Talk:Dénes Lukács (tennis)

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Requested move[edit]

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: no consensus. This has come up quite often recently, and really needs to be dealt with on a larger scale basis. I know that an RFC is in the works at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Tennis#Player_names_have_no_diacritics; I highly recommend that editors refrain from initiating move discussions until such an RFC is completed, and I urge that such an RFC get underway soon. Doing these move discussions player-by-player eats up a lot of time which could be productively spent otherwise. Aervanath (talk) 18:07, 21 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]


Denes Lukacs → Dénes Lukács – This tennis player become notable when he first played for the Hungary Davis Cup team as documented here end here. Being a Hungarian player his name is spelled correctly with the given accents otherwise it could be confused with other persons. relisted--Mike Cline (talk) 13:24, 11 March 2012 (UTC) Lajbi Holla @ me • CP 10:28, 2 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

  • Oppose WP:UCN, WP:UE. The English language sources currently in the article do not use accents, as one of those is the Davis Cup site, and another is the ATP tour, these would seem to indicate the likley common form is without accents. As your source are not in English, it cannot be used to show English language usage, only that a form with accents exists. Further, WP:PRECISION, if we don't have another article on another Denes Lukacs, there's no need to add disambiguatory information. And even if we did, if this one is the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC, then there still doesn't need to add disambiguatory information. 70.24.251.71 (talk) 11:35, 2 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - are non-registered readers eligible to vote? Lajbi Holla @ me • CP 13:57, 2 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think there are any rules against unregistered editors being involved in the discussion. (It's not actually a "vote", by the way.) --DAJF (talk) 01:09, 3 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Than e.g. a single person can log out with a dynamic IP modem (or IP generator program) and vote as many times as he want. As I remember AfD has restrictions for voting exactly to prevent these frauds. Lajbi Holla @ me • CP 10:31, 3 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
This is not a vote, User: 70.24.251.71 is a frequent contributor, and s/he has a reasoned argument. There's not a problem here. —  AjaxSmack  05:29, 4 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. As per WP:UE above, we should use the form used by reliable English-language sources, such as the ATP profile quoted, which may not necessarily be the same as how the person's name is written in Hungary. --DAJF (talk) 01:09, 3 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Comment please note that WP:UE states :"If there are too few English-language sources to constitute an established usage, follow the conventions of the language appropriate to the subject". I've listed two sources while next editor posted three one of which is www.tennislive.net a betting site. According to your reasoning we should stick to the Hungarian form. ATP never uses accents still we have Tomáš Berdych, Feliciano López, Marc López, Guillermo García-López, Łukasz Kubot, Marin Čilić and the list goes on. All names follow the player's native language rules. Also ATP is not a third-party source. Lajbi Holla @ me • CP 10:38, 3 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - No. As I wrote in the request intro: Based on tennis notability guidelines, it's the Davis Cup that counts. Please read the request description before voting. Lajbi Holla @ me • CP 10:29, 3 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. The diacritic does absolutely no harm, moreover he is Hungarian. Fakirbakir (talk) 21:50, 3 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. The subject is from and almost exclusively notable for actions in or on behalf of a country that uses the diacritics in question. —  AjaxSmack  05:29, 4 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Yes, he is notable for Davis Cup play But Davis Cup uses the standard player names based on IPIN registration at the ITF. Here is his profile page at the official Davis Cup site: [1]. He is always listed as 'Denes Lukacs' in all official results and draws. Notice how the placenames for the tournaments do have diacritics (Gödöllo Kiskastely, Gödöllo, Hungary), so it is not that official tennis sites do not know how to spell diacricits. It is just that no diacritics are ever used in player names. If you look at Denes Lukacs profile on the ITF site: [2] he has over 90 matches in ITF events over many years. So that is multiple sources (draws and results) where this player's name is always spelled 'Denes Lukacs' no matter where the event took place. MakeSense64 (talk) 07:51, 12 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. It is a common practice elsewhere in Wikipedia to include diacritics in titles, along with redirects from versions without diacritics. -- P.T. Aufrette (talk) 08:33, 4 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Comment But nobody can play tennis with diacritics in the name. Every player registers a non-diacritics name before they can start playing in any tennis event that qualifies for notability here in WP. It is a common policy in tennis not to use any diacritics in the player names. This is so per the required IPIN registration at the ITF. Do we go with the plain facts, or do we go with how some editors want it to be when it