Talk:Communist Party of Greece/Archive 1

It was founded as SEKE (sosialistiko ergatiko komma Elladas) and participated in the second international for a couple of years before becoming communist and changing name.

Indeed. I intend to write something about this and Abraham Benaroya in the (not-so-near) future). In the meanwhile, be bold and make the changes you suggest on this article. Etz Haim

logo better than sticker

I think the KKE logo should be placed instead of that sticker.

Too much Anti-Communist starch!

Rastapopoulos said: "This is a very sanitized "party-line" description. I added the bit about KKE's ambivalence to join the resistance during the period the Hitler-Stalin pact was in effect. Also there is no mention of the fate of some of the leaders of KKE (one, in particular, "committed suicide" in the USSR). There is no mention of the Stalinist purges on former comrades (eg the "untimely demise" of scores of Greek Troskyites in the hands of KKE members). Also, the Greek civil war is simplistically described a fight between resistance fighters and British backed right-wingers...in brief the article is one sided and leaves quite a lot to be desired.Rastapopoulos 08:13, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

Well, you know what to do...--Damac 08:43, 5 May 2006 (UTC)"

Let's see: The Communist Party of Greece is a Stalinist Party that its only effort was to kill or destroy its members and its country. It had anti-patriotic positions which led to similar actions during all phases of modern greek history!

Is that so? I would very much like someone to explain how come such a dispicaple party can hold for 90 years? How became the leader of the greek resistance against the Nazi-Fasist occupation during 1941-1944. Whith what strength and human resource could fight a Civil War in the whole country against the British - US puppets? Why it was bound for 40 years with thousands of its members executed and one hundret thousand in -prison for no less than 10 years ( 1946-1958 and 1967-1973)?

Well, silly people those greeks! A party led by the "Slayer" Stalin, could bring them in strikes and an 8 hour day work become true. Such a dispicaple party, could give the fight in the streets and pension became reality for all greeks. Such a small fraction of a small fraction of the greek left, with no allies, could call into arms 150.000 people during the Nazi-Fasist occupation of 1940-1944, multiplied its members from 2000 in 1940 ( with more than 1000 imprisoned by the dictatorship of the Fasist - British ally goverment of Metaxas) to 800.000 by 1944, the day that Greece was liberated. This modern Slayers, the Communists, could become ally with 2.000.000 of Greek citizens and form EAM that led the liberation fights during all those years. And what is more the "rebelion against the State" as the right-wing historians wants to call the fight against then new invadors ( British and US) was sustained for 3 years with more that 30.000 fighters, a goverment and almost half of the country controled by this goverments rules.

Oh, now I understand why 100.000 were imprisoned, why the NAZI colaborators, X-members and tagmatasfalites were not brought to justice! Because they were fighting against these human slayers, the communists!!! Good job lads! Great!

Question is simple now: Did KKE fought (and still fighting) for a better society, or is founded and still exists to cause crimes? If we follow the main book tha wiki is refering, communists have to be burned to fire. But peoples fight has different story to tell...

D.

This page appears to have been written by a right-wing propagandist. The KKE is presented as nothing more than a band of thugs without any other intent that to destroy Greece. This is typical right-wing slanderous propaganda. The people who wrote this article are the same (ideologically at least) as those who truly betrayed Greece and not only did not fight the fascist invaders but also joined them in the plight and rape of Greece – Nazi Collaborationists attempting to rewrite history via wikipedia.

These people sided with the Nazis (when they figured it suited there selfish and murderous interests best) and later, after the liberation of Greece, (to which the sacrifice of the lives of thousands of KKE members, partisans and sympathisers greatly contributed), they joined the new invaders, UK + USA, and formed another dictatorship to oppress the Greek people, and murder communists by the thousands. A regime which according to this pathetic article was legitimate (a legitimate fascist regime :-)).

Ironically, if it wasn’t for the efforts and sacrifices of the KKE (and others), there might not even exist bourgeois democracy in Greece today.

The article needs serious revision for it to become something more than just bad quality propaganda.JustMe —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.192.60.213 (talk) 14:15, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

This is Wikipedia, so feel free to edit. However please read and understand wiki NPOV policies first: your assertion that people who edited this article are Nazi collaborators is certainly not NPOV...Rastapopoulos 14:31, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Ambivalence?

During the invasion of Greece in 1940, the KKE was banned and its leadership imprisoned. In October 31, three days after the war started, Secretary General Nikos Zahariades sent a letter from the prison, which was published in the party's newspaper, calling all communists to defend the country.

As for "eventually joined the resistance", I removed it because EAM-ELAS was actually the first resistance organization to be formed...

Yes, Ambivalence! (although that term does imply free will...)

As alienating as it might be for KKE supporters, the party at first did nothing to help defend the country from the invading Italians and Germans. Why? Simply because the USSR and the Axis countries were de facto allies at the time, as per the Molotov - Ribbentropp pact of August 23 1939.

Zahariadis's “patriotic” letter you mention was disavowed by the party. He was even accused of releasing it to win the favor of Maniadakis and be released from prison. According to the London based / Soviet-funded newspaper World News and Views (December 14 1940), the letter was fabricated by the Metaxas regime -- the article also stated that KKE did not support the war, which it considered to be a feud between imperialist opponents (Andrew L. Zapantis, Greek Soviet Relations 1917-1941, 1983).

On November 16 1940, a second letter was released by Zahariadis which accused the Greek army of waging a “fascist” and “imperialistic war” and appealed to the USSR for peace mediation. The KKE Central Committee (December 7) called upon Greek soldiers to desert their ranks and overthrow the government. In a third letter (January 1941), Zahariadis reiterated the latter, and reasserted KKE’s somewhat bizarre position for the secession of Greek Macedonia from Greece.

