Talk:Dizzy Gillespie/Archive 1

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Spoken article

A spoken article may be a good idea, but what is hard to pronounce about his name? yEvb0 14:49, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Name pronunciation

I've heard people unsure over whether his last name is "ghi-LES-pee" (like giddy) or "jih-LES-pee." (If anyone's unsure, it's the former.) If anyone else notices that problem, maybe it'd be a good idea to include a pronunciation key for his name? --JoeTrumpet 20:56, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Gillespie's pouch

I can't find any reference to "Gillespie's pouch" which doesn't originate from this article - can anyone provide a source? The story about the trumpet bending is given in an anthology of jazz writing I have, I'll look up the exact details. I always thought it was to project the sound upwards, but according to DG himself it was the alteration in the tone which made him keep it. --  ajn (talk) 09:25, 8 September 2005 (UTC)

  • I can't find another instance of "Gillespie's pouch" that isn't a derivative of this article. Therefore the safe conclusion is that it is only conjecture, and as such I will remove the reference. If anyone can find any independent documentation of this claim, then by all means the reference can be reinstated. --Cholmes75 19:03, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Who employed whom?

The line, "Dizzy was soon being excoriated for his adventurous solos by his employee" doesn't sound right. I kind of assume that Diz was the empoyeE and it was his employeR that excoriated him, but I might be misunderstanding the arrangement. Unless I hear different, I'll change the 'e' to an 'r'. Matt Deres 00:25, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

Another point: my understanding was that though Calloway didn't appreciate Gillespie's avantgarde music, the flashpoint for his firing was an incident involving a spitball onstage. ND 06:32, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

I had the once in a lifetime privilege of meeting Dizzy Gillespie here in Tempe, Arizona - the day after he played Gammage Theater with Billy Eckstine and the Count Basie Orchestra - on October 30, 1989 and, among other tales he spoke of, he told me about the commotion behind leaving Cab's orchestra. If what he said then was true, this is how he left Cab Calloway:

In November, 1941, Cab's orchestra was playing an engagement and in the middle of a number, someone from the band had thrown a spitball that landed on stage right beside Calloway. Well, Dizzy had gotten "all kinds of hell" from Cab during his stay in the band - not only for his playing, but his general antics on and off the stage - so Cab immediately made Dizzy his first suspect.

Backstage, Cab stormed up to Dizzy and chewed Dizzy out something fierce despite Dizzy's denials - then turned tail and stormed back off. Well, Dizzy let his temper get the best of him, took out a pocket knife and ran after Calloway. Dizzy had caught up to Cab and was on the downswing with the blade when bassist Milt Hinton caught his wrist - but not before "nicking" the back of Cab's neck.

Dizzy was fired then and there and the rest is history - except for the question of exactly who threw the spitball that night. According to Dizzy, the man who kept him from stabbing Calloway that night, Milt Hinton, finally "fessed up 20-some years later" to throwing that spitball. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.225.221.41 (talk) 13:09, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

gaelic??

I don't really understand where this article is coming from, but it alleges that Dizzy Gillespie spoke Scots Gaelic? Anyone?? [1] Dan Carkner 16:07, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

This article quotes another article. [2] The full quote from there is:
"Dizzy used to tell me tales of how the blacks near his home in Alabama and in the Carolinas had once spoken exclusively in Scots Gaelic. He spoke of his love for Scotland. He'd often tell me to get over to Scotland because the people were so friendly and the love of the music so warm."
This alleges only that at some previous time blacks near his home spoke Scots Gaelic. Even though it's possible that this could have included his family or himself, the article doesn't explicitly state it. -LambaJan 03:23, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
Oh, god, THIS guy. I know nothing about the source cited there (Willie Ruff played with Gillespie in 1971 but I'm not too impressed by his hearsay evidence); Cassidy however is a fruitcake obsessed with pseudo-etymology whom I've encountered a few times before (including in the pages of a jazz journal that should have known better). There's a demolition job on that piece you cite at Language Log: http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/003326.html -- ND 05:45, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
Ohhhh ok just wondering..it seemed kind of outlandish. Dan Carkner 20:34, 11 July 2006 (UTC)

Muscle damage?

