to an immediate pain or yearning but will not alter the objective circumstances one iota. The idea of democracy was about changing the relations of power that had governed the worlds for so long. Bernays' idea was one of maintaining the relations of power, even if it meant one needed to stimulate the psychological lives of the public, he felt it was neccessary. If you can keep stimulating the irrational self then leadership can basically keep on doing what it wants to do." -Stewart Euwen PR Historian, Century of the Self

Except for the last sentence abuse of power is not implicit. However, it is my supposition "Those in positions of power inevitably abuse their power because it's inherent in controlling the masses which is what power comes from. It's an abuse because it goes against the ideal of individual freedom." which I think is what anyone with a negtive attitude towards Bernays and the science of controlling the behavior of the masses has a problem with. Pointing back to Freud, social control systems is what enabled humans to evolve. Keep in mind Freud was observing the state of the world (and wars) during the first half of the 20th century (WWI&WWII) and was a member (if I recall correctly) of the national socialist party.

--- 20th Century? This article seems myopic--Public Relations is not a 20th Century invention. During the Roman Empire, it was commonplace for Generals and eventually Emperors to use spectacular Triumphs (marches) to show their might and victory.

What is new is the media, that's all.

moral dilemma

And where is the moral dilemma? what more of a utopian world could be asked for that a system geared at an elite, rather that stealing loaves of bread from its people, actually aiming to fulfill their every whim and urge? this strategy takes the irrational animal aspect of human nature (which, lets face it, informs far more choices then the intellect for the average person) and turns it into an economic engine. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wikimike2020 (talk • contribs) 17:09, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

Something new to be mentioned here?

Austerlitz -- 88.72.29.150 12:18, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

from German wikipedia: Joseph Goebbels benutzte Bernays Buch „Crystallizing Public Opinion“, um die antijüdische Propaganda im faschistischen Deutschland aufzubauen. Bernays, selbst – wie auch sein Onkel Sigmund Freud – Jude, wurde dieser Fakt von Karl von Wiegand, einem Reporter der US-amerikanischen Hearst-Zeitung in Deutschland mitgeteilt, welcher Goebbels besucht hatte und mit ihm einen Rundgang in dessen Bibliothek unternommen hatte. Bernays selbst verschwieg diesen Fakt in den 1930er und 1940er Jahren, äußerte sich aber in seiner 1965 erschienenen Autobiographie wie folgt: „… I knew that any human activity can be used for social purposes or misused for antisocial ones. Obviously the attack on the Jews of Germany was no emotional outburst of the Nazis, but a deliberate, planned campaign. – Ich wusste, dass jede menschliche Aktivität für soziale Zwecke benutzt oder antisoziale missbraucht werden kann. Offenbar war die Attacke gegen die Juden Deutschlands kein emotionaler Ausbruch der Nazis, sondern eine wohlüberlegte, geplante Kampagne.“ (zitiert von Tye, S. 111)

Austerlitz -- 88.72.29.150 12:24, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

What kind of politics has he done during WW II? Has he been counsel of some president? Did he meet Jan Karski?

Austerlitz -- 88.72.13.127 09:54, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

(John Price Jones: [4], [5]; maybe that is the guy working at CPI.)

Austerlitz -- 88.72.1.244 15:48, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Bernays is probably the best, but well adopted, misunderstanding in USA, since Freud himself and Washington

But Bernays is, on the surface, more influential than Freud and Washington too, plus Columbus.


More detailed on his manipulation

I want to add more details on his manipulation on the American audience during the Cold war. Sources can be found here. http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3081752751625862941

[6], [7], [8], [9], [10], History is a weapon, [11], [12], [13], [14], 1913 Juli 13 - Aug. 11 F. ist mit seiner Frau Martha, seiner Schwägerin Minna und seiner Tochter Anna in Marienbad (Villa "Taube" "Turba") zur Kur. Seine Tochter Sophie besucht gemeinsam mit ihrem Mann ihre Eltern. Auch Max Eitingon kommt für einen Tag. -F. lernt Ferenczis Mutter Rosa kennen. - Anna Freud verliebt sich in Edward Bernays, der aus Amerika gekommen war, und trägt sich mit Heiratsgedanken., [15] The mother of Edward Bernays was Freud's sister Anna.

Austerlitz -- 88.72.31.130 (talk) 12:30, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Is the full text not to be found?

The full text of Crystallizing Public Opinion (1923) Would be really beautiful.

Austerlitz -- 88.72.27.216 (talk) 18:24, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

The full text can be found here: http://www.scribd.com/doc/5369599/Crystallizing-Public-Opinion-Edward-Bernays Hccu 2012 (talk) 16:55, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

Link to be inserted where?

Austerlitz -- 88.75.69.185 (talk) 09:04, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
I've added it as a footnote for "Campaigns". --George100 (talk) 11:12, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
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