comes to diacritics in names? MakeSense64 (talk) 07:56, 12 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. Per Tennis project consensus and guidelines we use English sources like ITF, ATP, and Davis Cup as he is notable for being a tennis player. Added to those English sources above like Baylor University, the Independent, and CBS should make this an easy call. Fyunck(click) (talk) 09:01, 4 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. Absolutely uncontroversial move to player's actual name. - Darwinek (talk) 10:53, 4 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Comment His actual players name is 'Denes Lukacs' because it is not possible to register as a tennis player with diacritics in the name. You are welcome to show us any drawsheet or official result in which his name is spelled with diacritics. MakeSense64 (talk) 08:00, 12 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Here you are: French Open on Eurosport. Can we just move on now? Lajbi Holla @ me • CP 09:01, 13 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Comment That's not an official drawsheet, and as you can see the diacritics are used very inconsistently there. E.g. Jankovic and Cirstea are players that are spelled with diacritics on WP, and without them on Eurosport. Maybe Eurosport doesn't check its facts very well. Maybe it tries to please its audience in certain countries. Fact is that tennis players cannot register with a name that is not in English alphabet: IPIN registration guide. The vast majority of English sources spells tennis names without diacritics, as they are found at ITF and ATP sites. And per WP:ENGLISH we use the most common spelling found in our sources. So, yes we can move on, unless you find a lot more English sources that use diacritics in tennis player names. MakeSense64 (talk) 09:37, 13 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Comment So you want us to show a drawsheet, and when it is done, you say it's not official since only ATP/ITF is that. It seems like a made-up Catch-22 to me. Strange. I thought the guideline is to have reliable sources and not official ones. Eurosport is widely considered reliable in Wikipedia and you are now questioning it because it doesn't prove your side. And you are asking for lot more (?) English drawsheets while the only one you have is the ITF one. Hmmm. I guess a reliable pro-diacritics drawsheet was presented as you requested now it's time for the opposing side to show a not ATP/ITF affiliated drawsheet. Please note that players can change their sports aliases (and they did it not the tennis association) to fit English readers' wishes (see Djokovic for example, must have been the case with Ivanovic and Cirstea), but the rest of the couple dozen names are with diacritics. Lajbi Holla @ me • CP 12:28, 13 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
It shows that Eurosport is not reliable for names. Shahar Peer, Mirjana Lucic, Aravane Rezai, Agnieszka Radwanska,.. are all written without diacritics, while some others got diacritics. Laura Pous-Tio appears as Laura Pous, and so on... It is completely inconsistent. Just because you found one source where inconsistent naming is used, doesn't mean we have to follow this one source. We use what we find most commonly in all our sources. MakeSense64 (talk) 13:10, 13 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support as per proper English and standard encyclopedic practice. The Chicago Manual of Style has good advice on Hungarian names and diacritics: "In Hungarian practice the family name precedes the given name—for example, Molnár Ferenc, Kodály Zoltán. In English contexts, however, such names are usually inverted—Ferenc Molnár, Zoltán Kodály [...] Hungarian requires several varieties of accented vowels [...] Á á, É é, Í í, Ó ó, Ö ö, Ő ő, Ú ú, Ü ü, Ű ű." Prolog (talk) 12:45, 4 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Comment We are not discussion how Hungarian is spelled, we are discussing this tennis player's name for English WP. The accented vowels you mention never appear in official tennis results or draw, because you cannot register an IPIN on a name with diacritics. This is ITF policy, which is the official source for everything tennis. All draws and results for tournaments always give names without diacritics. So nearly all our sources for tennis articles come with names that have no diacritics. Do we go with the concensus of reliable sources, or what? MakeSense64 (talk) 08:06, 12 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - Since tennis players are notable only if they play on international level, it makes more sense to stick to their English names as used on the ATP, WTA and ITF websites. That's the names that people will search for if they come to English language wikipedia. In general I am against using diacritics on the English WP, because it amounts to "soft ownership" of the article as it makes it more difficult for English language users to edit articles with diacritics. So, this kind of moves to a diacritic name can be opposed because of WP:OWN. MakeSense64 (talk) 10:04, 5 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    With the help of redirects all English readers will find the page and hopefully they will know how to spell it correctly. The editors now can use plenty of auxiliary tools to complete to their default keyboard (even in Wikipedia under the "save page" button). I have no clue how WP:OWN came into the picture. Lajbi Holla @ me • CP 13:08, 5 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: Can someone (ideally one of the many editors that have swarmed over from Project Hungary) please explain why the fact that the subject of this article is Hungarian should somehow exempt him from the