The article alleges that the distension of Dizzy's cheeks "is in fact a result of muscle tissue damage" and not poor technique, and cites an article ( http://www.clinica-planas.es/artcien20.html ) which states "Finally, the condition described in this paper is to be differentiated from weakness the buccinators shown by certain trumpet artists, particularly Dizzie Gillespie." Since the cited article explicitly states that the type of muscle damage it discusses does not pertain to Dizzy Gillespie, the statement about muscle tissue damage should be removed, unless there's a reference that states otherwise. -- Kurivaim 05:07, 24 September 2006 (UTC)


Dizzy

Great article and talk page! Can somebody please include a reference as to how he got his monicker?83.180.128.192 10:18, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

apparently it came from his antic as a comic (more of a joker in his early days.)--Smkolins 23:46, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

Dizzy or Dizzie?

The article uses both forms. --84.20.17.84 09:02, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Lead paragraph

I have reverted the change to remove two characteristics from the lead. They both played important parts in his life, and need to be there. -- Jeff3000 17:12, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

I agree - J.R. Hercules also seem to have a reputation about removing certain kinds of content from comments on his talk page even though he just cleaned his talk page. Noting his faith and ethnicity is not "micro-characterization" in this case. I see what *he* did as against Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style_(biographies)#Opening_paragraph. Dizzy Gillespie is a singularly well known Baha'i - probably the best known one[3][4], which also played important roles in his life and music as amplified in the main text, and being African-American is a key aspect of his life and music.--Smkolins 17:25, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
Read that Manual of Style link again - it specifically says the opposite of what you claim it says. As I pointed out on your talk page, admin intervention may be necessary to avert any further edit wars.J.R. Hercules 18:34, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
May I note that MoS are just guidelines, and exceptions are made all the time. I still disagree, and I believe both the faith and race are very important parts of Gillespie's life. Regardless, I have no need to get into an edit war since I don't care enought, but I just wanted to note that bringing threats of admin action are definitely not appropriate. -- Jeff3000 18:42, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
I suggest the MoS is being obeyed - generally ethnicity and religion aren't being used. This is a specific case where it is - in which case it is obeying, not flouting, the rules as written. First being African-American, and advocating that reality in light of the history of African-Americans in the US is fair. Far too often assumptions of majority positions disadvantaged African-Americans and Dizzy suffered this too. I recognize that wikipedia has a broader audiance than the US and being overly American centric will just confuse people and I've corrected entries elsewhere along those lines but I see no need to avoid mention of African-American in this context. Second, being a Baha'i: on the one hand Dizzy is among the most famous of Baha'is - on the other hand like most Baha'is he did not play it up at every opportunity and many people still don't know he was one. But he was and there is no reason to hide it. More directly the Baha'i Faith played an important role in Dizzy's life according to the one published biography I found and close friends mentioned there and online elsehwhere who do not avoid, indeed laud, the effect his faith had on him as detailed in references.--Smkolins 20:19, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
If there is sufficient documented evidence supporting that he was a Baha'i above any other belief system and we don't have a case of religious name dropping here, then I think this would favor a Baha'i mention. While I new the man personally in a minor professional sense, he never volunteered his religious convictions to me. Mombas 11:54, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
A quick search provides sources such as:
  • Shipton, Alyn (2001). Groovin' High. New York: Oxford University Press. ISBN 0195144104. A review of the book by Publishers Weekly states "Shipton credits Gillespie's embrace of the Baha'i faith by 1970 as key to the spiritual growth that allowed him to assume the roles of teacher and prophet for a generation of younger musicians." [5]
  • An article based by the same author of the above book can be found here. In it he states "It might be trite to suggest that Bahá'í filled the vacuum created in Dizzy's life by endless touring, but there is more than a little truth in it"
  • The Spiritual Side of Dizzy, among some quotes "...Becoming a Bahá´í changed my life in every way and gave me a new concept of relationship between man and his fellow-men and his family. I became more spiritually aware, and when you are more spiritually aware that will be reflected in what you do."
  • A video of Gillespie with Dan Seals, another Baha'i: Part 1, Part 3 (Part 2 is just music)
  • Another video where Gillespie talks about the Baha'i Faith, Part 1, Part 2
  • Here's an interview with him from Jazz Magazine, where he goes in depth, but it's in French. [6]
  • Wright, Josephine R. B. (1976). "Conversation with John Birks "Dizzy" Gillespie, Pioneer of Jazz". The Black Perspective in Music. 4 (1): pp. 82-89. {{cite journal}}: |pages= has extra text (help)
  • There are less important passing statements such as [7], [8], [9], [10]
-- Jeff3000 15:50, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
Bottom line- Was his spiritual conviction mentioned in his published autobiography, To Be or not to Bop (1979)? It would appear that his public conviction towards Baha'i was not as prominent as that of Seals and Croft. Mombas 22:40, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

