Talk:County Dublin

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Merge discussion[edit]

I realise the "County Dublin" v "Dublin Region" has been discussed before but having two quite similar articles is not the solution and as far as I can see violates WP:FORK.

As far as I see it "County Dublin" is the common name and "Dublin Region" is the official name for the same place. — Blue-Haired Lawyer t 14:46, 10 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

How many people search for "Dublin Region" as opposed to "County Dublin"? County Dublin is the common name by far, also historically its all County Dublin. Dublin Region is a recent local govt term. Snappy (talk)
I'll take it you agree with me then as I propose merging Dublin Region into County Dublin. — Blue-Haired Lawyer t 21:59, 15 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I do. Snappy (talk) 22:10, 15 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The Dublin Crest...[edit]

Hi guys, I'm looking at this crest on the Dublin page, and I'm confused. I have never seen this crest before. I know obviously the GAA have their own crests, so usually crest's shown on Wikipedia are official crests, i.e. county council crest, one's shown at county borders etc. But Dublin doesn't have one unifying county council, and even the Lord Mayor has a different crest to any of those. Could someone please tell me where this crest comes from and what it is used for. Thanks, The Free Editor Anyone Can Cite (talk) 12:23, 4 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Apparently it was the crest of Dublin County Council before it was abolished. It might be preferable to:
  1. use the crests of the four authorities,
  2. use the GAA crest which is the only one which ever applied to the whole county,
  3. use the rather ammoniac looking logo of the Dublin Regional Authority [1],
  4. use for one currently there notwithstanding abolition, or
  5. use none. — Blue-Haired Lawyer t 14:57, 4 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

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Does County Dublin include the city of Dublin[edit]

I recently edited the second and third sentences to read, "The traditional county includes the city of Dublin. Until 1994, County Dublin (excluding the city) was a local government area; in that year, the former county was abolished and divided into three modern counties of Dún Laoghaire–Rathdown, Fingal and South Dublin." Laurel Lodged queried how the city of Dublin could be part of the traditional county, if it was always administered separately. After some back and forth on my talk page, I concluded that we weren't going to reach an agreement between ourselves, and other views might be needed to reach a consensus. I believe these are the two views (do correct me if I'm misrepresenting):

  • There are 32 traditional counties of Ireland, of which 26 are in the Irish state. In the case of the traditional counties of Dublin, Cork and Galway, these include more than one local government area. This was previously the case with Limerick, Tipperary and Waterford. While the Local Government Acts define the counties of Ireland as being separate from the cities (also also from the two cities and counties), the traditional counties continue in use as descriptive terms. For example, it its list of towns or urban areas from the 2022 census, the CSO describes Dublin city and its suburbs as being in Counties Dublin and Meath. Similarly, it describes Balbriggan as being in County Dublin.
  • The traditional counties are the areas which were always administered as such, previously called administrative counties, and before that as judicial counties. As such, County Dublin never included the city of Dublin, which since medieval times has been administered separately from its county area (whether termed a county corporate, county borough, or city). Therefore, the city of Dublin is not part of the "traditional county of Dublin".

Iveagh Gardens (talk) 11:40, 12 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • If I may re-state the issue:
  • The area of the island of Ireland may be defined by reference to 32 traditional counties and six (at least) corporate cities.
  • The geographical remit and jurisdiction of the two entities do not overlap for executive administration, legislative or judicial purposes. Each entity operated independently within its geographic remit / boundary.
  • In the RoI, notwithstanding that some counties and corporate cites have been abolished or merged or new entities created, there is still use made of the traditional definitions for some descriptive purposes. Laurel Lodged (talk) 13:09, 12 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion[edit]