Wikipedia:Article titles policy (note that it is policy - not a guideline) - specifically the policy concerning Foreign names and anglicization, which states that English-language usage must prevail? I repeat: this is not just some pedantic Tennis project guideline; it is Wikipedia Policy. Why is it suddenly OK here to ignore this clearly established rule? --DAJF (talk) 10:34, 5 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think everyone here supports the use of anglicized names like Nuremberg and Florence. However, per authoritative sources on the English language, the diacriticless spellings commonly used by sports writers and non-reference works are not anglicizations, but simply misspellings and sloppy English. Prolog (talk) 11:45, 5 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Exactly. That's the core of the problem that causes the confusion between editors' interpretation of anglicization. As I've already written on Fyunck(click)'s talk page : journalists are not professors. Most of them just don't care to open the Character Map in their Windows. Lajbi Holla @ me • CP 12:51, 5 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Comment No, it has nothing to do with sloppy English and misspellings. Tennis players who play on international level are required to supply their anglicized name to the ITF. This is their name that will be used on scoreboards, in draws and in published match results. The player choses/submits that name and can also ask the ITF to change it later on (for example when a woman gets married). So this is their "player name" just like artists have an "artist name". Tennis articles should use the player name for the title of their articles, because tennis is what they are notable for, and that is the name we see in all official results, draws and English language news sources. MakeSense64 (talk) 07:29, 11 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support as per this is an encyclopedia. Names are definitely encyclopedic fact!!! (Gabinho>:) 19:59, 5 March 2012 (UTC))[reply]
Comment It is a fact that all notable players play tennis under a non-diacritics name of their choice, based on their IPIN registration at the ITF. That's the name we find in all official results and draws. So, yes, let's stick to these facts. MakeSense64 (talk) 08:12, 12 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support; move to a more accurate name. I recognise that some sources have stripped diacritics, but we don't have to mindlessly repeat their error. bobrayner (talk) 20:01, 6 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Some sources? When I created the article I used and checked a bunch of English sources. It was Denes Lukacs per all the official sites and other English sources. This is the accurate English name. We don't need to be like lemmings and start using a foreign alphabet when we have a perfectly good one for this English Wikipedia. I used his most common name in English when I created it, as I've been told to do countless times by admins and others. And I made sure his Hungarian spelling is there for all to see, again as I was taught. Any administrator that does even a little work to verify all the English spellings of Denes Lukacs before they close this, plus reads the "other comments" should see it is just where it's supposed to be. Fyunck(click) (talk) 09:03, 10 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Comment @Bobrayner. Stripping the player names from diacritics is not a mindlessly repeated error but a strict ITF policy. Players have to register with a non-diacritics name before they can play internationally. You cannot find any official draw or result where Lukacs is spelled with diacritics. Reliable news media check their facts against the official sources, which is in this case the ITF. So, not 'some', but virtually all reliable English sources go with the player names found on the ITF site. MakeSense64 (talk) 08:19, 12 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment. I get 272 Google News hits for the diacritic-free version of the subject's name, none for the version with diacritics. Kauffner (talk) 09:10, 10 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Comment There are 16 100 hits for "Lukács Dénes" (order of the Hungarian name) with diacritics.[3] Fakirbakir (talk) 11:29, 10 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Those are non-English hits. What are you trying to show? That his name is spelled differently in Hungarian than it is in English? We've got a hat note about that already. This is the No. 2 hit for your search. I'm not so sure the tennis player is primary in Hungarian. Kauffner (talk) 14:30, 10 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
He is a living person. He does not have English name nor naturalized English name. We must use the Hungarian version with English grammatic order. (Dénes Lukács).Fakirbakir (talk) 15:37, 10 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Every player registers an English name with the ITF, otherwise they cannot play internationally. His player name "Lukacs Denes" "Denes Lukacs" is used in all results, draws, on the scoreboard, and on the official tennis sites (ITF, ATP, WTA). Journalists who write about tennis, take the names from these official sites. That's why we always find the non-diacritics names in the vast majority of reliable sources about tennis. So, that is the title we should use for the article. Remember, we are not discussing how his name is spelled, we are discussing the title of his article. His real name is mentioned in the article, as per our policies. MakeSense64 (talk) 07:37, 11 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment The rule established here should be applied to all the articles of this type: [4] Tenhuu (talk) 08:54, 11 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