The above quote: "...Becoming a Bahá´í changed my life in every way and gave me a new concept of relationship between man and his fellow-men and his family. I became more spiritually aware, and when you are more spiritually aware that will be reflected in what you do." is from his published autobiography, To Be or not to Bop. -- Jeff3000 23:05, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

I would amiplify that this change has practical effect from the citations that he was known for his temper in youth - being called a "roughneck" and known to "always carry a knife" and used it to being an "ambassador" and who's even silent presence brought a feeling fo comfort and peace.--Smkolins 11:42, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Samples section

Something has gone wrong with the formatting of the above. Does anyone know how to fix it? Sarsdran 21:56, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Second funeral

This article states that his second funeral was "attended by the world." I don't know what that could mean, so I'm changing it to "open to the public." --Banyan 02:00, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Miles Davis

What relevance is the reference to Miles. Shipton quotes Don Waterhouse approvingly that Dizzy in the fifties " had begun to mellow into an amalgam of his entire jazz experience to form the basis of new classicism". Remcee 12:40, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Why was he nicknamed Dizzy?

Why was this man nicknamed dizzy? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.173.33.103 (talk) 01:30, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Ever blown a trumpet? Gamerunknown (talk) 15:43, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

I heard that he was called Dizzy because of his often wild on-stage habits. POTUS270 (talk) 13:51, 10 November 2010 (UTC)

Deleted reference

I have deleted the following unreferenced paragraph pending adequate reference:

In the 1980's Gillespie made news when a biography on the rock band The Beatles, written by Peter Brown (music industry), revealed the he had a handful of homosexual encounters with Beatles manager Brian Epstein.

--Technopat (talk) 16:20, 5 April 2008 (UTC) It is referenced in the BBC Arena Documentary Broadcast 25th August 2010 on BBC4 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.110.44.41 (talk) 21:28, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

I have that book. It's called The Love You Make, and while there is a homosexual encounter and extortion attempt by someone named "Dizz Gillespie", it is not the jazz musician Dizzy Gillespie. I quote pages 180-181 "...in the spring of 1965, ... Brian met and fell in love with an American boy living in London named Dizz Gillespie. Dizz was an aspiring actor-singer in his early twenties ... Brian was so taken with him he seized upon Dizz's phantom acting career to play Svengali. ... He signed Dizz as a NEMS artist and arranged for a new wardrobe. A press announcement was sent out, and Dizz's picture appeared in several London papers as Brian's new discovery." Not only does it not sound like Dizzy Gillespie, but there should be a paper trail disproving it as well. Joinery1 (talk) 03:08, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

What does this mean?

Take a look at this sentence.

After Dizzy left Calloway in late 1941, over a notorious incident with a knife...

