Talk:Covent Garden/Archive 1

Archive 1

Church

If it was a Convent's Garden, why was it owned by the Church of England? Convents are Catholic. -Adrian

Covent Garden was the name given, during the reign of King John (1199 - 1256), to a 40 acre patch in the county of Middlesex, bordered west and east by which is now St. Martin's Lane and Drury Lane, and north and south By Floral Street and a line drawn from Chandos Place, along Maiden Lane and Exeter Street to the Aldwych.

In this quadrangle the Abbey or Convent of St Peter, Westminster, maintained a large kitchen garden throughout the Middle Ages to provide its daily food. Over the next three centuries, the monks old "convent garden" became a major source of fruit and vegetables in London and was managed by a succession of leaseholders by grant from the Abbot of Westminster.

These type of leases did eventually lead to property disputes throughout the kingdom, which the monarch King Henry VIII solved in 1540 by the stroke of a pen when he dissolved the monasteries and appropriated their land. Prior to this England was Catholic.

King Henry VIII granted the land to John Baron Russell, Great Admiral of England, and later the first Earl of Bedford. In fulfilment of his father's dying wish, King Edward VI, bestowed the remainder of the convent garden in 1547 to his maternal uncle, Edward Seymour, the Duke of Somerset who began building Somerset House on the South side of the Strand the next year. When he was beheaded for treason in 1552, the land came once again into royal gift, and was awarded four months later to one of those who had contributed to Seymour's downfall. Forty acres, known as "le Covent Garden" plus "the long acre", were granted by royal patent in perpetuity to John Russell, the first Earl of Bedford.

So I guess it is a simplification to say it was owned by the Church of England. - Laurence

yep.

The boundary of Covent Garden extends up to New Oxford Street, Westward to Seven Dials, Eastwards to Kingsway and Southbound to Strand.

The article dwells on the tourist and (near-sanitised) heritage aspects but fails to give an overall picture of the locale. Historically it was notorious for it's crime and deprivation. Currently there are two large homeless hostels are situated within Covent Garden and another few situated nearby.

What they make

Doesn't Covent Garden make soups? -- Kilo-Lima 13:19, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

Not really... A small company made the first "New Covent Garden Soup" in 1987, but they were never based in Covent Garden. They grew vegetables, near Peterborough, I believe, and were looking for another market for their produce instead of simply taking it all to the wholesale market in London at - Covent Garden. They sold out the business in 1998, and the brand is now owned by Singapore Food Industries. So now you know! Carbonix 22:14, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

Valletta connection?

I attempted to substantiate this paragraph: "The architecture of the Covent Garden Market has led to the creation of a market with identical architectural plans in Valletta, the capital of Malta."

There may be some confusion here. The Royal Opera House in Valletta was designed by E M Barry, the same architect who designed the Royal Opera House in Covent Garden, London. (It was completed in 1866, gutted by a fire in 1873 and destroyed by enemy action during World War II.) However there does not seem to be any linkage relating to the design of market at Valletta. I've removed the comment, until someone can clarify this. Carbonix 21:48, 7 December 2005 (UTC)

Camden

Parts of Covent Garden bordering Kingsway and Holborn are in the London Borough of Camden, and the parliamentary constituency of Holborn and St. Pancras . Anyone have a view about that before I add it to the infobox? -- zzuuzz 22:44, 18 January 2006

I'd say go for it. RicDod 18:22, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Reputation?

I think the article ought to mention the area's notoriety, and the connection of "flower girls" with prostitution. (I'm just working on Wells's story "The Diamond-Maker" (1894), which uses the term.) 128.147.38.10 15:09, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Photos from when it actually was a market

It would be nice to have photos of the time when Covent Garden actually was a market. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Zzapper (talk • contribs) 08:03, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Support removal of trivial trivia

Viva-Verdi (talk) 15:40, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Ditto. Almost did it myself when I saw the Lost entry --John Gibbard (talk) 16:50, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

I've also removed the Naomi Campbell "discovery" story. It seems to be all over the web but I can't find any reliable sources for it. More to the point: as a pretty young schoolgirl in London if she was going to be discovered it had to happen somewhere in London, so the mere fact that she was walking in Covent Garden doesn't mean much and certainly isn't a "cultural connection." --Tony Sidaway 17:19, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

