Talk:Brandenburg Gate

Pop culture

Ive added a 'pop culture' section, for the Amazing Race' entry. I didn't want ti delete it, but I think its a little insulting to include an American tv show in a history section. TVs not that important, and only fans would care. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.252.78.186 (talk) 01:26, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

FYI: The words 'pop', 'culture', 'Amazing', 'Race', do not appear in the article. Hence, I would conclude that between Nov.2007 and now the 'Pop culture' section was deleted. It might be interesting to some, but apparently not to WP editing consensus. I have no current comment. — Charles Edwin Shipp (talk) 09:50, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

Idea for easy cleanup.

The German language version of this article is much better formatted, and more extensive. Why don't we use an online translator to translat the german version, and then clean up the translation by hand. It would be a whole lot easier then re-writing the whole thing. I don't want to proced untill sombody else agrees with me, though, I don't want to screw anytihng up. (And I just don't have time to do it now anyway.)

--Lophoole 02:39, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Agreed:Translating would be far easier.--72.74.112.203 (talk) 21:41, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

FYI, currently I like our English version better. The German version, [1] does not seem to have current events and instead shows stamps and coins at the bottom of their article. Hence I conclude the 'easy cleanup' mentioned happily occurred in 2007/2009 and is no longer applicable. — Charles Edwin Shipp (talk) 10:12, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

Image Removed

The Gate ist not a triumphal arch, it was part of the former toll wall, and is not free standing. (toll houses)— Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.73.44.97 (talk) 19:53, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Kennedy Speech

President Kennedy did not held his famous speech "Isch bihn ean ..." at the Brandenburg Gate. It was at the Town Holl of Schöneberg (at this time the seat of the Mayor of (West)Berlin.) However, he visited & looked at the Brandenburg Gate from a platform. See: http://images.google.de/imgres?imgurl=http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/6/60/Berlin_Plaque_Kennedy.jpg/180px-Berlin_Plaque_Kennedy.jpg&imgrefurl=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ich_bin_ein_Berliner&h=240&w=180&sz=8&hl=de&start=9&tbnid=X6_BS544V4VUWM:&tbnh=110&tbnw=83&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dkennedy%2Bberlin%2Bspeech%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Dde%26lr%3Dlang_de%26sa%3DX

Gateway to Berlin?

I'm a bit confused. The Gate was originally part of the way into Berlin? Yet it was also right next to the Berlin Wall, which separated one half of Berlin from the other? How can that be? 207.245.124.66 15:50, 22 December 2005 (UTC)

Maybe because the city was smaller, many modern cities have "gates" near the city center now.

yes, that's fully right. the old center of the town was on the "Museumsinsel" (see also: Cölln) --BLueFiSH ?! 19:11, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

When you have the 1945-1990 "East" of Berlin in your back you look away from the old town centre consisting of the ( now to be rebuilt) palace of the Hohernzollern rulers, the university, the main theatres, the 1906 protestant cathedral, the catholic cathedral, and many, many historic places and buildings more. When you have gone through the gate you will pass a huge park called the "Tiergarten" which actually was a wooded hunting park in the 17th century. Walking further west you will come to Charlottenburg, built as a palace for Queen Charlotte as her private country home. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.246.156.95 (talk) 05:57, 3 June 2014 (UTC)

Image Removed

The Brandenburg Gate

I have removed this image from the article because I feel it is duplicated by the final image listed on the page, which is a much better shot. If you disagree, feel free to reinsert it. Feenix^{(talk • email)} 01:02, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

I gave this image on first position long time ago, because somebody was complaining about historical images to be first(of course at that time it was the one with nazi symbols). I think there should be one modern color view as first, so reader can on first view see what is article about. (I am not sure everybody can recognize what is on the b&w 1871 image.) --Li-sung 11:09, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

My problem with the images in this article is there are too many making the page quite lengthy. Like most topics, there are many images that could be included from the web and user's own collections. However they cannot all possibly be incorporated and we should therefore choose the best. I propose we leave this for a week and then take action depending on what the majority of replies, if any, say within this talk page. Feenix^{(talk • email)} 13:34, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

• 
  1
• 2
  2
• 
  3

In this comparation I see as the best picture 3, that shows whole gate in full daily light. --Li-sung 13:49, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