What? You know every time this type of thing comes up someone says that. We have that rule already for tennis articles and it doesn't matter. There have been recent debates in tennis like Talk:Andrea Petkovic and in hockey like Talk:Marek Zidlicky so I'd say you are dreaming if you think things will change. They'll be taken article by article as they are now. Plus in this one we've had illegal campaigning that sort of taints things no matter which way it goes. In another there was canvassing going on in a Swedish name change where posts about it were made in the Swedish wikipedia. They poured in over here with brand new accounts. Now that doesn't happen very often but to put everyone's eggs in one basket is probably not fair (or realistic) to either side of the debate. Fyunck(click) (talk) 09:54, 11 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
That's right. We cannot take the outcome of a discussion on Denes Lukacs Talk page and then extend it to all articles. I agree that we need consistency in this issue because project tennis cannot work with this mish-mash of some names diacritics and some without them. But that can only be done through a discussion on a higher level of the project, where then hopefully a more broad concensus can be formed. That cannot be done on the Denes Lukacs page.
But we should insist on admin closure for this one, because also here we have a contentious debate. MakeSense64 (talk) 10:43, 11 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment A player need to register at the ITF to get an IPIN (International Player Identification Number), before they can play any event that makes a tennis player notable. You can do so here: [5]. I tried to make a registration and when I fill out a name with diacritics it gives me a "Family name is not valid" error message. The IPIN registration seems to insist on anglicized names. That's why we find only anglicized player names on all official tennis sites. The conclusion is that any international tennis player does so under his anglicized name. And that's also the names we see in our reliable media sources. MakeSense64 (talk) 11:07, 11 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    • So, because the ITF website is incapable of correctly spelling a name, Wikipedia should follow suit? Wikipedia is an encyclopedia not an official sports authority or an news outlet (see WP:OFFICIALNAMES and WP:NOT). Wikipedia also does not have the technical limitations or style restrictions to prevent diacritic usage. —  AjaxSmack  02:08, 12 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
      • That's silly. They know how to spell it in the English alphabet and that's what they use as have almost all the English sources. You make it sound like everyone in the English speaking world is in error because they all choose to anglicize names, and that's ridiculous to put it in those terms. You'd wind up with tit for tat with English speakers saying you haven't learned the proper English alphabet yet. The overwhelming majority of English sources spell the name Denes Lukacs while it's tough to find a thimbleful of English sources using the foreign alphabetized spelling. And the ITF governing body carries much more weight. You can call the entire English speaking source pool a bunch of spelling imbeciles if you like but your counter sourcing amounts to nothing. It would be very interesting for an administrator here to check all the supplied English sources listed (and maybe a few of their own) to see "exactly" how most of them spell Denes Lukacs. And the ITF listings occasionally give birth towns names with diacritics, so there keyboards aren't broken. Just like we at wikipedia go with common name listings such as Bill Tilden rather than official name William Tilden II, we go with the common English name here in Denes Lukacs, plus the official tennis sources also back this up. I find it hard to believe an administrator will reach the same conclusion as you that everyone of these sources has a spelling IQ of 10. Fyunck(click) (talk) 06:14, 12 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
        • AjaxSmack is missing the point completely. The players themselves have chosen a non-diacritic name when they register for IPIN (required to play in any international tennis event from the juniors up). By pushing the diacritics back in you go against the name that these players have chosen to go by as far as their tennis activities go. You are trying to tell us that these players do not know how to spell their own name? They chose a non-diacritics player name when they register to play tennis, that becomes their name that is used in all official draws and results, and that's the official source that all reliable media will check their facts against. And we have to respect that. Are we here to advocate that diacritics should be used in all names, even in sports where diacritics are not used at all in player names? Or are we here to report on what we find based on the reliable sources we have? We have just opened a new discusiion about what this IPIN means for us on the project tennis Talk. As a simple example you may want to check out this official website about the recent Serbian Open: [[6]]. All player names are without diacritics, also the Serbian wildcard players that got entry in the tournament, and who have all diacritics in their 'birth name', but no diacritics in their tennis player name, because that is based on IPIN standard. Do you think the organizers of the Serbian Open do not know how to spell the names of Serbian players? MakeSense64 (talk) 06:36, 12 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