What is this talking about? Was somebody stabbed?24.162.120.171 (talk) 17:35, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

If you read further into the article, it states, "The argument got so bad that Dizzy actually pulled out his weapon." Which we'd assume was the knife they were talking about above. — Preceding unsigned comment added by KamikazeWolf (talk • contribs) 16:33, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

Google Doodle

This entry featured as a Doodle on the Google homepage in celebration of Dizzy's birthday. Best Doodle ever! Eedlee (talk) 07:55, 21 October 2010 (UTC)

Vandalism at top

Requesting editing powers in order to delete vandalism at the top of the page

81.103.185.164 (talk) 14:40, 21 October 2010 (UTC)

Done. lavacano201014 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Lavacano201014 for user talk page) 14:43, 21 October 2010 (UTC)

"Bent" trumpet

In the section about Gillespie's iconic "bent" trumpet, it says: "In honor of this trademark, the Smithsonian's National Museum of American History has collected Gillespie's B-flat trumpet." (There is also a later sentence that also mentions the trademark.) 'Trademark' means something very specific; did Gillespie ever actually trademark his use of the item, or the image of the item, or anything? The usage of that word in particular confused me greatly; if it only meant "signature", perhaps it should be replaced with that word instead? --138.67.180.113 (talk) 16:52, 21 October 2010 (UTC)

Pictures

there is not a good picture in this article so here are a few



Clich here fo slideshow of 27 pictures febuary 11 20 11--204.193.201.96 (talk) 01:40, 12 February 2011 (UTC)COOLMAN

de ritin is no gud

This is perhaps the most poorly written article I have encountered on Wikipedia. Enthusiasts, please fix it up. No time do to it myself. Diz deserves far better. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.115.106.49 (talk) 09:08, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

No time, eh? Somehow you had enough time to vandalize another article. Do you actually have any constructive suggestions to make? –BMRR (talk) 16:02, 6 August 2011 (UTC)


I'm a big fan of Dizzy's and a copyeditor, I would like to tighten up the text, especially in the first section, if no one has any objections. I don't have an agenda or any intention of changing the content. --KimVanA (talk) 22:24, 7 August 2011 (UTC)

Please do! Binksternet (talk) 23:39, 7 August 2011 (UTC)

The Sound of Surprise

I have removed the claim that Gillespie was called this. It's the title of a book by Whitney Balliett, which contains many references to Dizzy, but none refer to him thus. A proper citation is needed. Rothorpe (talk) 00:27, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

Cheeks

No mention of the cheeks in the article--(why/how they puffed out so far). I don't care how unorthodox your embouchure, most humans couldn't reproduce that effect with two bowling balls in their mouths. Definitely NOT normal. Did he have a disease? Considering that those iconic puffy cheeks are what people probably first envision at the mention of Gillespie's name, I think an explanation of this grotesque, yet strangely endearing phenomenon would be in order. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.55.246.132 (talk) 00:32, 22 October 2010 (UTC)


Charlie Christian should be mentioned somewhere in this article, because he was key in influencing both Diz and Bird in those early days at the Minton's Jam sessions. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.151.130.19 (talk) 20:24, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

Just to carry on from what 75.55.246.132 says above, this article really does need to address Dizzy's ability to puff out his cheeks that way. Was he naturally able to do that or was it through practice? Clearly he'd been able to do it from an early time. The fact few if any other jazz musicians are able to do this renders this phenomenon de facto notable and worthy of discussion here. And it wasn't a case of "agree to ignore" because I vividly remember Dizzy poking fun at his ability during his Muppet Show appearance. The bent trumpet is identified as Dizzy's trademark, but I contest it was his cheeks that was the more lasting trademark. 68.146.64.9 (talk) 04:23, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

I second this! I came here just to find out about his cheeks and to find out if he was using some kind of Circular breathing technique. I was surprised that it isn't even mentioned.--141.16.91.106 (talk) 11:39, 12 September 2012 (UTC)

Pianist on Billie's Bounce

At Savoy Records, there is a picture of the label. If that is Dizzy on piano, what is his pseudonym there? Max Gales...? Rothorpe (talk) 22:22, 18 October 2012 (UTC)

Presidential run?