Yup, I see your point there. Can I suggest we add {{commons|Category:Brandenburg Gate}} since this will link to all Wikimedia Commons content related to this article and remove the need to include every image. This will of course mean updating the tags on applicable content on Wikimedia Commons. Feenix^{(talk • email)} 10:53, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

I have swapped the image I previously removed with the number 2 above. Feenix^{(talk • email)} 18:04, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

I am inclined to think this is a better photo than the one curently at the head of the article, since it gives a better idea of both the scale and the details of the Gate. I also think the angled view is aesthetically better. But I leave this judgment to other editors. Adam 08:59, 2 September 2006 (UTC) I agree --Lophoole 02:41, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

Leaving the free world

It says in the article:

However, in 1961, the gate was closed when the Berlin Wall was built. Americans placed large warning signs at their side of the gate, reading in English, Russian, French and German: "End of the Free World. You are leaving the American Zone."

The second sentence is obviously wrong for the following reasons, and I'm deleting it.

• First error: the Brandenburg Gate was on the boundary between the British and Soviet zones. The American zone in that area only went as far north as Potsdamer Platz. So the Americans would not have placed a sign and if there was one it would not refer to the American zone.

• Second error: "You are leaving the (name) zone" signs only make sense at points where it is possible to leave the zone. Once the Wall was established, the Brandenburg Gate was not a crossing point — as the article mentions, it was closed. Of course, it was a crossing point before the Wall was built.

• Possible third error: The famous sign at Checkpoint Charlie did not use the term "Free World", only the "American sector". See the replica here. I assume all signs at zone boundaries would have used a uniform wording, but I don't know. I also don't know whether the British erected such signs at the boundaries of their zones and, if so, whether they were uniform with the American ones.

The reason I post this here at all is because it seems just possible to me that a sign might have been erected after the Wall went up as a political statement rather than a practical notice, and if so, that it might have been worded differently. So maybe the sentence is a distortion of that, and should be corrected rather than deleted. However, I would have thought that if such a sign existed, I would have seen pictures of it. So I'm guessing that the contributor was simply confused, and was misremembering the Checkpoint Charlie sign. (I never went to Berlin myself until after the Wall came down.)

As to the location of the zones and Wall crossing points, they are shown here; and the Potsdamer Platz article confirms that it is the place where the American zone met the other two. 207.176.159.90 01:44, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

• • Good reasoning but a lot of original research involved to be honest. Firstly the Americans had signs as far north along the wall as Kemper Pl, secondly the Brits and the US made a point of sign posting along the wall, approximately 30 feet before it, and not just at crossings. The map you suggest as reference is interesting but not as detailed as maps available at the time. PhilipPage (talk) 02:40, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Goddess of...?

The article says that the quadriga currently contains the Goddess of Peace. It also mentions that in 1814, the quadriga depicted the Goddess of Victory. Was there a transition from one to the other that is not mentioned, or is the decription inconsistent? I have added a cleanup-confusing template. -postglock 03:23, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

-- Yes there was a transition. If i recall correctly they made it into a victory goddess after they had gotten it back from Paris(1814) and also added some preussian symbols

Is the greek victory goddess named " Nike " http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nike_%28mythology%29, it was related in the article that the statue was of greek goddess?

@Postglock I thought it was supposed to be Irene the goddess of peace, at least at one stage of its history. 84.71.60.179 (talk) 13:15, 7 May 2022 (UTC)

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Removed piece about "dramatic incident" between two competitors. This doesn't really add anything to the article and just make sit seem amateurish. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.163.116.12 (talk) 03:20, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Self-conflicting dimensions removed from article

This sentence was removed: "The gate is 26.00 metres (65 ft) high, 65.50 metres (213 ft) wide, and 1 meter (56 ft) thick." because the dimensions cannot be converted properly between metric and English units, and because I can't find any other references online to the actual dimensions.

Build date

Other online resources say the gate was built by Carl G. Langhans in 1788-91.

Monument for what?

