Talk:Doolough Tragedy

Occurred in 1849, not 1847

The Doolough tragedy occurred in 1849, not 1847. My sources are The Famine in Mayo: A portrait from contemporary sources 1845-1850 (A Mayo County Library Publication) and the memorial at the site itself. I can send a photo should you require confirmation. Pkgoode (talk) 08:12, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

I have redrafted much of the body of this entry as it read previosuly - the wrong date was given and there appears to be no contemporary evidence to support its contents. What I have written is based on the information found on these two websites:-

www.geocities.com/lavelle95608/famine.pdf

and

www.afri.ie/pdf/famine_walk_2008.pdf (page 7).

Ned

About this event

What is truly astonishing about this event is how little it was reported and the absence, seemingly, of any repercussions befalling the officials involved. I can only think this was due to the level of suffering experienced by so many people at the time - this event which shocks us today seemed little out the ordinary then.

The officials who stayed at Delphi had no good reason, I'm sure, for not returning to Louisburgh for the inspection.  My guess is from Delphi they returned to Westport - had they returned via Louisburgh it would have put only few extra miles on their homeward journey.

One of the officials was called Captain Primrose - he was a temporary inspector for the Westport Poor Law Union which covered Louisburgh. In a report he drafted on the 7th February, 1849 he wrote:-

No application for relief has been granted by the Vice-Guardians, without a most careful scrutiny into the circumstances of each case : as a proof, I may adduce that during the last six weeks the number of applicants amounted to 11,430, of whom 6362 were either rejected or did not appear, and the remainder either placed on the out-door lists or in list for admission to the workhouse. In many of the latter cases, the house was applied as a test of destitution, the efficacy of which will be seen from the fact that out of 1640 cases 614 never came to it at all, and very many after a residence of a few days, and in some instances a single day, demanded their discharge.

Talk about being hard hearted! Poor Law officials were terrified of anyone receiving relief unless they were at death's door. Forcing scores of starving wretches to walk needless miles in awful conditions might have been instigated as a "test of destitution" - if they weren't prepared to do it they weren't destitute!

It is also worth observing that the other official the Mayo Constitution reports as having gone to stay at Delphi Lodge, "Colonel Hogrove", seems later in life to have been a prison governor. A Wesport Poor Law Union report printed in a volume of the Parlimentary Papers in 1849 is signed by FRANCIS HOGREVE - without a military title - without much doubt this must be the "Colonel Hogrove" referred to in the Mayo Constitution. In a Parliamentary Paper published in 1857 a FRANCIS HOGREVE is indicated as being the prison governor of Philipstown prison. So from overseeing the work of a workhouse Francis Hogreve went on to overseeing the work of a prison. Did he and the authorities at the time see the inmates of both institutions as being roughly of the same stamp? Ned of the Hills (talk) 19:58, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

The Westport Poor Law Union minutes books

On the 8th June, 2011 I looked at the Westport Poor Law Union minutes books held by the National Library of Ireland manuscript section Kildare, Street Dublin.

There are six volumes:- reference MSS 12,607 – 12,612 (half the volumes appear to be duplicates of the other three – the duplicates are easier to read as they are fairer copies)

I found no specific mention of the Doolough tragedy – but I thought it was significant that:-

a) the relieving officer for Lousiburgh was dismissed from his post on the 12th May 1849. His name was Michael Carroll.

This was mentioned in MS 12611 pages 114 and 118

No reason was given for his dismissal – was it connected with the Doolough tragedy? An early minute (on 14th April I think) notes he was not sending in his returns and would be fined £2 if he continued not to do so. He was not, however, (if I recall correctly) alone in this failure.

and

b) 28th March MS 12611 page 78

a minute reads:

The relieving officers will give notice to paupers on Outdoor Releif Lists in the undermentioned electoral division to attend at the workhouse on the following days for the purpose of investigations and inform them at the next distribution of meal that any persons who do not attend will be cancelled from the list.

Kilmaclesser Friday 30th March, Islandeady Saturday 31st March, Kilmeena Thursday 5th April, Aughagower Friday 6th April.

Ballycroy Friday 6th April, Achill Saturday 7th April. The investigations will take place in the district.