The Molotov - Ribbentropp pact caused understandable confusion to many KKE party members at the time. In his memoirs, KKE cadre Yiannis Manousakas mentions how some KKE officials expected the Nazi invaders to be allies and liberators: “the Germans will not bombard us, because the mustached-one (Stalin) told them not to do so, they are communists there (Germany), they are his (Stalin's) own people!” (Έμφύλιος στή σκιά της Άκροναυπλίας - Έκδόσεις "Δωδώνη - 1986)

The Greek communist party’s pacifist position was finally reversed once Germany surprise-attacked the USSR on June 22 1941. Then, and only then, did the KKE call upon the Greek people to resist the fascist and Nazi invaders. Their position was was once again dictated from abroad. EAM-ELAS was eventually formed thereafter.Rastapopoulos 11:30, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

this is not true. even before the nazis attack to ussr, communists formed epitropi ethnikis sotirias and metopo ethnikis sotirias,and other organizations of resistance against nazis.Do not forget that hundreds of communists were imprisoned from the fascist regime of Metaxas in akronafplia. Many of these communists managed to escape and immmediately organize resistasnt groups.Communists fighted against Italian and German forces from the very first moment. On the contrary most of the old political parties left the country and came back only after Greece was free. Zachariades letter seemed to have played a great role in the willingness of greek people to resist.Do not forget that Greece was the only occupied country from nazis that did not form and send army against russians.

This is quite a complex matter

First of all, I agree that it was the will of the cpsu that the party would not join the war. It is also true that confusion existed among the party's officials, considering 1)their until that time scarce political and communist education 2)the fact that few of them were actually not in jail and 3)that the soviet union, where some of the party's officials escaped, through radio transmissions intervened in the party's decisions.

there is no published version of the second letter of zahariadis; the archives never refer to it. It was probabaly transmitted by radio (if you are aware of a printed version plz notify me)

the third letter you refer to i have never heard of; asking about it, all the info i got state that it is highly unlikely that it was published by the party. after the ethnical minority adjustments in macedonia, the party seldom referred to a macedonian problem.

Zahariades never actually acknowledged the second letter. More importantly, it wasn't acknowledged by anyone that the party influenced.

About the resistance: It is an undisputed fact that Thanasis Klaras was at Larissa during March, where he was sent by the party to recruit members for EAM-ELAS. The appearance of Klaras in the region is reported even by police reports; and it would be quite extraordinary for a wanted Klaras to have vacations in Larissa during 1941. Consequently the formation of EAM-ELAS was decided before the German Invasion.

In conclusion I believe that the fact that no communist denied service in the war, following any party statement plus the acts of Klaras prove my statements.

My intentions are not to make all party actions look perfect; I would never deny its role in the treaty of varkiza, or it being a soviet puppet from time to time. Consider however, that there are numerous versions of the party's history, each from a different pov. There's Manousakas' pov, Lazarides pov but also hundreds of other members povs that disagree. For the current length of the article, I believe that sticking to some basic facts is enough. I intent however to write a full article, where such statements would fill a more-than-few sections

Rastapopoulos's editing of editing

Rastapopoulos wrote:

"1. First of all the civil war was not a war between ELAS against monarchist forces, but against the government. Non Communists af all stripes (including republicans, monarchists) as well as non-Stalinist leftists fought on the side of the government.

2. Yes, the British sided with the Greek government. But how can you say this and hide the fact that ELAS was also backed militarily by Greece's communist northern neighbors? When Tito broke off with Stalin, Yugoslavia stopped training and supporting ELAS/DS guerillas, which was decisive for the outcome of the civil war.

3. Your contention that the Anglo-Americans occupies Greece may sound be self-evident to a Stalinist, but would insult just about everyone else's intelligence.

4. Who raped whom and who shaved whose head is tabloidal and really debases the discussion. Heinous crimes were committed on both sides. You cannot just highlight the victims of one side and ignore the victims og the other!

Please lets try to respect peoples' intelligence and keep things balanced and NPOV! Rastapopoulos 12:55, 9 December 2005 (UTC)"

1. Civil War is Civil War between two goverments of the same nation! This so called "uprising" of the KKE against the legal goverment holds no water as the goverment was firstly appointed by the British forces, then "elected" on the "elections" of 1946 and constantly supported by US and British forces, German colaborators and of cource the greek Capital. On the other side you had people forces with different prespective of govermental power. If you try to return to the theory of "Communist Uprising", then "lets try to respect peoples' intelligence and keep things balanced"

Your unreferenced insinuations about elections of 1946 being rigged and of Greece being ruled by German collaborators and greek "Capital" reflects your Marxist totalitarian dogma. It would hold water at a KNE Festival but not at Wikipedia Rastapopoulos 07:44, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Well, lets see: 'I pledge my legeon to Adolf Hitler' was the oath of X regiments, the greeks that colaborated with NAZI in the military field ! Those were the base of the "goverment" army! Ok, they were not just German colaborators. They were colabarotors of the highest bitter - Germans were there bosses during 1941-1944. Dkace

The X organization was formed during the war by G. Grivas, and was in liason with the Greek government in exile. It was undoubtedly pro-monarchist and anti-communist. I have no sympathy for X, as I am not monarchist but Democratic, so I have no intention to defend it. However, in all fairness, although its opponents accused it of having been a collaborationist, butthere is no evidence to that effect, as is mentioned by a fairly NPOV article in Kathimerini (http://news.kathimerini.gr/4dcgi/_w_articles_ell_2_03/06/2007_229281). And in any case, it was a small group, certainly not the bulk of the Greek Army under George Papandreou, which included non-marxists of all stripes and not only monarchists, including democratic resistance fighters such as EDES. Rastapopoulos 14:20, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Of cource! X tradors along with a few high ranked police officers and policemen were all on the side of the greek people suffering from the occupation. That is why 2.000.000 people endered the ranks of EAM and were giving the fight in any street or field of Greece. Grivas, G. Papandreou, Gonatas, Evert, all find common ground after liberation by the forces of ELAS and replaced the NAZIs with the British! Dkace

Please provide references to mainstream historians (not KKE members or nazis) that claim that Greece was occupied by the British! Rastapopoulos 13:10, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Start reading Mazauer - if he is not to Communist for you - and the term occupation will pop in your brain. Dkace

2. Explain this: untill September 1948, DSE had politic, military and financial control of 70% Peloponissos ( I am sure you can read this in Tsakalotos memoires and read between the lines.)Last time I checked the map, Peloponissos has no borders with Yugoslavia, Albania, or Bulgaria!!!