I'm confused. In the English wiki it states that the building was erected as a monument for peace. In the German wiki it states: "das dem Andenken an den Krieg des unmittelbar zuvor verstorbenen Friedrich II. diente, von dessen Verdiensten auch etwas Glanz auf den Neffen und Nachfolger fallen sollte." In short it was a remembrance to the successful wars of Frederick II (In the Dutch it states it was a remembrance to an invasion of the Dutch Republic in the 1780's)

Does anybody know the right reason? (I tend to go for the German version.) —Preceding unsigned comment added by H.Flashman(VC) (talk • contribs) 19:21, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Politics

I don't think current politics should be interjected into every stinking place, person or thing a presidential hopeful mentions or visits. A passing reference that is to be removed a few months down the road is the only thing that could happen in these scenarios. Reagan's speech is well known and brought up frequently as the "tear down this wall" eventually became a well known phrase. He did return after reunification to make another speech and this isn't mentioned but Clinton's speech is. Obama, on the other hand, didn't even speak at this wall. It was a modern story that deserves no place here unless one would like to bring up every single reference to the gate. Better start adding some lines in this case.... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.229.171.44 (talk) 17:10, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

I agree and put a heading in for the political info. Editors can then decide what to include/exclude there without affecting the rest of the article.--MartinezMD (talk) 04:05, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

I'm just TALKING here -- Current politics are very interesting coming into next week and the 20-year anniversary of the Berlin Wall coming down. Recently, President Barack H. Obama was disinvited from speaking with speakers at Brandenburg Gate because he was not a world leader with experience. Next, President Obama turns down the invitation from Angela Merkel, Chancellor of Germany, to come over next week because he is too busy. And this week, Chancellor Merkel is in DC and talked to Obama about Iran, Global Warming and other common interests. (She also spoke to a historic joint-session of Congress.) It will be interesting to see if President Obama changes his mind and represents America at the Brandenburg Gate next week. We'll see. Charles Edwin Shipp (talk) 15:21, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

The talking on this page is to be about the ARTICLE. If it's not about the article, it doesn't go here.--MartinezMD (talk) 21:48, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

As a beginner, I am only putting comments in 'Talk' sections so editors can then decide what to include/exclude in the Article. If you were to 'google' the terms "celebrate 20 years berlin wall" you will find numerous articles about the celebration coming on November 9th (Monday) to be at the Brandenburg Gate! I had searched around for where to put my humble observation and comment, and found this Talk-paragraph to be the only one to my liking. Thanks to Dr. Martinez (whom I enjoy reading) for the comment about Talk being for improving Articles. Hope my humble comment/thought will help (soon.) Here is the first reference I clicked on: http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601088&sid=aTPRv6wyd3eg and one sentence (with links): "The 5 million euro ($7.4 million) party opens at 7 p.m. on Nov. 9, with Barenboim conducting the Staatskapelle Berlin at the Brandenburg Gate." Charles Edwin Shipp (talk) 12:58, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

I consider the TALK as an extension of the ARTICLE for people very interested in every detail. Charles Edwin Shipp (talk) 03:29, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

When POLITICS plays a major part in an event at the Brandenburg Gate, what is Wikipedia to do? How does an article maintain neutral point of view? Does it report both the current administration view and then also the opposite view, or does it just report that an event happened? There is a paragraph just below here suggesting EVENTS at the Brandenburg Gate could go into the ARTICLE. Here is a start: 'White House Press Secretary Robert Gibbs said Tuesday that a "very senior delegation" of U.S. officials would attend led by Secretary of State Hillary Clinton.' That is edited from http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/11/08/obama-draws-criticism-sitting-berlin-wall-anniversary/ Hope this helps. Charles Edwin Shipp (talk) 03:29, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

Plus, President Barack H. Obama appeared on the big screen before the Brandenburg Gate audience and broadcast to the world. 71.102.92.13 (talk) 05:43, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

Political History at the Gate is the last section of the Brandenburg Gate article and contains entires for 1963, 1986, 1989, and 1994. As noted in Wikipedia elsewhere, the beginning of the end of the Cold War was the tearing down of the Berlin Wall and the Brandenburg Gate is the focal point of the Berlin Wall. It is notable that Brandenburg Gate is the FORUM for the celebration tomorrow. Perhaps another entry (2009) is in order for the 20-year celebration. Charles Edwin Shipp (talk) 03:49, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

Successfully put a sentence in for celebration at the Brandenburg Gate. Charles Edwin Shipp (talk) 15:45, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

Added an external link, best I could find: Pictures at Brandenburg Gate on November 9, 2009 Charles Edwin Shipp (talk) 15:52, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

I'm adding a sentence at the 25-yr anniversary of Reagan's "Tear down this wall" speech. Charles Edwin Shipp (talk) 03:55, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

