Talk:Black Hawk War/Archive 1

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Old discussion[edit]

If you compare to the far-more-detailed account at http://lincoln.lib.niu.edu/blackhawk/ it seems like the Wikipedia version has a large number of grossly misleading omissions. (For example, Gen. Scott's troops never participated in the war because they caught a cholera epidemic. As another example, before I rewrote the first couple of paragraphs, they made it seem like there had never been any problems until Black Hawk came home in 1830 and found his land occupied...in reality, there had been treaty disputes stretching back for nearly 30 years, and whites already occupied more of 1830 Illinois than the Native Americans.) Someone really needs to go through and check everything, or rewrite it from scratch, preferably with a third source to corroborate against. (Although the abovementioned URL has a lot of primary source material.) The abovementioned URL also has no mention that I can find of Keokuk's alleged 1830 land sale, and it's not clear how that fits into the earlier treaty disputes, so that definitely needs to be checked against a third source. Steven G. Johnson

The 1830 land sale in question is here, negotiated by William Clark. --Kevin Myers 08:35, August 5, 2005 (UTC)
It is undenyable that, from what can be seen at the link provided by Kevin Myers, that the 1830 treaty did exist. Yet, I must concur with Steve's concern above that I myself have not been able to find any mention to it at none of the sources I've consulted either. For once, the exhaustive research by James Lewis which can be read at the link provided by Steve does mention the Removal Bill of 1830, which may well have served as base for this treaty, but it specifically says: "... But neither the (President Andrew) Jackson administration in Washington nor its agents in the field believed that a new treaty with the Sauks and Foxes was needed. The old treaties of 1804, 1816, and 1825 had already committed the two tribes to remove west of the Mississippi. In this climate of removal, John Reynolds, the new governor of Illinois, felt confident that the administration would support him when he renewed the state's requests that the Sauk and Fox be forced to live up to the old treaties."
This contradiction is repeated when considering the accounts made by different sources of the events. Lewis is clear to state that Black Hawk was forced to leave Saukenuk into west of the Mississipi in 1831 (his last departure before the crossing of April 5 1832) by Reynolds and Gaines, while this research by author Lee Sultzman mentions as cause a military tension between the Sauk and the Dakota that year, after which he was compelled not to recross east by Atkins and Keokuk (no mention to Gaines).
With so many contradictions at hand, it is unclear how to make a reliable and detailed account of all the events. Steve is right regarding the lack of detail of the current version, but without more (and verifiable) sources, the task is challenging indeed. Phaedriel 14:26, 10 December 2005 (UTC)[reply]


Black Hawk War[edit]

This article seems to imply that the Bad Axe River is in Northern Illinois. (Was it at the time of the Blackhawk War?) It is located in present day Wisconsin on the East bank of the Mississippi River, between DeSoto, WI and Genoa, WI (near Victory). See Wisconsin State Highway Map (Blackhawk Recreational Area, US Army Corps of Engineers). Bernard H. Lincks, Jr., junie@badgerinternet.com, Jul 27, 2005.

Utah Black Hawk War[edit]

Perhaps this topic could somehow be disambiguated from the "Black Hawk War" fought in Utah in the years 1865-72. See:

http://historytogo.utah.gov/utah_chapters/american_indians/blackhawkwar.html

Ziusudra 16:58, 15 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

  • Done.

Ziusudra 01:53, 22 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

If there were 500 natives, then how could they have suffered 450-600 casualties? Makes no sense past 500!

Battle of Stillman's run[edit]

Can someone please put the link for the Battle of Stillman's run in the Battlebox.

Done. The page is Template:Campaignbox Black Hawk War, in case you need to make more adjustments. --Kevin Myers | (complaint dept.) 14:26, 3 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The article seems to give the impression that 300 armed militiamen made an unprovked attack on 40 Indians, and were routed with 11 of ther own men dead. This seems to me to be extremely unlikley. What are the sources for this assertion?