So what? Are you implying that the DSE guerillas were not trained, armed and financed by Greece's totalitarian Soviet-controlled neighbors? Rastapopoulos 07:44, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

It is DSE fighters. Before the Greek Civil war the Yogoslavians, the Albanian and the Bulgarian partizans had formed together with ELAS a joined command center for the Balcan area. So, when the new invadors arrived - that is the British - they of cource helped and aid the Democratic Army of Greece against the new non(?)-fasist invasion.Explain Peloponissos control first. Dkace

This argument is as ridiculous as if one were to argue that the Greek Army was not supported by the British because the UK does not share common borders with Greece!!! Wake up and smell the coffee: the Greek army *was* armed and trained by the Brits just like the ELAS/DS guerillas *were* armed and trained by the Soviet Union via their puppet states north of Greece. It was a civil war only to the extent that Greeks were killing Greeks. All similarities end there! Rastapopoulos 14:20, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

a. I return all this low level inssault like "ridiculous" and other. You are loosing your temper - are you running out of arguments? b. Tell me how it is possible to send 30.000 troops in a foreign ground, thousands kilometers away from their original location without any mean of transportation on a Civil War which a child can understand its special features: No fight line! The enemy is - can be- will be next to you! Please, read first Tsakalotos memoires ( Tsakalotos being the Chief of Staff of the Morch -Fasist Army). You will learn many things about fighting a Civil War Dkace

I did not say that you are ridiculous, but that your argument is: indeed, you have mixed the dates up of the Molotov Ribbentrop treaty. The idea that the communists lost steam and were eventually defeated has been refered to by many historical accounts, including books by Chris Woodhouse and Richard CloggRastapopoulos 13:10, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

I am glad that you "clear" and "direct" answer is covering my point for Civil War "b. Tell me how it is possible to send 30.000 troops in a foreign ground, thousands kilometers away from their original location without any mean of transportation on a Civil War which a child can understand its special features: No fight line! The enemy is - can be- will be next to you" That is to remind to you and the readers my point for fighting a Civil War in a certain country boarders.

Again, are you suggesting that the "DS" received no military aid / training from the north?Rastapopoulos 13:05, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

DSE did received aid in terms of heavy weaponry and ammo mainly from Yogoslavia and some of these ammo where Soviet equipment. These weapons were held - as all relevant reports from high rank officers of DSE indicate- on the Main HQ of DSE in Vitsi and Grammos as it was impossible to move mass loads of weapons all over Greece. As explained in another post in the Greek Civil war there was no certain battle line. Most of the weaponry of the DSE fighters was arms and ammo hidde it before the Varkiza treaty ( 10-15%), weapons gained from small or big fights in all territories ( Capture of Karpenisi 1947, Capture of Karditsa 1948, Capture of Zacharw 1947 (twice), 1948) First Battle of Grammos 1948 ( 70 days with retreat to Vitsi HQ ground and counter attack to Grammos). First groups of DSE fighters were armed from police and MAY ( Self-Defence Units of Field Ground), people that had originally nothing to do with the Civil War and were just peasants with no will to fight on any side. There are reported cases ( not more than 10% in total is my estimation) that these farmers were former EAM members supporting DSE troops. Further more, as Police forces were mostly manned by german colaborators and X-guerillas, they had no moral advantage during battle against DSE fighters that were fighting for strong believes. The above can be easily proven - but not uniquely - by the fact that the future of 3rd Battalion of DSE - Peloponissos forces, were killed one by one after the last big fight of Zacharw in 1948 as they supply units couldn't capture enough ammo to sustain the 20.000 soldiers in the region and 3 attempts to supply the DSE forces from northern mainland or the islands of Ionio were not succesfull. So, the Battalion had no fate against 80.000 heavily armed troops from the Monarch - Fasist Goverment of Athens led by General Tsakalotos. As General writes in his memoires, the US advisors urged him to unlease an attack on Peloponnisos otherwise US couldn't spend any more forces or money to the Greek Civil War.

In conclusion, yes DSE accepted military aid from other brother-armies, but this help wasn't the main power that sustained this War.80.76.56.51 13:42, 17 September 2007 (UTC) Dkace

3." Mon General, you can start WW3 from Greece" said Frederiki ( the so called "Queen of Greece")to the American Field Marshal tha came to inspect the progress on the greek Civil war in 1948 and the outcome of the US aid on military advisors and military support.

I have no sympathy for the late Queen. How do you feel about the KKE's position against resistance to the Axis powers war before Hitler invaded the USSR? How do you feel about KKE's pacifist stance vis-a-vis the Nazis due to the Molotov-Robbentrop treaty? Rastapopoulos 07:44, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

The Chief Leader of ELAS, Aris Velouchiwtis was a low rank officer of the Greek Army in the Greek - Italian War. He was member of KKE central comitee and he managed to return from the front with most of his unit and there weapons in order to start guerilla war against the occupatiors. This was the issue with the few non-imprisoned members of KKE that fought the war in the mountains of PINDOS together with the rest of the greeks. The fasist METAXA goverment didn't allow the imprisoned communists to fight and delivered them to the NAZI as soon as they surrendered Greece to them. Why? but they were communists!!! In Creta, when British troops decided that they leave the island, Communis prisoners escaped from police custody and joined the Greek armed forces defending the airport and other locations. The theory of "pacifist KKE, due to Molotov-Robbentrop treaty" can't explain how the Communist party in Greece urged for an anti-fascist front in 1935 and insisted on this all the 4 years of METAXA dictatorship that surrendered Greece to the British plans for buffering Egypt and Middle East colonies.Dkace