In support of the second stated position, I quote from the Government of Ireland Act 1920 which states: "Northern Ireland was defined as "the parliamentary counties of Antrim, Armagh, Down, Fermanagh, Londonderry and Tyrone, and the parliamentary boroughs of Belfast and Londonderry", and Southern Ireland was defined as "so much of Ireland as is not comprised within the said parliamentary counties and boroughs". Northern Ireland, amounting to six of the nine counties of Ulster, was seen as the maximum area within which Unionists could be expected to have a safe majority. This was in spite of the fact that in the last all Ireland election (1918 Irish general election) counties Fermanagh and Tyrone had Sinn Fein/Nationalist Party (Irish Parliamentary Party) majorities.[2]". Thus it was necessary to define Northern Irelland by reference both to the counties and the cities. The same would have been true of the Free State had they chosen to positively define it. Laurel Lodged (talk) 13:38, 12 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ "'Geographical loyalty'? Counties, palatinates, boroughs and ridings". History Ireland. Retrieved 4 July 2021.
  2. ^ The Irish Election of 1918 (Report). Northern Ireland Elections. Retrieved 31 August 2022. {{cite report}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |authors= (help)
I could cite any number of pieces of legislation, from Westminster days to last year, to tell us that administratively, counties and cities are separate. In that, the Government of Ireland Act 1920 tells us something similar to the Local Government Act 2001 (as amended) division of counties, cities, and cities and counties.
My contention is the term "traditional county" refers to something other than as they are defined in law, whether by the Local Government Acts (either 1898 or 2001), or in parliamentary terms, and that the traditional counties are sufficiently in use, including by state bodies such as the CSO to include the city of Dublin within County Dublin that to exclude that understanding amounts to editorialising of our own. Iveagh Gardens (talk) 14:18, 12 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Iveagh Gardens: I think that this another case where it is important to remember that en.wp policy is to rely on secondary sources.
Sure, legally the cities have long been separate from their epnmous counties, but for geographical purposes the common usage in reliable sources has long been to use the term "County Foo" as including the city, less specifically noted as an exception. As IG rightly notes, even state bodies such as the CSO (there are many others) follow this usage when describing the geograpical area. Any idea that legal precision overrides common usage in both primary and secondary sorces is WP:OR.
The distinction between elgal and common usage should be noted prominentl in the articles on those cities and their counties, and in oter articles where the legal distinction is directly relevant; but we shoud not otherwise deviate from the common usage. BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 14:44, 12 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
(edit conflict) I agree with Iveagh Gardens: Wikipedia is not a bureaucracy, and usage is determined by common usage and common sense, not by pieces of legislation. I can find any number of maps showing the 32 counties of Ireland, but not a single one showing "32 counties and six (at least) corporate cities". Scolaire (talk) 15:05, 12 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
If I may ask, what is a "traditional county"? Is it an administrative area (of which there are 34 plus six (at least) cities) or a geographic area?
From an administration perspective I think it's pretty irrefutable that the boundaries of local government administrative areas do not cover the same area as what are traditionally accepted 32 counties of the island, and so Dublin City is distinct from County Dublin. But County Dublin doesn't exist as an administrative area, it was replaced by 3 counties, Dún Laoghaire–Rathdown, Fingal and South Dublin. Therefore it's an apples to oranges comparison.
From a geographic perspective, it's commonly accepted (CSO, AnPost, GAA etc as mentioned by @BrownHairedGirl) that there are only 32 counties and in that case Dublin City is just a settlement within County Dublin. Cashew.wheel (talk) 15:33, 12 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I'd happily leave out the term traditional county myself, it's something of a term we've adopted on Wikipedia to make this distinction from the administrative areas. We could replace the second sentence, "The traditional county includes the city of Dublin" with "It includes the city of Dublin, the capital city of Ireland". Iveagh Gardens (talk) 15:42, 12 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
"traditional county" is not some sort of wiki-neologism. It gets lots of hits in this search of Google Books. BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 15:55, 12 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Good to know! I ought to have checked that before making a sweeping statement! Iveagh Gardens (talk) 16:00, 12 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Poll[edit]

  • No - County Dublin does not include the city of Dublin. Laurel Lodged (talk) 13:11, 12 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Yes. Anybody in Dublin city is also in County Dublin. Scolaire (talk) 15:05, 12 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Yes County Dublin includes the city of Dublin. Iveagh Gardens (talk) 15:35, 12 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Yes As a geographic county, Dublin includes the city. Cashew.wheel (talk) 15:42, 12 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Broadly, yes. For most geographical purposes, County Dublin includes the city of Dublin. For some topics such as local governemnet, the legal distinction may need to be clarified. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 15:58, 12 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Yes, County Dublin includes the city of Dublin. Spleodrach (talk) 16:49, 12 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Yes, County Dublin includes Dublin city. BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 13:37, 14 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Yes; if you're in Dublin city you're in County Dublin. ser! (chat to me - see my edits) 14:05, 15 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Yes. On sources, as noted in the discussion above, when the county structure is shown, in any one of hundreds of volumes, the 32 counties are almost all that is shown, with no attempt to carve out inter-county Belfast, or Dublin, Cork, Galway, Limerick, inter-county Waterford, etc. The many different administrative subtleties are a separate matter. On the WP:COMMON issue, try this question on virtually anyone in or from Ireland... SeoR (talk) 23:24, 17 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Yes, Dublin city is within the county. From the CSO to Govt mandated lockdowns, "County Dublin" meaning County + City remains common currency. Jacobfrid (talk) 00:14, 28 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

2022 Census - Migration[edit]

In contrast to previous years, I received confirmation from the CSO that they will not be publishing "Country of Birth" at Local Authority level beyond the three main groups (UK, Poland and India) anytime soon, if at all. Instead of just leaving this section outdated, or removing it altogether, I used what was available - namely Citizenship. Hence the change in approach from what was there previously. Jacobfrid (talk) 14:40, 30 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Source for Ethnicity[edit]

Can we get a source for this ethnicity data and hyperlink for where exactly this data came from? Cannot find the exact page for where this data originated on the Irish Central Statistics Office. Thanks

Ethnicity[edit]

According to the Central Statistics Office, in 2022 the population of County Dublin self-identified as:

  • 80.4% White (68.0% White Irish, 12.0% Other White Background, 0.4% Irish Traveller)
  • 5.8% Asian
  • 3.0% Mixed background
  • 2.2% Black
  • 8.5% Not Stated

By ethnicity, in 2022 the population was 80.4% white. Those who identified as White Irish constituted 68.0% of the county's population, and Irish Travellers accounted for a further 0.4%. Caucasians who did not identify as ethnically Irish accounted for 12.0% of the population. Giantsfann48 (talk) 19:39, 26 February 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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