Many, many. [1] and [2] to start you out on. Since this battle was the first armed confrontation of the War, don't you think there should be a small blurb about it with a link to the main article?--Kranar drogin 06:59, 28 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I have also started a stub on Isaiah Stillman. More can be gleaned from those two links I have posted, but it is a start.--Kranar drogin 07:02, 28 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I know this was six months ago but the militia was so ill-prepared (all volunteers, most with no combat experience) and ill-disciplined, that when the small band of Native Americans charged they were duped into believing that there were far more than there really were, they fled all the way back to Dixon's Ferry I believe. It wasn't until skirmishes at Waddams Grove and Bloody Lake that the morale and confidence was restored in not only the militia but in the public's faith in the militia. Pretty interesting bit in the history of the settlement/conquering of the Midwest. IvoShandor 14:34, 1 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

WP Military History Assessment[edit]

I've assessed this as "Start" class, really it's not too far from "B" class - it would be there already apart from the concerns that have been voiced here.

Map[edit]

I think that a fair use image of a map like this [3] needs to be found to add to the document. That site also has some images that might want to be used. It will bring more to the article.--Kranar drogin 15:00, 28 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

We could draw our own, or get someone who knows Illustrator or something like it to do it for us. Fair use isn't necessary. IvoShandor 02:12, 5 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I know someone who will make a map. 02:12, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Status report[edit]

I opposed this article for featured status in 2009 because of sourcing problems, and came back to it in 2010 in the wake of a plagiarism scandal involving the (now vanished) user who nominated it. While removing a tiny bit of possible plagiarism from the article, I became interested in doing more here, and largely rewrote the article using citations from the handful of recent books written by academic historians. Many errors and omissions were discovered and fixed in this process. I think this article is looking pretty good now, and isn't too far away from being of featured quality.

In the course of my reading, I discovered problems with some related articles. These problems mostly stem from the work of 19th century amateur historian Nehemiah Matson, who included stories in his books that modern historians have evidently rejected as legends or tall tales. Or, as this article says: "Because of his indiscriminate mixing of fact and legend, however, scholars generally discount his books as valid sources." Wikipedia editors weren't aware of this problem, and so we had articles about Mike Girty and the execution of Lucy and James Sample, which appear to be unverified local legends that originated with Matson. These suspect articles have been redirected to more general topics, where they're mentioned as potentially unreliable old stories.

This illustrates the importance of adhering to the Wikipedia guideline of using only reliable sources to write articles. Matson is not unique: many writers (past and present) are unfamiliar with techniques used by modern historians to separate the probable from the improbable. Many articles on the Internet written by journalists or local history enthusiasts are often unreliable because they tend to uncritically repeat old stories of dubious origin. Before using that old book or Internet article as a source for a Wikipedia article, try to determine if it is a reliable source. This important step is often overlooked.

There is much more to do in articles related to this one. We currently have many citations from Matson and unreliable Internet histories in other articles. These should be modified or eliminated as necessary. Your help is needed and encouraged. —Kevin Myers 19:42, 9 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Anyone have these sources?[edit]

Anyone have easy access to all four volumes of the Black Hawk War documents compiled by Ellen Whitney? The first two volumes are online at the Internet Archive, but the final two appear not to be. Because there are a handful of good academic works on the Black Hawk War, we don't really need to cite from Whitney's books for the main article, but these books could be very useful for adding details on related articles that the general history books only briefly mention. For example, I've cited Whitney for details about Waukon Decorah, and intend to do more. As always, we must use primary sources with caution, as per WP:Primary.