Aris Velouchiotis (who was later disowned by KKE and who died under tragic circumstances, betrayed by his party) obviously defied his party instructions by fighting in the Greek-Italian war. You assert that the Molotov-Ribbentrop "theory" is refuted by the fact that KKE was anti-fascist in 1935. This argument is utterly ridiculous, since the Molotov-Ribbentrop was signed in 1939!!! As a result of the treaty, communists in Greece and elsewhere (notably in France) were strategic allies of Hitler until Hitler attached the USSR. In his memoirs, Greek communist Iannis Ioannidis wrote about a certain fellow called Maggos (a regional communist cadre) who said the following amazing thing when Greece was being bombed by the axis: "The Germans will not bomb us. The moustached-one (Stalin) will not let them, he said that they are communists there (in Germany)" (Γιάννης Ιωαννίδης, ΑΝΑΜΝΗΣΕΙΣ, p. 63). Do you believe that when the Greek people said NO to the Italians, through the mouth of Metaxas, that they were "surrendering Greece to the British plans"? That was the official position of both Goebbels and KKE at the time! Rastapopoulos 14:20, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Aris Velouchiotis, or Thanasis Klaras was an old member of KKE, participating on its Central Comitee. He only once defined the party's orders - and that was after the Varkiza treaty. Aris Velouchiotis was the Chief of Staff in modern terms of the Greek Partizan Army, ELAS. Guerilla warfare has its own rules, especially if guerillas are not just a few people struggling for their lives, but a few hundrets of thousands building a new life. Left winged guerillas organizations has a three-men command starting from platoon level up to General Command. The military commander ( in ELAS which was formed after the formation of the Greek Army before the war ) more than 800 officers joint its rank with General Sarafis one of the first recruted officers. The General Commander of Creta joined a few months later and he was appointed as General Commander of the Central Comand Post. Second on equal rank in each unit was the political advisor, appointed by EAM. His task was to confirm the political benefits and loses from a military strike, to keep up the moral of the unit, to make sure that the unit is understanding and helping the commanding authority to each maximum. Finally the decision was up to the Captain, a higher rank partizan who was appointed to each unit because of both his political and military knowledge.

Under this formation ELAS became from a unit of 40 men to a regular army of 150.000 ( 50.000 being reserves, supply line personel, hospital personel). It had cavalary, saboteur, marine and amfibius units working next to full formation Greek regiments. If -on your read of the history - Greek people are murderers and slayer communists and only those few like Grivas, Papandreou, Damaskinos, Evert, Tsolakooglou, were the blossoms of the greek Sociaty, then you don't belong to the people but to each oppressors, whoever they are: Fasists, Monarchists, "Democrats" Turks, Nazis, name them.Dkace

I believe that at the time Greeks killed Greeks. Life had lost all value, people cut each other's heads with open cans (κονσερβοκούτια) and attrocities were committed from all sides. A sad and unheroic moment of modern Greek history. Yes, I would like to let the wounds heal, but not at the expense of historical accuracy: KKE, which raised its arms against its fellow Greeks in an attempt to install a Soviet-style regime, has been righly forgiven in the name of national reconciliation by the more politically-correct democratic governments of the metapolitefsi. But that does not mean that arguments demonizing those who saved Greece from Stalinist totalitarianism can go unanswered!!!Rastapopoulos 13:10, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Your point of view on this matter is extremely simplified and I believe this is what causes all the mix up on your line of arguments and finally your conclusions; Of cource Greeks were killing Greeks, as Vietnameze were killing Vietnamize, Koreans were killing Koreans, citizens of San Salvador were killing each other, Colombians are still killing Colombians etc, etc, etc. I don't use the three first nationalities out of the stack. CIA has admitted - and that is also in video - "NAM: The true Story of VIETNAM", that the anti-partizan tactics that they succesfully used in Greece and Korea were not able to win the war in VIETNAM. This came as a suprise to the US military. Hmmmm, Civil War I said...But then how is CIA involved on this? Another issue whereas ifone can accept a "legal" and goverment against "uprising communist rebels" or two goverments with different political believes and state programs. Dkace

4. History has many ways to be written, and much more to be read. Photos on the other hand is another story. Nobody has fotos of DSE fighter holding heads of monarc-fasist army soldiers. On the other hand, a huge collection of photographs all over greece show thousends heads of DSE fighters hanging over their slayers.

What is a "monarc-fasist" soldier? Are you refering to the Greek soldiers who fought Mussolini and offered the Allies their first victory against the Axis at the same time KKE was urging Greeks not to fight in an "imperialistic war" against Italy? As for flaunting photo collection of dead Greeks communists or republicans, do you really feel it makes a difference? I have seen photos of dozens of "monarco fascist" children and women civilians slaughtered by the DSE and thrown in a well at Meligala, but flaunting them would be a sensationalistic and populist tabloid approach but would do nothing to help heal the wounds of that nightmarish period in Greek history. Rastapopoulos 07:44, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Monarch-fasist Soldier: The Greek citizen that is fighting in the Greek Civil war on the ranks of the army controled by the goverment that was appointed by the British General Scoby and led to battle by the greek "King". In a Civil war things are quite different than a dictatorship or a Junta or anything else. My whole post is to clarify that CIVIL WAR between a nation is different in many ways than any other war. But 50 years of propaganda have destroyed many people's perspection on this "details". There is no similarity with the Greek - Italian war, were greeks fighiting with few equipment and tradors in the Joint Staff in Athens against Mussolini fasist troops. MEATAXAS in his memoires after the capture of Koritsa writes: " I can't undersand the why greeks are so enthousiastic". Dkace

Especially for Meligala dry well: It is well known that this Capital-village of Messinia, in the heart of the Messinia's fields was the base of a X regiment, the NAZI armed colaborators acting as "Regular" Greek Army during occupation. They were appointed there by the NAZI commander of Kalamata in order not to invoke Wermacht in the mainland of Messinia were ELAS had control. During there stay there they terrorized the population, they were taking prisoners - most of them were executed by them. The sortest way to burry them was this dry well. After the withdrawn of the NAZI Wermacht, the leftovers of X guerillas, citizen acted as NAZI colaborators during the occupation, and parts of the police also colaborating with the NAZIs were barricated in Meligala and gave a fight with the Regular Greek Army, ELAS. After the end of the battle, and for those that there was no claim for there body from both sides, they were barried in this well. In '90s all the bodys from the well were retrieved - 720 approximately, between them 7 women and 5 children and 2 elder persons( if I recall correctly). Since then more things were reveiled in the area for the actions of X, as since the Civil War, the right wing claimed Meligala to be the place of masaqure by the communists of thousands of civilians. Daily News paper "Eleutherotypia" in its pages of "IOS" and "IOS tis KYRIAKIS" have made a very thorough presantation of al lthe above mentioned combined with all the usefull citation for those that really want to search the trouth around this issue —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.76.56.51 (talk) 11:45, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Your arguments are highly POV, and are not in line with Wiki policies. If you claim that the Greek army under the democratic George Papandreou were Nazi collaborators, and that the soviet-backed guerillas who were trying to establish a soviet-type totalitarian state in Greece (as "democratic" as Albania or Bulgaria) were in fact the only proper Greek Army, then there is no point in discussing further on such a basis. Such arguments can earn you a red ribbon or a pat in the back from a ταγάρι-wearing Knitissa at the local KNE-ODIGITIS festival, but do very little to support your arguments on an international forum such as this. And please show some respect to the dead from both sides! PS IOS has a very specific ideological slant and is certainly not a neutral point of view venue!!!Rastapopoulos 14:20, 13 September 2007 (UTC)Dkace

a. What is the line of wiki policies? I guess is documented opinions, not pure propaganda! History is a science and wiki is following this science through the help of us all. If a wiki administrator is reading this discussion I would very much like to have his opinion on the insults that Rastapopoulos is throughing from time to time.