Northern boundary

I think you mean New Oxford Street, not High Holborn, for the northern boundary. High Holborn becomes New Oxford Street to the west of Holborn Station. Kake Pugh (talk) 19:49, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

covent qarden is very beautiful .! <3 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.219.199.34 (talk) 14:25, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

Boundary

The lead of the article currently defines the district thus:

“ Covent Garden is a district in London on the eastern fringes of the West End, between St. Martin's Lane and Drury Lane. It is associated with the former fruit and vegetable market in the central square, now a popular shopping and tourist site, and the Royal Opera House, which is also known as "Covent Garden". The district is divided by the main thoroughfare of Long Acre, north of which is given over to independent shops centred on Neal's Yard and Seven Dials, while the south contains the central square with its street performers and most of the elegant buildings, theatres and entertainment facilities... ”

This is supported by a citation to The London Encyclopedia but the lead of that starts:

“ The area in whch Covent Garden stands - circumscribed by the present Long Acre, St. Martin's Lane, Drury Lane and an irregular line parallel with the Strand ... ”

Other entries in that encyclopedia support their definition of the district. For example, Neal Street is stated to be north of Covent Garden and Seven Dials is stated to be a neighbouring district, not part of it.

The boundaries of the district are significant for the topic as they would determine whether notable structures such as the Freemasons' Hall, London are in the district or not.

Other sources seem likely to vary as I doubt that there is an exact and universal definition. For example, Chambers London Gazetteer just calls it a "booming commercial zone situated east of Soho and south of Bloomsbury." It gives an exact figure of 10,645 for the population which seems to be the sum of "Camden's Holborn and Covent Garden ward". But Holborn is not Covent Garden, is it?

Warden (talk) 06:52, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

I made a brief comment about this in the talk archive once upon a time. There is a veritable grey area, immediately to the (north) east of Drury Lane, containing Freemason's Hall on Great Queen Street, the entrance to the New London Theatre on Parker Street, the City Literary Institute on Keeley Street, and the Covent Garden Community Association on Macklin Street. Many sources will list these as Covent Garden, while very few will list these as part of Holborn, despite them being part of the Holborn and St. Pancras constituency. These places are within the Holborn and Covent Garden Ward (see Camden.gov's website or [1]). Either the Holborn and Covent Garden Ward doesn't include any part of Covent Garden at all, or these places are in Covent Garden. The latter I think.

The Westminster map of the Covent Garden Conservation Area[2] shows in great detail how it excludes these places, including Freemason's Hall and the Fortune Theatre. It also puts half of Neal Street on a north east boundary. Of course that's just the Conservation Area but the two maps are well aligned.

In short you are looking at common usage vs. official boundaries. If you ask Westminster they will probably say it's all theirs. The conservation area is all theirs. If you ask Camden about their Ward they will claim the north of Covent Garden as their own. In common usage, it can be said to extend up to the corner of Kingsway and High Holborn, but many will stop at the Westminster boundary as it's, well, an official boundary. -- zzuuzz ^(talk) 08:47, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

Yes, it's an interesting question. The area described in the article is the area that is commonly described as being within Covent Garden, with the firmest outward boundaries defined. The historic Covent Garden is defined by the Strand, Martins, Long Acre and Drury - it expanded so that the area to the north is now included. I think what is needed is an amendment of the wording to take this into account, along with some suitable sourcing. It looks like I chose a source for the historic area, but didn't grab one for the modern expansion. I'll see what I can come up with. SilkTork *^{Tea time} 14:33, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

Robert Thorne's book has an explanation at the start of the historic boundary and how it has spread north. He doesn't pin the point at which it did start spreading north, but I do recall that Francis Russell was buying up land on the north of Long Acre, and that was when the Bedford Estate starting to move north out of the original gift. I did research that, but felt it was getting into too much intricate detail for the general reader so didn't use it. I could dig it up if it was felt to be of interest. There's stuff on the condition of the houses, and the legal battles Russell went through. SilkTork *^{Tea time} 18:15, 6 June 2011 (UTC)