The books are:

  • Whitney, Ellen M., ed. The Black Hawk War, 1831–1832: Volume I, Illinois Volunteers. Springfield, Illinois: Illinois State Historical Library, 1970. ISBN 0912154225. Published as Volume XXXV of Collections of the Illinois State Historical Library. Available online from the Internet Archive.
  • ———, ed. The Black Hawk War, 1831–1832: Volume II, Letters & Papers, Part I, April 30, 1831 – June 23, 1832. Springfield, Illinois: Illinois State Historical Library, 1973. ISBN 0-912154-22-5. Published as Volume XXXVI of Collections of the Illinois State Historical Library. Available online from the Internet Archive.
  • ———, ed. The Black Hawk War, 1831–1832: Volume II, Letters & Papers, Part II, June 24, 1832 – October 14, 1834. Springfield, Illinois: Illinois State Historical Library, 1975. ISBN 0912154241. Published as Volume XXXVII of Collections of the Illinois State Historical Library.
  • ———, ed. The Black Hawk War, 1831–1832: Volume II, Letters and Papers, Part III, Appendices and Index. Springfield, Illinois: Illinois State Historical Library, 1978. Published as Volume XXXVIII of Collections of the Illinois State Historical Library.

Thanks! —Kevin Myers 18:35, 9 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Black Hawk did not start a War by attacking random settlers[edit]

This entire biased "portrayal" of the Black Hawk War is a sick and closed view of the conflict between Natives and settlers. Black Hawk simply did not start a War by attacking random settlers. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.188.16.224 (talk) 18:32, 10 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Are you talking about this article, or something else? I ask because this article does not claim that Black Hawk started the war by "attacking random settlers". Instead, it explains in detail that Black Hawk was probably trying to avoid bloodshed, and that war began when the Illinois militia opened fire on some of Black Hawk's men. To quote the opening section: "Hostilities began on May 14, 1832, when militiamen opened fire on a delegation from the British Band." Perhaps you're referring to a later sentence that talks about the subsequent "raids against American settlers". That sentence is indeed misleading, since it suggests that Black Hawk led all of the raids. I'll reword it to make it clear that some of the attacks (such as the Indian Creek massacre) were not directly connected to Black Hawk's actions. —Kevin Myers 03:17, 14 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Possible merges[edit]

Years ago, User:IvoShandor created Minor attacks of the Black Hawk War. This is a great idea, since it allows us to cover the various minor raids without overloading the main article with detail. We have to make judgement calls about which topics deserve their own articles, and which should only be covered in the "Minor attacks" article. I've noticed several articles that seem to me to be minor enough that they can be fully covered in the "Minor attacks" article, and therefore don't necessarily need an article of their own. These are:

Of course, because Wikipedia is not paper, we don't need to merge articles just for the sake of consolidation. The question should be whether the encyclopedia is better served by a specific merge or not. It seems to me that the presence of so many articles on minor attacks tends to make it harder for readers to pick out the major actions of the war, i.e. Stillman's Run, Indian Creek, Horseshoe Bend, Wisconsin Heights, and Bad Axe. Also, it is much more laborious to correct errors and add background information across multiple articles. I still haven't corrected some problems in some of the above articles because there are so many articles on the list.

On a related note, we have some articles on people whose only claim to fame is that they were settlers who were killed in the war. When someone is notable for only one event, WP:ONEEVENT suggests that perhaps the person doesn't need an individual article. Both of these articles could be merged into the "Minor attacks" article:

So, my question for you is: which of these nine articles, if any, do you think should be merged into Minor attacks of the Black Hawk War? —Kevin Myers 04:16, 14 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I will have to think about this. I am probably the original contributor and creator on those articles. Where I would lean now: Ament's, Buffalo Grove, Plum River, and Sinsinawa should be merged into Minor Attacks. St. Vrain, Spafford Farm and Blue Mounds should remain standing. Phillips should be merged with the Ament's Cabin material and Payne, I think, was notable enough as an itinerant minister to warrant an article. These are just thoughts off the top of my head. Your work here is incredible. IvoShandor (talk) 07:04, 1 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
But again, with Payne, I stupidly sourced Matson. This just keeps coming back to haunt me. IvoShandor (talk) 07:14, 1 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

External links modified[edit]

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 2 external links on Black Hawk War. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at {{Sourcecheck}}).