b. As I say in may of my posts and answers, History - especially history- has many reads, but you seem to want to force your own opinion and all others through them to garbige bag. You can do it. But be carefull! You may thing you are out and instead with your moves to be in the bag and never notice it! Dkace

I have never launched an ad hominem attack on anyone. Just pointed out the fallacies in your arguments.Rastapopoulos 13:10, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Please lets try to respect peoples' intelligence and keep things balanced

Amen to that! But please, no old-fashioned Stalinist starch! Rastapopoulos 07:44, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

If we want to keep the discussion up to a certain level accusations are not appropriate. You can't dictate anyone's reaction to what is written in order to accomodate your propaganda needs. And vice - verca!Dkace

I do not like to dictate anyone's position, as I am not a totalitarian communist or fascist :) Rastapopoulos 14:20, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Bertol Brecht wrote: "Fasism is not something comming from the future, bringing new things to me.... Its rutes embrash the system and are lost in the past, its masks are changed from time to time but not its hatriot against me!..."

Even if you don't recognizing your self under the fasist mask, you wish to dictate everyones opinion, you wish all to have the same as yours - everybody else is a totalitarian communist. This is fasism! Live with it or change it. Dkace

Maybe that is why received the Stalin Peace Prize in 1955 :-) Rastapopoulos 12:57, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

How dare you, a supporter of Stalinism (as is clearky evidenved by your arguments and reasoning), insinuate that I am a fascist? If your fellow ideologues had their way, to paraphrase Pink Floyd the Wall, they would have us all shot! Rastapopoulos 13:10, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

dkaceDkace 08:31, 12 September 2007 (UTC)D.K. Ace

Well, this is true. Communists are a banch of lunatics that shoot everybody that opposes their politic line! You are quite lucky that you are still alive my friend!!! These discussions were my bread and butter during my school years, just to have fun, but are becoming quite serious 20 years later between inteligent and educated persons. Further to that it is time to learn something you obviously don't know: For the Marxist -Leninist there is no such thing as "Stalinism". This theoritical model belongs to the Cold Era propaganda against the social states. The people and the parties that have Marxism-Leninsm as a scientific tool on social and economical fields to explain the world and to suggest possible solutions af small things up to the question of political and economical power of the people are not "Stalinists". I know no-one that agrees on that, but I know plenty with same as yours attitude against left-wing and especially Communists, that like to categorise Marxists-Leninists in a simlified - and therefore a very dangarous - category of Stalinists. This in my opinion is occuring to people like you because you denie your self the benefit to be more objective and to try to see the true power that revolves the world on social and economical terms, ending up on a fasist - totalitarian opinion that everyone that claims something deferend should immediately put aside. These positions are no different of the Fasisists, the NAZIs or the buerocratic elite that was well formed during '70-'80 to the former socialistic states and today are rulling these countries as your "Democratic", 'AntiStalinist" resims.

In conclusion to all the above, I DO DARE to recognize FASIST thinking and I DO DARE to indicate that, because I do believe in the Marxist theory of human evolution; People are evolving throughout there life up to their last day. They are evolving to better or to worst. Even a conservative mind as yours, can easily understand with who to be and who to leave when it comes to the benefit of the society, regardless his/hers opinion about the people that is colaborating for a common better future. Dkace

You claim that "For the Marxist -Leninist there is no such thing as "Stalinism". This theoritical model belongs to the Cold Era propaganda": Tell that to Trotsky, who was awarded an ice-pick award in the back - oh but I forget, Trotsky was a Fascist :) How about your former comrades, who left KKE to form KKE(interior), accusing KKE of Stalinism? Agents of the cold war, or οπορτούνες (opportunists), right? Whether you like it or not, KKE refused to join other Greeks in fighting the invading Fascist Italian army, and accused that "monarchofascist" Greeks were involved in an imperialistic war dictated by the British! Let me repeat that: When the "fascists" of Metaxas fought the Fascists of Mussolini, Zachariadis was bound by the Soviet-Nazi non-intervention treaty! Once again: Greek "monarchofascists" were accused for fascism by the KKE because they defended Greece against the invading fascist Italians. Repeat: The KKE was strategically allied to the Nazis when the rest of Greeks were figting against Mussolini. Is this clear enough, or would you like me to rephrase it once more? . Άστο ρε φίλε , το γαμήσατε και ψόφησε... Rastapopoulos 12:51, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

Convinient saying...There is another URL page in the net and an email accusing the whole greek political system as Transexuals ( literally), Sissys and whatever you want. Can they back it up? No!!! But then again who cares! They say it - it has to be true!

This expanded theory that Stalin killed Trotsky in Mexico is a good one! Let's see: Trotsky, the leader of Red Army during the revolution of 1917, disagrees with the CPSU central Comitee and believes that revolution should be exported in all countries that Comintern has powers and that this should be done immediately and should led to an uprising of the workers in all parts of the world. Soviet Union should back up this effort with military aid, troops and weapons if neccessary. This is put to a prespective that revolution in USSR can't be sustained in one country, but only if Capitalism has war all over the planet, therefore it can't win. After years of fighting inside the party's organization chart, he finnaly breaks his ties with the party and founds his own fraction inside USSR in the era that USSR was at war with all possible invasions . This is '20s. He and his fraction are expeled by USSR as enemy of the people and the revolation. Now is an enemy, not the leader of Crasnaya Armee ( Red Army). He picks as his base Mexico, which had peoples movement on the run, both political and military partizans continuing the tradition of emiliano Zapata and his troops. Furthermore Mexico is extremely close to the modern center of Capitalism, USoA. Convinient choise for a revolutionaire to start his World -Wide campaign. Was he hiding? I don't think so. He was working with local unions for his target. Did he and his fraction created enemies? You tell me! The local farm owners were his first and worst. Even not member of the Communist Party he was still a revolutioner. Was he against the Mexican Communists? Most probable as he had left Comintern and by that time all Communist Parties were acting as one all over the world. Who killed him and why? Well my guess after all the above will be... of course Stalin - himself!- because Trotski and Stalin's second wife were having an affair! When you dictate something as a fact you have to go below the surface, especially when history is involved. Me tis ygeies sas80.76.56.51 14:07, 17 September 2007 (UTC)Dkace