*Oppose per MakeSense64 's arguments. Hungarian names are spelled without diacritics even on the pages of Hungarian tournaments. For instance the name of Vanda Lukács is spelled as Vanda Lukacs on the page of Budapest Grand Prix [7] Tenhuu (talk) 10:23, 12 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

  • Dear Admins, Tenhuu is a sockpuppet of the banned user:Iaaasi. This vote is null. Fakirbakir (talk) 21:09, 15 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
You should know that this is not a poll, so calling it a vote is wrong Tenhuu (talk) 21:28, 15 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Comment And there's Ágnes Szávay on the same page. Lajbi Holla @ me • CP 18:25, 12 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Reply I was talking about the official page of the tournament, not the wiki page, maybe I was unclear... And Ágnes Szávay is not on that page: [8]. But we have Reka-Luca Jani instead of Réka-Luca Jani Tenhuu (talk) 18:42, 12 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Reply the official site is part of the WTA-overseen series of tournament sites (just check the main page). It's not a third party source. Of course newspapers hardly publish full drawsheets. But you can easily find an interview with "Jürgen Melzer" (and not Jurgen) on the Telegraph. Lajbi Holla @ me • CP 18:57, 12 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Reply OK, if you prefer The Telegraph as a source, I can show you here the name Ágnes Szávay spelled as Agnes Szavay [9][10] Tenhuu (talk)
Comment Will his sport achievements decide the writing of his name? Wiki is an encyclopedia, not a tennis page.Fakirbakir (talk) 11:56, 12 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Answer Yes, just like Lady Gaga's artistic achievements determine the title of her article. You don't find her under Stefani Germanotta, that's a redirect. Tennis players compete under a non-diacritics player name they register at the ITF. If they are notable only for playing tennis then that determines the title of their article, because their player name becomes the common name we find in virtually all reliable English sources about that player. And we do use WP:ENGLISH. MakeSense64 (talk) 12:42, 12 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
And what about Jelena Janković ,Martin Kližan, Katarína Studeníková, Lenka Wienerová, Lenka Juríková, Zuzana Zlochová, Michaela Hončová, Jozef Kovalík, Dominik Hrbatý, Dušan Lajović, Janko Tipsarević, Slobodan Živojinović, Nenad Zimonjić, Nikola Ćirić, Nataša Zorić, Ana Jovanović, Aleksandra Krunić, Filip Krajinović, Tamara Čurović etc.....???????Fakirbakir (talk) 13:45, 12 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Have you been able to find any tournament draw or official results with these diacritics names? Where are the English language sources that spell the players names that way? All these names have to be moved just like has been done with Novak Djokovic and Ana Ivanovic among many others. But we have to start somewhere. MakeSense64 (talk) 13:51, 12 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Yes. So not ATP is the only resource. As you can see Eurosport uses diacritics. Also consider that ATP only exist from 1972. What about the earlier draws? Lajbi Holla @ me • CP 09:01, 13 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Djokovic's name is not simply stripped of its diacritics but altered. Otherwise it would be Dokovic (instead of Đoković). Adding the "j" just to make it sound in English like the original Sebian consonant "Đ" is totally a wrong example what shouldn't be done in Wikipedia. Djokovic possible agreed to this name change. Same goes for Mirka Federer (she should use Mirka Federerová because she's Czech). These players decided to have an English-form name, which is fine because it is their decision. For the rest of the players if they don't change their names on their own will it's not our task to do it. Lajbi Holla @ me • CP 18:25, 12 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Given Wikipedia's general tolerance of diacritics, and the subject's ethnicity and nationality, we ought to ensure encyclopaedic accuracy by using the subject's correct name. If that cannot be done in line with any policy, we ought to defer to one of the key pillars – WP:IAR in order to improve the encyclopaedia. --Ohconfucius ¡digame! 03:04, 13 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The difference being many of us feel that reading "pillars" and "IAR" confirms that it should be at Denes Lukacs, and it's probably just as accurate as Bill Clinton which has been there because of common name for 8 years. Fyunck(click) (talk) 04:54, 13 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Support - or rename everyone in Category:Hungarian male tennis players. The fact that Western popular media don't/can't use diacritics is a fact that will always be with us. If we make this the standard then remove all diacritics and accents from every bio on en:WP. Accentless redirects will always enable the correct accented name to be found. In ictu oculi (talk) 17:05, 13 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
