Talk:Catholic devotions/Archive 1

This page is a stub. It is listed on WikiProject:Catholicism 101 as collaboration of the week beginning on July 5. There is plenty of content particular to the Catholic Church for a separate topic. Who else has the Virgin of Guadalupe, the Virgin of Knock, or the infant of Prague? Please use this talk page before blanking this article. Vaquero100 15:23, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

I do not understand why this article exists. For Euchrist, it makes sense that there is Eucharist (Catholic Church) and Divine Liturgy because there is enough content to fill those articles. But for this instance, it seems like Devotion (Christian) is such a small article that there is no need to fork content. I'd urge editors to please work on the Devotion (Christian) article, and if it starts to get at a length where breaking off the denominations makes sense, then cross that bridge then. It just seems premature to start forking content like this. Related policy: Wikipedia:Content forking. Thanks for your consideration.--Andrew c 18:38, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

I have been browsing around Catholic topics on WP the past few weeks and have finally begun to do some editing on less controversial topics. When I did a search on "Catholic devotions" I found this history. I can't understand why it is so problematic for there to be an article on Catholic devotions. Are they really that controversial? They are certainly very very different in nature from the material at Devotion (Christian) which is really not the proper term for Catholic Devotions (which in the plural has a different meaning than in the singular). Can someone explain this? --Vita Dulcedo et Spes Nostra 15:45, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

I believe I explained my concern above. This is a POV fork of the more general idea of Christian Devotion. Forking content is usually to be avoided unless there is not enough room in a single article to cover all POVs. I pointed out that the Christian Devotion article was fairly small, so I suggested not only improving the catholic seciton there, but also beefing up the rest of the article BEFORE forking out content. --Andrew c 20:42, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

(replying to comment at Talk:Roman Catholic Church/Name#Some other examples). My edit had nothing to do with the name of this article, so this discussion does not belong on that page. VDeSN said I don't understand how you can blank the Catholic devotions article. And I don't understand why you think I blanked the article. I merged the content with an existing article to avoid POV forking. Nothing was 'blanked'. I explained my initial move in my two posts above. If you do not understand the reason why I merged the content, please ask for further information after reading my above posts. Next, my merge was half-reverted by Vaq100. It was another editor (and administrator) who then reverted to the redirect version. Like I said above, we should put our efforts into fixing up the Devotion (Christian) article, before creating POV forks. We have not reached the point on that article to necessitate a "spinout". Make sense? --Andrew c 14:07, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

This article has been completely rewritten as requested. It still has a long way to go. Areas that need help are the approval process, the reference to the history of the Sacred Heart approval process, for example. The connection with private revelation also needs to be addressed. I am suggesting this section could elaborate on the revelations of Padre Pio and Our Lady of Fatima, but other editors might prefer other examples.

The connection between private revelation on Catholic devotions actually works both ways. As meditations such as the rosary are often occassions of new private revelations--this point is entirely absent in the article and needs to be explained well.

Finally, I would ask that Andrew c and others not just simply move or merge this article as it is a substantial work in progress and its relation to Devotion (Chrisitan) simply a coincidence of words. Please use due process for any radical changes as per Wikipedia guidelines. Thanks, Vaquero100 23:58, 13 July 2006 (UTC)

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was Don't move. —Wknight94 (talk) 03:41, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Requested move

Catholic devotions → Roman Catholic devotions — Quite apart from being a POV fork, this is one of several articles that appears to pertain specifically to the Roman Catholic Church and not to Catholic Churches in general — Fishhead64 19:09, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

Survey

Add *Support or *Oppose followed by an optional one-sentence explanation, then sign your opinion with ~~~~

• Strongly Oppose This is part of a hostile campaign by Anglicans and some others to erradicate the name of the Catholic Church on WP. This is a clear violation of WP naming conventions and policies. For a complete discussion of this issue based only on WP conventions and policies please see this article: CC vs. RCC --Vaquero100 19:24, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

• Strongly Oppose For the same reasons given by Vaquero above. If practices from the Eastern Catholic Churches are lacking, then add them, but don't change the meaning of the word "Catholic." The Catholic-bashing by Anglicans has to stop (it is deplorable that JzG refers to Catholics as "Papists"!), and admins who are clueless about a given topic should stick to monitoring breaches of policy, not get themselves involved in content disputes. 64.12.116.66 02:56, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

• Oppose I have no problem with the notion of "little-c catholicism", especially regarding traditionalist Anglicans. But even they don't call their church the Catholic Church: they call it the Anglican Church. Likewise the Church of Sweden used to consider itself "catholic", but that wasn't its name. Only the Catholic Church has no other name for itself than "Catholic". Other groups with Catholic in their name use qualifiers: Old Catholic, Polish National Catholic, etc. --Marcusscotus1 14:19, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment See Catholic and Catholicism. The title of the article does not reference a particular denomination. Fishhead64 16:22, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment See Catholic Church. It redirects to one church only, the church in communion with Rome. Vaquero100 17:21, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

• Support Agree with nom, article appears to specific to one Catholic Church. If shown otherwise, I will consider changing my vote. And Vaquero100, must I remind you (again) of WP:NPA, WP:AGF, and WP:CIV? —Mira 00:50, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

• Oppose -SynKobiety 18:50, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Discussion

Fishhead, what parts of the article _don't_ pertain to other Catholic churches?--SarekOfVulcan 01:55, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Add any additional comments

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Heavily Biased

This article really should be renamed 'Roman Catholic devotions' or 'Latin Catholic devotions'. It is soley about what Romans do, and there isn't much point in making a discrete Eastern Catholic section as our material is generally put in the Orthodox pages (which then note both Orthodox and Eastern Catholic practice). InfernoXV 08:07, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

You are welcome to start another move proposal, but please see the discussion above. On wikipedia, it has been established that both "Roman Catholic Church" and "Catholic Church" can be used to refer to the same body. There are people on both sides who hate this. Some people feel that the word "Roman" is a slur, or is inaccurate because it doesn't always refer to the 22 eastern particular churches in communion with the pope. Other people think that "Catholic Church" without "Roman" is vague, and can refer to more than one denomination. However, there has never been a consensus to support simply one or the other naming convention. So both are allowed. I personally believe improving actual article content is better than going through the ol' RCC vs CC debate again, but you can always test the waters and propose a move.-Andrew c 13:22, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm not going to stir things up, but how about this for a suggestion? I propose stating at the beginning that this article is primarily about devotions of the Latin Catholic Church (or Latin-Rite Catholic Church even), and that a précis of Eastern Catholic devotion be added with a link to fuller treatment in articles on Orthodox devotions? InfernoXV 15:42, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

I like that idea for sure.-Andrew c 15:57, 17 April 2007 (UTC)