As it is obvious, you want to believe in a fairy tail. The imprisond by the fasist goverment Nikos Zachariadis, sends a letter that the fasist goverment uses for the war effort. "...Every Town, Every Village, Every House, Every Rock,should become a fortress of the liberation fight... Nikos Zachariadis was surrendered to the NAZI invators and served the rest of the occupation years in Dahau. Now, invasion of Creta was before the Enterprise "Barbarosa", wright? How come the Communist Political Prisoners escaped custody and reported to the nearest regiment?And if Communists were like this, the Creta Commander in Chief became High Ranked Officer ( General of some rank ) of ELAS ?

Are the stub tags needed?

The article has gained some volume, are the article stub tags still needed? Sections are still stubs but the whole article? -- Michalis Famelis 17:08, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Eleutherios Stavrides

His name is missing from the past General Secretaries of KKE - I believe he served sometime during the 1920s -- but I do not have the correct dates handy. Stavrides subsequently underwent an ideological volte face, and proceeded to write a highly critical account of KKE's history.

Claim by former King Constantine false

It is explicitly stated, in his own proclamation (diaggelma) of 13.12.1967 that explained his embracing of the installation of the junta, and in which he asked for the support of the people, that "there will be no agreement or settlement with the communists, who deliberate the national ruin." As he later tried to claim, he had mediated to G. Papandreou about the legalization of the Communist Party, in 1965 - but is it possible that he ever thought of legalizing the party which he so fervently talked against in that proclamation two years later? This is taken by all historians and journalists as evidence that this claim is false. I will try to provide specific references, but the dated proclamation above can certainly be found for anyone who cares to look.

158.130.22.21 22:14, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

Name of the language

The name of the language is Macedonian, seeing as this is an article about Greece, Macedonian Slavic would be ok I suppose to be precise, but Slavo-Macedonian is a pejorative term and liable to cause offence. Please do not revert again. I'm slightly puzzled as to why an Irish guy is pushing a Greek nationalist agenda but, meh, takes all sorts :) - FrancisTyers 07:24, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Irish yes, Greek nationalist no and a survey of my contributions and my frequent disputes with Greek nationalists would confirm that.

I first composed the list and wrote the biographical article on the subject in question and made sure that his ethnic background was mentioned. A Greek nationalist would not have done that.

My problem is using the term Macedonian for people in history before the formation of the Republic of Macedonia. As regards terms being pejorative - defined as where someone uses a term to express criticism of someone or something - this was certainly not my intention and I apologise if it did cause offence. However, what's pejorative is always down to subjective sensibilities and it is worth bearing in mind that there are people who find the terms Madeconia/Pirin Madedonia/Aegean Madedonian offensive.

Macedonian Slav is a suitable compromise but I'm expecting someone to pop up soon and oppose it on the grounds that it's ... "pejorative" --Damac 07:39, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

I decided to remove the alternative version of Tsipas' name as the his biogpraphical article goes into more detail on this. Neither was it necessary to provide a Cyrillic version as this was not done in Greek letters for the other leaders. In addition, As KKE GS, he was referred to as Tsipas and nothing else. Lists like this should be kept simple with the biographical articles going into more detail.--Damac 07:59, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

A good compromise :) I didn't accuse you of being a Greek nationalist btw ;) I was just saying that referring to the language as "Slavo-Macedonian" is a Greek nationalist thing to do. I can appreciate concerns with describing it as Macedonian prior to the formation of the Republic — it could get confusing very quickly :) — and I agree with you on that, however in that case simply "Slavic" would have sufficed. - FrancisTyers 08:06, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

If "Slavo-Macedonian" is Greek nationalist, how do you classify terms such as Skopjanai, Skopjists, Skopja worms etc.? You'd be asking for trouble if you used the term "Slavo-Macedonian" within hearing distance of the Greek nationalist. Slavic is fine but somewhat vague. --Damac 09:08, 12 April 2006 (UTC)

Merger

I oppose the merger with Panspoudastiki. Panspoudastiki is a separate organization, which clearly deserves an article of its own. That article needs some serious improvement though. --Soman 13:30, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

• Oppose. It is a seperate organisation and should be treated as such.--Damac 13:46, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
• Support merger with KNE (the CPG/KKE youth), not KKE. Panspoudastiki is not too seperate an organization to warant an article on its own, without KNE backing and guidance (imho) Panspoudastiki would not even exist. The history of Panspoudastiki is too closely related with KNE. I'd go as far as to say that Panspoudastiki had the same defining moment as KNE did, in the early 90ies when KNE was split, resulting in the formation of Neo Aristero Revma, and subsequently the same people that split from KNE, split from Panspoudastiki and formed a core of what is now known as EAAK. And what's more, there is not much more to say about Panspoudastiki itself than what there is to say about KNE. --Michalis Famelis (talk) 17:38, 15 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment: Organization might be closely politically linked, but still be organizationally separate. Panspoudastiki is clearly the student wing of KKE. But it is not a department of KNE nor KKE. It works in a separate field, and has its own history. It is a movement that plays and has played an important role in Greek campus politics, and there is certainly material enough for it to become a good article. --Soman 08:42, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
    • Even so, if we had a complete article about KNE, an article about Panspoudastiki (PKS) would be 5-6 (unique) lines long. I mean, if there are 15 things to say about KNE, there are 17 things to say about PKS, 15 of which have already been told... Unless I am missing a whole lot of things about PKS, that is. --Michalis Famelis (talk) 11:40, 16 August 2006 (UTC)
      • I don't agree. PKS would include history of student elections. That could be well more than 5-6 lines. --Soman 11:49, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

• I believe it is wrong to merge a political party with its coallitions on the labor unions or any other unions. PKS was founded by KNE as the coallition between all the students that share a common position regarding the Greek University as base and extend to any possible aspect of a student live. Nevertheless KNE are young people that work for the Social future of Greece, whereas PKS is just a political union with people that may not agree entirely with the political or strategical targets of KNE-KKE. If all coallitions are refered as the dominants party "front desk" then somebody has to explain how coalliations are formed. PKS is not KNE's front desk in the universities, as KNE is being autonomus in the student movement with its political believes. Colaboration between indepepnd students, or other student groups forms PKS.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Dkace (talk • contribs)

Elections

One can also argue that by refusing to participate in the first post-war elections, the KKE precluded its voice from the democratic debate, leaving military operations as the most obvious alternative. At the end of WWII, similar condition of near civil war had existed in Italy, France and Belgium but there, the communist parties chose to become active in the democratic procedures and the reconstruction process.

