Talk:Betsy DeVos/Archives/2016

Severe issues

This article has serious issues in regards to WP:NPOV, WP:NOR, WP:V / WP:RS, WP:TRIVIA, WP:COATRACK, etc., etc. At least 3/4 of the material – all this pointless detail-mongering and name-dropping – in this piece could simply be deleted. Start with all the organization details that do not pertain directly to the subject of the article, then the biographizing about descendants (I deleted the granddaughter's name for privacy reasons), all the non-notable organization namedropping (redlink? throw it out), and so on. Then move on to the WP:PEACOCK wording and other puff-piece junk, like dwelling on how many homes they have, etc. This article on minor notables in the business world is longer than many of our articles on major figures of world history but provides only about 10% as much encyclopedic value, and is mostly sourced to primary sources, and low-quality news sources like local newspaper and their websites and blogs. The article is being treated like it's the personal webpage of Besty DeVos, and it's pretty clear there's WP:COI editing going on here.

All of the above pertains to her husband's article, too.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  00:49, 15 August 2015 (UTC)

I'm inclined to agree with you. The career section is filled with trivia and one-sided peacocking. The board memberships section is completely unreferenced -- a tedious resume-like list. The article also seems to be completely lacking in coverage of the more controversial aspects about DeVos, like the criticism she has received for her efforts at school privatization; for example, All Children Matter was found to have broken campaign finance laws in 2008 and had not paid a $5.2 million fine levied against the organization. Rhode Island Red (talk) 23:48, 15 August 2015 (UTC)

Just for starters. I only encountered this page while WP:GNOMEing, and am pretty appalled at both the promotional trivia-mongering and studious avoidance of any critical material, though lots of it is instantly findable via Google. Ditto for the husband's article too.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  02:00, 16 August 2015 (UTC)

Hello. I reverted one edit, whose aim was to remove the "personal life" section, as it would have been non-standard layout for a Wikipedia article. Her philanthropy on education reform is philanthropic, not politics, as far as I can tell...Moreover, I think her residences should be added back, as that is standard information on Wikipedia, unless there is a clear safety issue (which we would understand).Zigzig20s (talk) 04:57, 16 August 2015 (UTC)

I also dewikified the red links, which brought nothing to this article. I don't think the article needs further trimming. If you do, can you please give us specific examples where you'd like to trim? Thank you.Zigzig20s (talk) 05:00, 16 August 2015 (UTC)

I think the removal you reverted was mine - but my removals were bold, and I have no problem with people putting stuff back in if they think it was removed in error. That's assuming you're not going to re-insert all of the fluffy quotes and resume style lists, of course! Fyddlestix (talk) 05:02, 16 August 2015 (UTC)

I looked at the history and we don't need fluffy language about her residences; just where she resides and the name of her yacht I suppose. Again, we can remove them for safety reasons if they ask (even though Wikipedia is not censored).Zigzig20s (talk) 05:10, 16 August 2015 (UTC)

User:Fyddlestix: Just added them back without fluffy language. Does this sound OK to you?Zigzig20s (talk) 05:20, 16 August 2015 (UTC)

Yeah it looks fine to me Zig, like I said don't worry about reverting me if you think there's something that needs to go back in. That's fine! Fyddlestix (talk) 05:22, 16 August 2015 (UTC)

External links modified

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Semi-protected edit request on 23 November 2016

She is not a successor to John King. She is a nominee, she has not been confirmed by the U.S. Senate. The same for any other head of a federal agency named by Trump. Please correct all such entries, including this one with Nominee 2601:14F:4402:F1D9:E8CD:EFFA:74A9:7BD5 (talk) 21:32, 23 November 2016 (UTC) 2601:14F:4402:F1D9:E8CD:EFFA:74A9:7BD5 (talk) 21:32, 23 November 2016 (UTC)

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. The article says she is a nominee. RudolfRed (talk) 22:03, 23 November 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 25 November 2016