Louisburgh is not on the list but the minute does indicate that at the time of the Doolough Tragedy those in receipt of outdoor relief were being vetted, and if they lived some distance from the Westport workhouse they were being vetted locally. The minute also indicates how important it was for them to attend such “investigations”.

The Louisburgh "investigation" might have been arranged at short notice perhaps? - to fit in with a jaunt to Delphi officials of the Board of Guardians were undertaking? The arrangements fell through and the relieving officer got the blame for it. This is just my speculation. Though I'm writing these words in June in Dublin hail is hitting the window pane. The weather in late March in west Mayo could have been very bleak indeed.

Ned 86.44.195.140 (talk) 07:44, 9 June 2011 (UTC) 86.41.34.59 (talk) 05:53, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

The numbers involved

I was in the National Library again on the 20th June looking once more at the Westport Poor Law Union minute book. MS 12611 . Page 92 indicated that O'Carroll was in charge of District II. On other pages there were figures receiving releif in that district which was presumably Louisbourgh.

24th March: 895 - including their dependants 2,539

7th April: 1026 - including their dependants 2,713

If not only those on the releif list but also their dependants had to present themselves at Delphi then over 2000 must have walked that road

Ned 217.155.193.205 (talk) 08:54, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

"Annals of the Irish Famine" by Asenath Nicholson

On the 17th April 1849 the author of the above work seems to have made a journey to Delphi from Louisburgh - or maybe made a journey at least part way. She speaks of going "into the Killary mountains" which suggests she must have journeyed at least part way along the road to Delphi from Louisburgh.

Although she mentions the terrible plight of the people: "This day I saw enough and my heart was sick, sick." - she does not make any reference to what is now known as the "DooLough Tragedy". Accompanying her was a local docter (one wonders if he might have been the "ratepayer" who wrote to the "Mayo Constitution." [see blow] ) she makes a point of mentioning that the doctor on their return to Lousiburgh reported to the priest on the "cuelty of the relieving officer".

Ned. 217.155.193.205 (talk) 09:30, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

Reportedly, Asenath Hatch Nicholson was a vegan way back then in the 1830s. MaynardClark (talk) 01:29, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

"The "Ratepayers" letters to the "Mayo Constitution"

TO THE EDITOR OF THE MAYO CONSTITUTION. (10-4-1849) Louisburgh, April 5th, 1849.

Sir - On last Friday, 30th ult., Colonel Hogrove, one of the vice guardians of Westport union, and Captain Primrose, the poor law inspector, arrived here on that morning for the purpose of holding an inspection on the paupers who were receiving outdoor relief in this part of the union, but, from some cause or other, they did not, but started off immediately for Delphi Lodge. In a short time after, the relieving officer, ordered the poor creatures forthwith to follow him to Delphi Lodge, as he would have them inspected early on the following morning, Saturday, 31st; and in obedience of this humane order, hundreds of these unfortunate living skeletons, men, women and children, might have been seen struggling through the mountain passes and roads for the appointed place. The inspection took place in the morning, and I have been told that nothing could equal the horrible appearance of those truly unfortunate creatures, some of them without a morsel to eat, and others exhausted from fatigue, having travelled upwards of 16 miles to attend the inspection. I have now the melancholy duty of informing you and the public, that a woman named Dalton, from Wastelands, six miles to the West of this town, her son and daughter, were all found dead on the road side, on the morning after the inspection, midway between this town and Delphi: and about one mile nearer to this town, two men were found dead - in all, five. The bodies of these ill-fated creatures lay exposed on the road side for three or four days and nights, for the dogs and ravens to feed upon, until some charitable person had them buried in a turf hole at the road side. I am, Sir, your obedient servant, A RATEPAYER.

TO THE EDITOR OF THE MAYO CONSTITUTION (17-5-1849) Louisburgh, April 13th, 1849.