Either the above part should be removed or there should also be mentioned that the legislative of Greece was not stable, as opposed to that of France for example. The return of the King, which was supported by Churchill as he thought that he would ensure British interest in Greece, was done under some really dubious conditions, in fact the populist believe is that the voting was fraud. This and other reasons made the KKE believe that the legislative would not have been legal in case if they participate in the elections, thus KKE's refusal of participation in the election was done in order to not legitimize to what they saw as unlawful elections. Furthermore the article suggests that Greece legislative held the same intergrity as the one's of France and Italy, which was clearly not the case.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.75.239.172 (talk • contribs)

Hello, welcome to wikipedia. Please be brave and make the changes you believe should happen. --Michalis Famelis (talk) 17:20, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

template merging

is there any way to have both "Communist_Party_of_Greece" "Template:Politics_of_Greece" templates used? Mabe someone should make one of these two horizontal instead of vertical. --GrWikiMan 16:14, 30 September 2006 (UTC)

Mass emigration

About 60.000 of Communists emigrated to Soviet countries around 1949.Xx236 11:48, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

This very general. During the last year of the Civil War, that is September 1948 to September 1949, it was quite obvious to the leaders of KKE and DSE that war could not continue much longer. The main problem they had to face - apart from the war itself- was the families and relatives of the DSE fighters together with people that supporting DSE. Peloponissos was a bad example: Thousands of people were either shot, hanged, raped their families were driven away, their houses and fields were louted by the X-soldires and the right wing supporters. So the only way to guard these people was to send them on camps in Albania and Yogoslavia ( later in Romania as well). After the Colapse of Grammos on September 1948 and the return of the regiment of Florakis late 1948, more than 60.000 people ( 15.000 fighters and the rest civilians ) were distributed on all the social states, with half of them located in Soviet Union especially in Taskend. This created a problem to KKE as half of its force was left in Greece, either imprisoned or on the run, and part of the leadership with the fighting force were outband abroad. This cituation created a whole new category of problems on KKE action inside the country. 80.76.56.51 12:00, 18 September 2007 (UTC)Dkace

Stop reverting my changes

I have made some changes (suggesting references for them). Some editors keep reverting my changes, without indicating any reason (except the obvious fact that they do not like what I wright). The only time someone asked for something(references) I added them (althought the whole text is empty of references, without anyone reverting it).

Please try accepting a different opinion (I have accepted your opinions for other disputed matters). Thodoros 18:10, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

KKE - the same party over 90 years?

Hi,

Following your advise I post my point of view in your talk page.

As I understand you have study a bit of KKE history. In my opinion you missed the point of the existance of the Greek Communist party ( in particular) or any other Communist or "Communist" Party elswhere. I don't want to give a lecture - this is not my point at all- so I will be sort.

The Communist Party of Greece, was founded under the Marxist-Leninist Theory and is still under this ideology. Throughout its 90 year history, although it had turns that brought questions on its character, it never deviated from its original roots. Furthermore, KKE kept the same organization chart all those years - otherwise we couldn't refer to it as a Leninist Party.

Although KKE disolved the greek local organizations in 1950, a small underground organization was still existing in order to sustain the political line that KKE was embrashing those years for peaceful action in Greece. It never disolved the organisations in the Sosialist States and the Central Comitee of the Party was still working with headquarters in Romania. This can be found in all KKE documents but here I talk out of personal experie on these issues.

Splits and rejections of the KKE were held throughout its 90 year old history, but never a party created from KKE's split had neither the power or the same political agenta.

Last but not least, KKE members that entered the Party all these 90 years are still members of KKE and- for what is worth- these members were the katalyst that kept KKE a Marxist Leninist party on the crisis of 1991.

About Elections: Main KKE political line is the creation of coalitions based on peoples political formations and common goals. Under this respect Peoples front on '30s, EAM on '40s, EDA on 1950-1967, United Left on 1974, Synaspismos on 1988, PAME on 1998 are under the same political umbrella: Coalitions of the left winged group of citizens or parties. Even today, although "KKE" was the title in the election several small groups were also joining this effort.

Under the above prespective, KKE has a history of 90 years. You can't detach any of these years from this solid history line.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Dkace (talk • contribs)

First of all, I can understand both your and Magioladitis' arguments. Both are valid in some way and we should try and find a compromise, perhaps by looking at how parties in other countries with long legacies of splits and changes are treated on Wikipedia.

Just let me outline what I think first. The KKE of 2007 is the same KKE as the earliest version in name. To be fair to DKAce, the party has maintained continuity in terms of organisation (apart from a time during the war when its structures were practically smashed). It is widely recognised as being the same party by people from the left, far left and right in Greece, demonstrated by the fact that it is the only KKE on the scene. Other parties claim the KKE heritage, but have qualifiers (KKE-ML, MLKKE, EKKE, etc.) in their titles. Legally in Greece, the KKE is the only party entitled to the name, so we need to recognise that.

On the other hand, I disagree with the POV that DKAce puts foward that the KKE was "founded under the Marxist-Leninist Theory". The SEKE of 1918 was not Marxist-Leninist; the party only adopted this platform in 1924. Indeed, most of the people associated with the original party were subsequently expelled from the party. Today, the KKE has very little to say about the party's founder Avraam Benaroya. This shows a certain degree of discontinuity.

As regards election results, I am in favour of including all results, but highlighting where necessary that in some elections the KKE participated in a coaltion. Including the results just from 1993 does not help readers appreciate how the watershed of 1989 affected the party's performance.