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events

I think it might be interesting to write another part about the events that take place at the Brandenburg Gate nowadays. Ever since the wall came down, Berlin tried to reunite the city by building many buildings like government and stuff like that directly on the former border. Part of that is also, that there are many big events that take place at the "Straße des 17. Juni" up to the gate.Those events are very big and famous. There would be stuff like the former "love parade"(giant techno music parade lasting several days and having visitors from all around the globe), "Sylvester"(new year's eve, the biggesNYE celebration on earth) or the "Fanmeile"(public viewing during the World- and Eurocup and even during the DFB Pokal Finale). Those events usually hold up to one million!! people and made the brandenburg gate also famous for its parties/events. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.185.123.204 (talk) 01:33, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

the branderburg gate is a port in germain of europe. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.22.182.211 (talk) 18:20, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

I think this is a good suggestion, (to add an Events section.) I've added a sentence that follows the pattern (in the Article) under Political History at the Gate as follow:

On November 9, 2009, Chancellor of Germany, Angela Merkel, walked through Brandenburg Gate with Russia’s Mikhail Gorbachev and Poland's Lech Walesa as part of the 20-year celebration of tearing down the Berlin Wall.

There is a footnote-reference http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1226305/Berlin-Wall-Twenty-years-Germany-prepares-remember-day-wall-came-down.html I would like to add, and so will study how to do that at-my-earliest-convinence. Charles Edwin Shipp (talk) 06:16, 15 November 2009 (UTC) (Continuing) So today, I tried to look at how the reference in this section was done: link-ref (2) was done (automated) and need to study it further. And btw the link-ref (2) no longer works, FYI. Charles Edwin Shipp (talk) 01:29, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

Added an external link, best I could find: Pictures at Brandenburg Gate on November 9, 2009 Charles Edwin Shipp (talk) 15:48, 23 November 2009 (UTC)

Another event (today) is the 50-yr remembrance of the fall of the Berlin Wall. I'll add a sentence. Charles Edwin Shipp (talk) 18:10, 13 August 2011 (UTC)

FYI, currently there is no 'Events' section and this information is in the third of only three sections: 1 Design and history; 2 Berlin Wall and its fall; 3 Political history at the gate. — Charles Edwin Shipp (talk) 09:57, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

Desired: animated map

One thing that I think could really improve this article is an animated map showing the gate's original function as a gateway to the city (i.e., which side was "outside" and which side was "inside"? & was there an ancient Berlin Wall, and if so, what were its metes?), the gate as a point of division between Cold War East and West Berlin, and the gate as it stands now in reunified Berlin. Robert K S (talk) 20:15, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

Quadriga turned by the GDR

The political history section does not talk about how (around 1970?) the East turned the crowning sculpture so that the horses' rears faced West, and how this change has been reversed.

Anyone have a good reference for this? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.136.83.19 (talk) 07:35, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

If true, you could simply say, 'The horses faced West, then East, and now West again.' Charles Edwin Shipp (talk) 22:46, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

If it was done as a deliberate insult, it'd be important to mention it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.136.83.19 (talk) 00:05, 15 November 2009 (UTC)

Sourcing (primary and secondary) is paramount and a pillar of Wikipedia! Charles Edwin Shipp (talk) 03:26, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

All nonsense! The horses have always faced into the city. Any reversal theories belong in the realm of urban legends or tall stories to tell visiting tourists (e.g. if Berlin's Hertha BSC soccer team has an away game, the horses face out). Alandeus (talk) 10:16, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

Thanks! That should put an end to this thread. btw, do you have a source on that?  :-)  ;-) Charles Edwin Shipp (talk) 15:27, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

Here is a source, but don't take it seriously. http://www.toonpool.com/cartoons/Fu%C3%9Fballfans%20vorm%20Brandenb.%20Tor_5690 ;-} Alandeus (talk) 15:44, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

You can also compare old and new photographs in this article. The Quadriga always faced east. -- megA (talk) 15:05, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

the gate in 1945

a picture of the ruined gate after the battle for berlin would be interesting! 69.171.162.117 (talk) 10:28, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