Sir - I have this day the melancholy duty of informing you that two more miserable creatures were found on the mountain passes dead - in all 7, and I am confidently informed that 9 or 10 more have never reached their homes, and several of those that did, were so fatigued with cold and hunger that they in a short time ceased to live. I tell Colonel Hogrove, and Captain Primrose that the relieving officer ordered the poor creatures to follow them to Delphi, in order that they might be inspected at 7 o’clock on the morning of the 31st, at that lodge, and I challenge them to contradict what I state; further that the cause of their not stopping at Louisburgh was, that the relieving officer had not his books ready and it was at the court-house the following order was given - all persons not attending at 7 or 8 o’clock in the morning, at Delphi, would be struck off the relief; the people did attend, but the relieving officer did not until 12 o’clock. I now think it right to inform you that a strictly private inquest was held by Mr. Coroner Burke, aided and assisted by a member of his family. Doctor Burke, who is the poorhouse doctor, and the jury returned the following verdict, after a post mortem examination on the bodies of two of them:- “Died from starvation and cold,” when instead of providing coffins for those creatures, the bodies were again thrown into a mountain slough, with a few sods thrown over them immediately after. The Coroner and his staff proceeded to Delphi Lodge, and on the following day returned and held another inquest; like verdict was returned, when the Coroner and doctor returned to their mansions, leaving three more unfortunate creatures at the road side, with scarce a covering of sods upon them. Thank God all are not so hardened as the above, for that excellent and humane clergyman. I mean the Rev. Thomas O’Dowd, the Catholic Curate, gave five coffins to Mr. Walshe, who, to his credit be it said, both himself and his men had all the bodies taken out of the sloughs on the 12th instant, and placed in coffins, and had them respectably interred in a burial place. In my last, I stated that the poor had not to travel more than 10 or 15 miles, I now tell you that the residence of some of those found dead was at least 28 miles from Delphi - the same distance back. I am, Sir, Your obedient servant, A RATEPAYER.

I omitted giving you the names of the persons found dead – Catherine Dillon, Patt Dillon and Honor Dillon, mother, son and daughter, living two-and-a-half miles from this town. Catherine Grady and Mary McHale of Wastelands, 10 miles from this; James Flynn of Rinnacully, 13 miles; so that instead of receiving their rations of the 30th - the day they expected it – in this town, they had to proceed on to Delphi Lodge, without a morsel to eat, a distance of at least fourteen miles.

This information was extracted from http://www.mayolibrary.ie/media/Exhibitions/Famine/FamineCombined.pdf

Ned 217.155.193.205 (talk) 09:38, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

James Berry

The main source of this page comes from the collection of James Berry's stories Tales of the West of Ireland. I would suggest making a link to his biography page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.16.7.15 (talk) 11:57, 7 January 2014 (UTC)

Merge with Doo Lough (Mayo)

The following discussion is closed and will soon be archived.

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I think this article should be merged with Doo Lough. They are both quite small, and I think having one more substantial article would be better. Britishfinance (talk) 12:08, 13 October 2019 (UTC)

• Opppose - I don't agree myself. While "it's short" is one of the four common WP:MERGEREASONS, it typically applies if there is no reasonable prospect of either article being expanded. And I'd suggest that either could be significantly expanded in time. And, in terms of the other three reasons (overlap/context/duplicate), while there is some interaction/intersection between the two articles, it is no more than might otherwise be expected by WP:SUMMARYSTYLE guidelines. (For example, a reader could happily read about the famine tragedy without even really understanding where the lough is, its hydrology, what fish swim in it, etc.) I'm just not seeing it myself... Guliolopez (talk) 16:11, 13 October 2019 (UTC)

@Guliolopez: I agree with your position in theory, but in practice, the Doolough Tragedy article is over a decade-old and is still small. Ultimately, most will come to the tragedy article via the Doo Lough (Mayo) article (e.g. tourists driving by the memorial etc.), so it has to be mentioned there anyway. Hence my suggestion. Britishfinance (talk) 17:17, 13 October 2019 (UTC)

Hiya. Per WP:MERGEREASON, "Merging should be avoided if [..] the separate topics could be expanded into longer standalone (but cross-linked) articles [..and/or..] the topics are discrete subjects warranting their own articles, even though they might be short". Both apply here. The topics are discrete (one is a lake, the other a significant event that happened near the lake). And the topics warrant their own articles (even though they might be short). Agree to disagree here. Can't support a merge. Guliolopez (talk) 17:23, 13 October 2019 (UTC)

• Oppose The tragedy has in fact nothing to do with the lake itself. No need to hide this. The Banner talk 18:27, 13 October 2019 (UTC)

I have removed the merge tag. It's been over a month, and there doesn't appear to be any support/consensus to merge these two articles. Guliolopez (talk) 02:32, 17 November 2019 (UTC)