We should look at how other parties are treated on Wikipedia. Take Sinn Féin for example. It was originally founded in 1905, although the party's aims then are completely different to those of the present-day Sinn Féin. Like the KKE, there are other organisations which also claim the heritage of Sinn Féin, including Republican Sinn Féin and the Workers Party of Ireland. In order to allow the article on Sinn Féin to deal with the current organisation operating under that name, a seperate History of Sinn Féin article was started. This process has to be completed, but it might be useful in the KKE case. Most people on Wikipedia want to know about the KKE of today when they look up the party here, so perhaps we could start a History of the Communist Party of Greece.

Just a final point. Going by your language, DKAce, I take it that you are a member or supported of the KKE. While your contributions are very welcome and do enhance the article, you should take note of the WP:POV. We should always be wary of what official accounts of anything say about an event. Just because the CC of the KKE said something was so does not mean it was so. The party even recognises that, demonstrated by the fact that it has had to "revise" certain standpoints it has taken over the years.--Damac 07:31, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

Well let me just write down some thoughts for the record.

a)I disagree with the fact that "KKE is the same through out its 90 year old history" as organisation. In this party's documents I have read that the 14th Congress [1993] "restored the party's character". So, for some years at least is was not the same party. Moreover, in 1958 KKE canceled all its party organisations in Greece (it had already canceled its organisations in the former SSRs since 1955) so there was no KKE for many years. More? The post-1955 guidance of KKE imprisoned Zachariades and exiled others of the pro 1955 guidance. How can these be the same parties? Ideology is not the only criteria for a party. Many parties in the modern Greek history claim to be communists or the continuation of the old KKE 1918-1955.

b)I agree with Damac that "The KKE of 2007 is the same KKE as the earliest version in name".

The example of Sinn Fein is a good one of what we have to do in Wikipedia and I never requested a split of the CPG article. I haven't check enough the articles for the CPs in the former USSR which I saw have different articles from before 1991 and post 1991 but this has to do that before 1991 we have parties which were part of the CPSU and CPs in a new country. If a split could be made would be for the party before 1956 and after that (because of the 6th Plenary Session and the establishment of a new party from the Soviets in the place of the old party).

c)My main objection is about the election results. In '20s and '30s didn't participated alone in the elections or with the title communist. (I see some exceptions for some elections in Wikipedia but I ll try to check if this really hold. I have a series of books called "KKE - Official documents" and maybe there it's mentioned something relevant). So, the first time we can really have an impression of CPG's electoral results is... in 1977. That's because after 30s we have the WWII, the formation of EDA, the Junta and in 1974 CPG participates in elections with the United Left coalition. The results since 1977, and better since 1993, give us an impression of the influence of today's CPG in Greece and it's not just a catalogue with results.

d)I find the idea of an article for the history of the CPG very difficult to be implemented. The CPG itself tried to do it and stopped in the first volume. I don't have in mind any book of a historian doing that. Of course, anyone who feels brave enough can start it always having in mind the WP:POV. -- Magioladitis 11:07, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

I am glad that we can have this conversation in here and state things clearly. I agree with Damac in most aspects of his post.I believe that the contribution of everyone that has a documented fact is needed and should be merged or compromised with another well documented fact. I also believe, that when in 180degrees contradiction then all facts should be preented equally with there sources well defined for the reader to have the finall call. I will place an example: In the edition of KKE history I read 3 weeks ago, the WWII history of the party was only that created ELAS and that ELAS killed cornal Psaros and his regiment. This distores the truth. I believe ( and this is why I left it untached) that apart from this insident, that I was about to release another version written by the key persons on this situation. But, KKE's history inside WWII was not that! I hope you get my point on this. Maybe we can expanded in more details.

Regarding history of KKE:

a) As for 14th Conference of KKE, the line "restored the party's character" is followed by a tone of pages explaining the mistakes on KKE's tactics of the past 4 years. The party didn't changed its principals neither its targets in any of the previous Conferences, 13th being the most important of those. Critisism on former policies doesn't imply rejections of the "old form" of the party.

b) Untill 1955 KKE had to reorganise its forces and deal with the new cituation: 30.000 members exhiled in SRs and the rest either imprisoned or undercovered in Greece. It was coming out of a war defeat and had to recover. This is far different from changing form or ideology. My father has been member of the CPG since 1944, exhiled in all the "Greek Colleges" of '50s and return to legal status only by 1959. Although member od EDA, he was also part of the undercovered organisation that KKE had sustained inside the Greek borders. In order to understand that you have first to understand why KKE was founded and existed. Here I come to note c:

c) SEKE was the first Socialist Party in Greece. Since 1850 have been many attemps ( BOOK: The Roots of the Greek Communist Movement, Sychroni Epoxi) but they were all partial, local and never covering all the small groups. SEKE first puts a s main target socialism and communism, and is breaking ground for a party to guide this struggle in Greece. Because SEKE soon evolved to KKE, this doesn't brake the roots that it was the first succesfull attempt of the "Communist Party Project" in Greek ground. What happened afterwards to members or even the leader of SEKE, where they ended up or what was the critisism to the CPG is another issue, doesn't affect the historical point of KKE's foundation. Same deal as in 1956, 1967,1989,1991,2001 etc. KKE, being the party of the workers in Greece, not changing its character, its political targets ( via its constitutional principles or its political program) and its actions within the greek political scene is the same 90 years now. I believe that in wikipedia, we have to present first all the historical facts, then - if this is accepted from everyone- to try and put our POV on why this or why not that.

d) KKE's Central Comitee has issued 9 volumes of KKE documents from 1918 to 1974 ( if I am not mistaken) and we expect the newest version. At the same time, an one volume book has been issued: "History txt book of KKE". This present the attitude of today's leadership against KKE's history. Although it excercise hard critisism on the mistakes and the errors made by the former CPG's CC, in no point disambolish time frames as not part of KKE's history. Critisism is one thing, and cutting roots is completely another.

e) KKE (m-l), M-L KKE etc are not denying common history and roots as KKE up to 1956. but they are different parties from this point onward, and like different parties they should be delt with. In wikipedia, we are not going to determine who is a real communist, but what is the written history of anyone.

Thank you for this opportunity, I hope we cooperate under the same spirit from this point on.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Dkace (talk • contribs)

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