Removal of Iron Cross and eagle from the Quadriga by East Berlin

During the night of 2/3 August 1958, the East Berlin magistrate had the Iron Cross and the (Prussian) eagle removed from the Quadriga wreath (as "symbols of Prussian-German militarism"), as you, for example, can see on gallery photographs taken between 1961 and 1989. It stayed like this during the GDR era until 1990, when they were reinstalled. Should this be mentioned? -- megA (talk) 15:14, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

Tor, not Thor

I'm correcting the names of the gates of Berlin to the correct german for "Gate", which is "Tor", not "Thor". 201.70.15.130 (talk) 13:59, 29 April 2011 (UTC)

2013 Obama Speech

An historic one. Where are the ideas, drafts?Wikipietime (talk) 12:41, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

I am anxious of the McCain reaction considering; "But in 2008, German Chancellor Angela Merkel refused to let Mr. Obama, then a candidate for president, speak at the historic site, saying it was an honor reserved only for sitting presidents. Mr. Obama instead made a major campaign speech not far from the gate, an event that drew a crowd of more than 200,000.

The speech was mocked by the campaign of Sen. John McCain, the Republican presidential nominee, which aired an ad called “Celebrity” and compared Mr. Obama to Paris Hilton."Wikipietime (talk) 12:46, 19 June 2013 (UTC)

References

Dimensions?

The article doesn't state the dimensions. I visited the article to check the height of the monument. This is basic information, that one would expect to find. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.126.119.98 (talk) 23:48, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

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Infobox image

Previous image

Your image

@WhiteDove: Since we're both at WP:3RR - let's work this out. I understand you wish to use the image you uploaded - however, the previous image is clearly the better choice, because:

• It gives a full, daytime view of the Brandenburg Gate, which is the "natural" and "appropriate" representation of the structure. Your claim that the columns and the quadriga can be shown in greater detail cannot stand in this case. When a reader thinks of the Brandenburg Gate, they will expect to see the whole structure, rather than its architectural details.
• It is of significantly higher quality, which would again defeat your argument over its details. The angle from which your image is taken actually obscures the quadriga - and the quality of the image (lighting and composition) does not really do justice to the columns either.

Mean as custard reverted your edit twice last month - so I'm sure I'm not alone in my assessment. That you went for 3RR twice in a short period seems to suggest that you really, really want to use your image, despite the objections of two other editors. Morningstar1814 (talk) 20:28, 5 August 2017 (UTC)

@WhiteDove: Please respond to my request for discussion. Continuing to revert without given a proper reason, resorting to incivility and ownership behavior is not helpful. Morningstar1814 (talk) 19:38, 6 August 2017 (UTC)

the previous image is better, a complete view of everything is better than a small part of the monument.LuigiPortaro29 (talk) 12:52, 7 September 2017 (UTC)

Agreed. Nighttime images are pretty, but hopeless at illustrating buildings. I'm putting the "previous image" back - the current one seems never to have bween discussed. Johnbod (talk) 16:10, 2 November 2023 (UTC)

File:Brandenburg gate and colonnades.jpg

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.158.41.200 (talk) 22:09, 23 May 2020 (UTC)

Berlin’s Brandenburg gate and colonnades were lit up at night in honor of Adolf Hitler’s 50th birthday, April 20, 1939.

Amazing 1930's era photo of the gate available here: https://www.life.com/history/adolf-hitler-at-50-color-photos-from-a-despots-birthday-april-1939/ see the last photo on this page. This might be a good photo to add to the wiki article... photographer: Hugo Jaeger, Color photos of Hitler's 50th birthday as published by LIFE magazine.. 174.158.41.200 (talk) 22:00, 23 May 2020 (UTC)

• Positive Nazi era history is typically quashed on Wikipedia, oh well. However, this photo does display a Hitler/Nazi era that was still pre-war, pre-catastrophic. Seems that this photo is from a unique time-frame long ago. I'd vote to add. It's quite historic...174.224.137.109 (talk) 22:56, 23 May 2020 (UTC)

The photo doesn't belong to WP. Your first hurdle would be getting licensing for it. MartinezMD (talk) 16:25, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

mid-1945 covering of the Gate's top

I just noticed that in both 1945 photos (12 July, June) a large part of the Gate's top is covered by a red drape or board.
Does anyone know (or could help me find out) if this was to cover some Nazi inscription or just a communist symbol? --ΟΥΤΙΣ (talk) 23:12, 30 July 2021 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion

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You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 21:25, 13 February 2023 (UTC)