Did he get any write-in votes? Шизомби (talk) 15:17, 4 October 2009 (UTC) The opening paragraph is way too hagiography. Certainly this is potentially the greatest trumpeter even, but let's source it. Too jazzolphlie in the opening. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.68.126.5 (talk) 12:34, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

Big band or small band?

The article says "In 1945, Gillespie left Eckstine's band because he wanted to play with a small combo." But two paragraphs later, it says "Unlike Parker, who was content to play in small groups and be an occasional featured soloist in big bands, Gillespie aimed to lead a big band himself; his first, unsuccessful, attempt to do this was in 1945." They can't both be correct, or can they? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.208.74.149 (talk) 12:24, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

Dizzy Gillespie discography

Support split - Discography section is close to one quarter of the page and should be split to a new article entitled Dizzy Gillespie discography or List of works by Dizzy Gillespie. --Jax 0677 (talk) 01:56, 24 April 2016 (UTC)

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transformation

Hi, about the edit of David Couch at [11] I'd like to discuss. I'm less concerned with the question of the content in the lede unless it is viewed as that important by folks, but in the aspect of Dizzy's transformation and the characterization wiped away of that transformation I wish to discuss. So to the details. First on the point of alcohol I agree - that's wrong. I refer to Shipton's biography page 145 where "Dizzy's … did not involve narcotics or alcohol abuse". But on the matter of changing a "knife-carrying roughneck" … see: [(…) are my words]

  • p. 19, "There is evidence… the he was no less hot-tempered (later than earlier in his youth.) For some years to come (relative to his days in Chera and Laurinburg) John Birks would still be a wild character, prone to draw his knife in the heat of anger,…."
  • p. 74-5, (episode where Dizzy drew a knife on Cab Calloway, and might have killed him if not interfered with and then attacked his poster too)
  • p. 101-2, "… Mike Vallon, did not get round actually to paying Dizzy until the trumpeter arrived in his office and began to pick his fingernails with a particularly vicious-looking knife." and "Hite was wary of Dizzy, knowing his hot-tempered reputation and that he carried such a wicked-looking knife…"
  • 354, "For the most part, by the 1980s, established in the Baha'i faith (sic) and moving toward his principles of unification and global peace, Dizzy's precence was benign, wise, and funny, combined with profound musicianship. Only occasionally were there glimpses of the firebrand youth from Cheraw…. (on one occasion) His avuncular personality encouraged each section of the large group to play their riffs in turn until suddenly he drew a vicious looking knife…"

transformed, already suggested on page 354, but referred to early of a mode in action by "soul force" rather than a knife see:

  • p. 302 … (citing Hentoff) "Dizzy reached an inner strength and discipline that total pacifists call 'soul force'."
  • p. 363 "But by far DIzzy's greatest achievement in his final years was to bury forever the image of the hothead, quick to draw his knife and stand his corner, and to suppress his childhood mean streak once and for all.")

So on the characterization of "knife-carrying roughneck" - I'd say that's good approximation for his earlier norm. One could use other words… "hothead", "quick to draw his knife", "mean-streak"-ed. And the transformation is pretty clearly stated. From a knife wielding, what word… ,"hothead" instead of "roughneck"?… who drew and fought with "vicious" knives, to a "benign, wise, and funny" man who "reached an inner strength and discipline" because he was "moving towards his principles of unification and world peace" he got from the Baha'i Faith? What would be fair to say? Smkolins (talk) 12:44, 5 May 2017 (UTC)