comment - It's not just won't or can't. The ITF is the governing body of the sport of tennis and handles the lower tiered pros, jrs, davis cup, Fed Cup, hopman cup, and also the grand slam events. The ATP and WTA handle the rest but bow to the ITF for rules and such. Per 1924 agreement the ITF handles everything in English. Per their own registration (online since 2004) players are "required" to chose and spell an English alphabet name with no diacritics. Djokovic chose to add a j to his name when he joined and that's where his article is at. So the ITF, WTA and ATP use this English alphabet name and overwhelmingly so do newspapers and tvs. It's what we see every day. In their own countries these players spell their names in their own language and I'm sure their nation's press does the same. I realize this is unique in sports but I didn't make these rules nor did I make wiki rules that have people like William Jefferson Clinton placed at Bill Clinton. Denes Lukacs is his common English name and his official tennis name and that's where it should be located with his foreign spelling right afterwards in parentheses. And for readers who can only spell with diacritics we use a redirect on the diacritic version to enable those readers to find the correct article. These people are on wikipedia for being notable for one thing...playing tennis. Fyunck(click) (talk) 21:48, 15 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Fyunck, firstly, diacritics are for a reason - there is a difference in pronunciation between with and without. Secondly surely by WP:COMMONNAME you've just destroyed the argument for using ITF as a WP:RS in respect of naming, if players are required to register without diacritics that's purely a software issue. The argument about finding things by diacritics is neither here nor there: Google both "András Ádám-Stolpa" and "Andras Adam-Stolpa" and both go directly to the same tennis player, András Ádám-Stolpa. We still haven't seen here a WP policy that says that tennis players cannot be spelled by their correct name. In ictu oculi (talk) 17:04, 16 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
But there is also no WP policy that says that tennis players should play tennis under their "real name". The policy we have is to use the most common name in English sources, and that may not be the "real name". E.g. for artists and authors we often use the stagename or pseudonym. That just shows we put the article under the name that was most commonly connected with the activity that made the person notable. MakeSense64 (talk) 17:15, 16 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Hi MakeSense64 . Please see comments at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Tennis/Article guidelines. This is nothing to do with "stage names" or "real names", this appears to be that the International Tennis Federation doesn't allow Björn Borg his omljud and makes him "Bjorn Borg" on the ITF website. This is a spelling restriction. It has nothing to do with "real names" "pseudonyms" etc. So sorry, why should WP follow the ITF in this matter? In ictu oculi (talk) 17:39, 16 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
It is a "player alias" if you want. Why is tennis doing that? Well, how are they supposed to keep up world rankings (needed for player seeding in draws) if they don't use any naming convention in their sports? In team sports this kind of issue is much less a problem, because they play for the team. You seem to think that moving a tennis player's name is not a big deal because a redirect will be kept at all the other alternative names. We have to realize that tennis player articles are not really very standalone. Each tennis player name is included multiple times in many other tennis articles (draws, tournaments, other players). Just to give you a random example you are welcome to look here: [11]. Over 500 other articles mention Shahar Pe'er, and she is not even a top 10 player and only 24 years old. Articles with her name in it go on being added every week she plays. But all the sources we work with (draws, official results, media articles) mentioned her as "Shahar Peer", that's the name she registered to play tennis. So if you think it is no problem to move tennis players to their "real name" then I welcome you to make the WP draw articles for the next week's tournaments. You will have to work with something like this: [12], no diacritics in any name. Good luck finding out which of these names need diacritics for our article. There is a good reason for the WP policy to use the most common name found in English sources: because it becomes very complicated if you require editors to add diacritics back in when there are none in the sources.
As for the topic of this RM. This person has always played tennis under the name "Denes Lukacs". And he is not notable for any activities conducted under his "real name". It is not our job to figure out whether this person likes this "spelling restriction" or not, that would be OR. We go with the name that is most commonly found in our English sources, per clear WP policy. If you want to change that policy, then this is not the place to do it. MakeSense64 (talk) 07:26, 17 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Other comments[edit]