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 18 January 2022).

  • If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
  • If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 15:30, 3 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

External links modified[edit]

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 2 external links on Black Hawk War. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 18 January 2022).

  • If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
  • If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 09:28, 21 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

review needed[edit]

I made some changes to this article, as well as to that of the St. Vrain massacre. Although I really should be concentrating on other matters, I'm writing because this is listed among "Warfare Good Articles". I had noticed that the St. Vrain article relied on turn-of-the-century history by politician Perry A. Armstrong, and like this article doesn't mention a much earlier (and long considered fairly reliable) history by former Illinois governor Thomas Ford (politician), who was deeply involved in this war's Rock River valley phase at least. A few months ago, I cleaned up Ford's then-very-problematic article, in part because years ago the history he wrote in his final years in Peoria was considered much better than the 1880s era histories which the St. Vrain article disputes, as does this article's talk page. I found a somewhat recent version of his history in a library Monday while updating this laptop, but the next morning my other laptop died, so I really don't have time to research this war. Initially I thought I could make a quick link here to the Illinois Prophetstown State Park, which has no wikipedia article yet, though it's about 75 years old. I also note that Ford's book indicates that Prophetstown was the second abandoned native village the Illinois militia and U.S. troops encountered (the first being on Vandruff's island; which I don't have time to look up to figure even whether it was in the Mississippi or Rock river). Encountering two abandoned villages, IMHO, also helps the militia's eagerness to fight, leading to the Stillman's Run incident section I've edited.

Ford also says that Black Hawk was actually caught near the Wisconsin Dells by a warrior under One-eyed Decorah (who doesn't have an article, and the book's ethnic description is IMHO cringeworthy). FYI, Tomah, Wisconsin, that this article claims was where Black Hawk surrendered, is on a different river and nowhere near the Wisconsin Dells, which is however at least near the Battle of Wisconsin Heights mentioned in this article and map. The Black Hawk (Sauk leader) article says he surrendered in late August 1832 after hiding on an island in the Mississippi River (which makes sense given this article's explanation of the Battle of Bad Axe and its location on the Mississippi. I've also seen that Dells explanation somewhere else, but Wikipedia's Wisconsin Dells, Wisconsin article only contains a sentence about its history before 1850, and the cultural history of Dells of the Wisconsin River is little better and lacks any maps. Nonetheless, Ford's account of Black Hawk's capture could explain the postwar retaliation faced by U.S. ally, Ho-Chunk chiefWaukon Decorah (One-Armed Decorah's brother) in 1834 per that article.

I included a brief cite as to the location of Dixon's Ferry from a 1905 Wisconsin theses that I found in the same library, because IMHO it explains the military strategy (or the different perspectives of the probably settlement-hungry militia and career military). However, I did not include the book's claim that the Ho-Chunk ceded the area around the Rock River in September 1832. Frankly, for me the interesting bit was learning that eight Illinois counties (including Whiteside County, which includes Prophetstown) were formed from the fertile farmland around the Rock River between 1834 and 1841. That September 1832 treaty is mentioned in neither this article nor the Waukon Decorah article. I know about the [Treaty of Chicago]] in 1833 (which article also needs revision, since the fast majority of the current article concerns the 1821 treaty and fails to mention any signatories to the 1833 treaty). Both September 1832 and early 1833 treaties fit in with Black Hawk's imprisonment and trip east in 1833. I really do think this article should at least mention the resulting treaties, since the Stillman's Run section continues to mention that skirmish as affecting both sides' negotiating positions.Jweaver28 (talk) 18:13, 18 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

86th Infantry Division (United States)[edit]

Did the 86th Infantry Division (United States), who are nicknamed the "Black Hawk Division," fight in the Black Hawk War? 173.88.246.138 (talk) 03:57, 8 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Black_Hawk_War/Archive_1&oldid=1110517884"