Though citing Hentoff above, Hentoff himself also writes of this transformation a bit more. After discussing the religion with Hentoff, Hentoff goes on to describe Dizzy's transformation: "I knew Dizzy for some forty years, and he did evolve into a spiritual person. That's a phrase I almost never use because many of the people who call themselves spiritual would kill for their faith. But Dizzy reached an inner strength and discipline that total pacificsts call "soul force"….(after speaking of Dizzy having been a big presence from early days) in later years there was also a peaceableness in Dizzy. There was nothing passive about it. It was his soul force that resolved tensions." (then Hentoff goes on to an example event in the 1980s.) (The cite would be Nat Hentoff (13 October 2000). Listen To The Stories: Nat Hentoff On Jazz And Country Music. Da Capo Press. pp. 81–2. ISBN 978-0-306-80982-8. )

Though treating the matter more briefly, another writer speaks of this too - "Reeling from the tragedy (of the King assasination), Gillespie found comfort in the Baha'i faith (sic), which emphasizes the spiritual unity of humankind and recognizes the spiritual value of music. He credited this religious movement with helping him find inner peace. It may also have given him a new reason to carry on at a time when there was little left in the musical world that he had not already accomplished." - Tony Gentry (1993). Dizzy Gillespie. Holloway House Publishing. p. 9. ISBN 978-0-87067-778-6..

A journal article examines the relationship more closely - E. Taylor Atkins (Winter, 2006). "Sacred Swing: The Sacralization of Jazz in the American Bahá'í Community". American Music. 24 (4). University of Illinois Press: 383–420. doi:10.2307/25046049. JSTOR 25046049. {{cite journal}}: Check date values in: |date= (help) - "The musicians whom I interviewed for this project describe Gillespie as a restrained yet enthusiastic teacher of his newfound faith to his audiences…. 'There was no way to know when he was going to do this', Doc Holladay recalls, 'but you'd be on the bandstand and Dizzy would say something about, 'In case y'all don't know, I'm a Baha'i, and I want you to meet my Baha'i family." And he'd say, "All the Baha'is in the audience please stand up," and there'd be people all over the place interspersed through the audience, [who] would stand up… Of course, all the diversity would show up immediately…' " and notes Gillespie was the avenue some artists found the religion - Mike Longo, James Mooddy, Flora Purim, Sherman Ferguson - and "his disinclination to heavy-handed evangelizing". QUoting Gillespie, "Becoming a Baha'i changed my life in every way and gave me a new concept of the relationship between God and man - between man and his fellow man - amn and his family" and the writer goes on to note "Some of Gillespie's most well-regarded projects in the last two decades of his career reflected the spiritual principles of the Baha'i Faith - particularly the 1976 Brazilian jazz recording Bahiana and the United Nations Orchestra (1989-1991) (which, noting Shipton's comments…) "its pathbreaking fusion of musical styles from North, Central, and South America and the Caribbean, he had demonstrated his commitment to the principles of unity, peace, and brotherhood of which he spoke so often." Smkolins (talk) 12:30, 6 May 2017 (UTC)

Another article addresses some interesting points - Chase, Christopher W. (2010-08-01). "Prophetics in the Key of Allah: Towards an Understanding of Islam in Jazz". Jazz Perspectives. 4 (2): 157–181. doi:10.1080/17494060.2010.506031. ISSN 1749-4060. - the social tensions of blacks in America being a primary impulse for some to join Islam, the agreed on chastisment of Christianity as practiced, but all together a different basis than his own for joining the Baha'i Faith - "Clearly, religious concepts such as prophetics and martyrdom have held great sway for persons like Blakey and Gillespie, the latter of whom in particular saw in his own Baha'i Faith a reflection of the loved experiences and trials of powerful African American artists and activists of his time…" Smkolins (talk) 12:59, 6 May 2017 (UTC)

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Personal Life and Death

No section on Personal Life and Death, not even a mention of what he died from.? --169.0.4.50 (talk) 15:51, 1 February 2019 (UTC)

Are you hoping for details about his family? His daughter maybe?
Vmavanti (talk) 03:27, 23 July 2019 (UTC)

Quotes in lead?

Are quotes in lead really needed?--169.0.96.111 (talk) 11:04, 31 December 2019 (UTC)

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