I do have a complaint about this poll. User:Lajbi has, in my opinion, done damage by what amounts to canvassing by posting a particular post at Project Hungary. Posting there is no problem as I had thought of doing the same at Project Tennis, but the manner and bias-nous of the post violates cavassing-campaigning rules. I posted a reply that corrected the original post but it may have to a large degree damaged the results here. In this comment I wanted to make sure any closing administrator realizes this activity was going on. Thanks. Fyunck(click) (talk) 09:47, 4 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Show me another instance when you moved back a tennis article with diacritics (or just show me only one that uses the English form instead the native form - trust me when I say I browsed through all names I could dig from my memory, and that's a lot but none I found). Well there isn't any? Then it's a new trend to move (or move back - depends on point of view) no matter what the tennis consensus was since it wasn't the way it was handled to this day. Also I told you I will put reminders to affiliated Wikiprojects because in a diacritics related debate every non-English wikiproject team is affected. I don't see any problem with the three sentences I've posted. It informs them about the current status of debate. Also it would be very fine to have a link to that WP consensus you are often referring to to present it for the voters in details (to see the quality of research preceeding it, the number of editors participating in the creation process or that it even exists). Last time I've expanded Wikipedia:WikiProject Tennis/Article guidelines last year there wasn't such instruction and I couldn't remember any pre-consensus debate from then on otherwise I would have taken part in it. You've included the "spelling rule" on 25 July 2011. It was questioned on February 15, 2012 by Sdcfr75 and was rejected immediately by two editors only (the two most frequent editors I must admit but sadly Wikiproject tennis has so few active members and possibly even fewer had watchlisted the guidelines page: the proposal was rejected by two editors). It was also questioned by me on your talk page here and here. Both me Sdcfr75 pointed out that it's common practise that 95% of tennis articles use the native form. No wider debate followed. I encourage everyone to read that before deciding. Don't you think the creators of those articles rather agree with that rather than the English usage? Now it's up to the community to decide. Although I'm pretty sure noone will read all the stuff I've mentioned in this reply I just wanted to make sure any closing administrator realizes what is actually going on. Thanks. Lajbi Holla @ me • CP 12:04, 4 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
And the place for debate or personal notes on my views is here and not on other project's talk pages. Lajbi Holla @ me • CP 12:04, 4 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The note I placed on Hungary Project was the truth and it was to inform those reading it that the situation you posted was incorrect, and why it was incorrect. It was important for them to know it was a biased post. Informing them was fine, fibbing was not. Your "new trend is about to arise that every Hungarian (and non-English) names are to deprived of their accents" sentence is overblown and written to instill panic amongst readers. It is blatant campaigning. Also when you write "Dénes Lukács has been moved back to Denes Lukacs" with no other context at all those readers will think, oh my goodness here's an article that was happily sitting there at Dénes Lukács when someone came along and changed it to Denes Lukacs. We know that's not what happened because you started the changing. So lets get real here. As for when consensus was made I believe it was back in May 2008... I'd have to dig back through the archives to find it but we even talked about it recently here. If you want examples of editors trying to move pages against tennis consensus you can try this and this and this and see examples of player's names at Noval Djokovic and Anna Ivanovic. Hockey had a huge go around last year with Marek Zidlickey so this is just one of those continuing things, at least in the world of wikipedia sports, not some sudden attack on every Hungarian personality. Fyunck(click) (talk) 20:29, 4 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted[edit]

  • Relisting comment - Editors are reminded to Not make this personal and impune the motives of other participants. Focus on what English language sources use for this player's name. --Mike Cline (talk) 13:24, 11 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support -- If the correct form of the subject'sname has diacriticals, the article should have them. BUT it is vital that the non-acceented version should be retained as a redirect. Thus those seeking the article, but who are unaware of accents (which are difficult to type on a US/UK keyboard will still get there. Peterkingiron (talk) 12:17, 19 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

redirects[edit]

Lukacs Denes , Lukács Dénes should all redirect here, per native name order. 70.24.251.71 (talk) 11:38, 2 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Move discussion in progress[edit]

There is a move discussion in progress which affects this page. Please participate at Talk:Gerard Solves - Requested move and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RM bot 03:42, 23 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The fact this one just closed after a whole heap of arguing on March 21 2012, and now is being listed again by User:In ictu oculi just can't be kosher here at Wikipedia. This is going to be reported to administration. Fyunck(click) (talk) 05:28, 25 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Move discussion in progress[edit]

There is a move discussion in progress which affects this page. Please participate at Talk:Gérard Solvès - Requested move and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RM bot 18:21, 9 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Ridiculous. Two large individual move requests fail very recently, then it gets bunched with 15 other moves and it passes in the crowd. I guess monthly move requests are now the norm where we keep putting it up till one way passes by wearing down the other editors. Fyunck(click) (talk) 18:49, 9 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

For the record the first (above) "no consensus" RM was:

  • support = 11 Lajbi Fakirbakir Bobrayner AjaxSmack P T Aufrette Darwinek Prolog KoerteFa Gabinho OhConfucius In ictu oculi
  • oppose = 5 Fyunck Makesense64 DAJF 70.24.251.71 Kauffner

and concluded with admin comment "...an RFC get underway soon. Doing these move discussions player-by-player eats up a lot of time which could be productively spent otherwise. Aervanath (talk) 18:07, 21 March 2012 (UTC)" There was a larger RM, and there was a discussion at WT:BLP. Also two of those opposing (70.24.251.71 and DAJF) misquoted WP:UE which as everyone keeps on noting, has Søren Kierkegaard and other diacritic examples, and the 6th was a banned user's sock. Under these circumstances it's not surprising that 11 to 5 support reappeared in a wider discussion with better information. In ictu oculi (talk) 23:05, 9 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

To which the response is this? In ictu oculi (talk) 02:41, 10 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Name[edit]

Sorry, I didn't notice the recent edit warring until after I took out the unaccented name. But I don't see any explanation for why it's in there. Hopefully if someone feels a need to put it back, they'll provide a reliable source for it, and some rationale for why it might benefit readers to have it, when it's the standard way that people who don't want to use diacritics would render the name, as opposed to an alternative. Dicklyon (talk) 21:36, 30 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Actually yes, there is an rfc on this right now with an agreement to leave it as is until we come to some sort of agreement. I can ask the administrator but it would be best if you self-revert. Thanks. Fyunck(click) (talk) 22:09, 30 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I don't want to restore it to the state of having an unsourced alt, so I'll just leave it and go away. Dicklyon (talk) 04:22, 31 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I'll give it a source then, since I agree, it is better to have one. Fyunck(click) (talk) 04:57, 31 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
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