It makes absolutely no sense to include that the subject's MOTHER supported Proposition 8 under the Early Life and Education section. It also makes no sense for the author to go on to define Proposition 8. Obviously the author is making a biased statement about the subject by linking her to a position that may or may not have been held by her mother. It certainly has nothing to do with "Early Life" and "Education" as the Subject was in her 50's when Proposition 8 was an issue. Please remove this statement entirely. Doniboy71 (talk) 17:56, 25 November 2016 (UTC)

"Please remove this statement entirely." This sort of request is what happens when red linked editors start showing up. Who do you think you are writing to? Carptrash (talk) 19:53, 25 November 2016 (UTC)

Not done: The page's protection level has changed since this request was placed. You should now be able to edit the page yourself. If you still seem to be unable to, please reopen the request with further details. Pppery 20:32, 25 November 2016 (UTC)

Criticism

Even though DeVos is controversial, this entry is completely laudatory and ignore her critics, which are permitted under WP:BLP and required under WP:NPOV. Here are two WP:RS that include criticism:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/acts-of-faith/wp/2016/11/23/betsy-devos-trumps-education-pick-is-a-billionaire-philanthropist-with-deep-ties-to-the-reformed-christian-community/
Betsy DeVos: Donald Trump’s education secretary pick shows school vouchers are at the top of his agenda
by Libby Nelson
Washington Post
Nov 23, 2016

Her appointment was met Wednesday with concern from Rabbi Jack Moline, president of Interfaith Alliance, said her support for vouchers raise church-state concerns.

“Americans are always free to send their children to private schools and religious schools, but raiding the public treasury to subsidize private businesses and religious organizations runs against the public trust and the Constitution,” Moline said. “It suggests that he has little regard for our nation’s public schools or the constitutional principle of separation of church and state.”

Julie Ingersoll, professor of religious studies at the University of North Florida. “It’s been a long-standing goal of the Religious Right to replace public education with Christian education,” she said. “The long term strategy of how to change culture is through education.”

http://www.businessinsider.com/betsy-devos-trump-education-secretary-common-core-choice-2016-11
Meet Betsy DeVos, the polarizing charter-school advocate Trump has tapped as education secretary
Michelle Mark
Nov. 25, 2016

The Michigan Democratic Party released a statement calling DeVos a "dangerous and ill-advised pick" and an "anti-public education activist," accusing her of attacking the state's public school system and its teachers for the sake of profits of investors in charter schools.

"Here is someone, in Betsy DeVos, who has made it her life's work to channel her family's massive wealth toward destroying Michigan's public education system," the party said in a statement.

The Michigan chapter of the American Civil Liberties Union called her school-vouchers advocacy "misguided" and urged the Senate to consider her record before confirming her.

"She has ardently supported the unlimited, unregulated growth of charter schools in Michigan, elevating for-profit schools with no consideration of the severe harm done to traditional public schools," wrote the chapter's executive director, Kary Moss.

Teachers unions across the country, too, have been highly critical of DeVos, arguing that despite her years advocating charter schools and vouchers, she lacks firsthand experience working in or with public schools and sends her own children to private schools.

--Nbauman (talk) 06:22, 26 November 2016 (UTC)

Get used to it. Since she was named there have been about half a dozen red linked editors showing up and sanitizing it. Some of them have 4 or 5 edits to their wikipedia careers and already seem to know all the rules. Assume good faith if you must but this is going to happen again and again and again in the near future in this article and others like it. Carptrash (talk) 05:14, 27 November 2016 (UTC)

I see what you mean. https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Betsy_DeVos&type=revision&diff=751572290&oldid=751567784 --Nbauman (talk) 18:53, 27 November 2016 (UTC)

Then I guess the WP:SPAs won't let us use WP:NPOV articles like this either:

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/11/23/us/politics/betsy-devos-trumps-education-pick-has-steered-money-from-public-schools.html
Betsy DeVos, Trump’s Education Pick, Has Steered Money From Public Schools
By KATE ZERNIKE
New York Times
NOV. 23, 2016

Michigan is one of the nation’s biggest school choice laboratories, especially with charter schools. The Detroit, Flint and Grand Rapids school districts have among the nation’s 10 largest shares of students in charters, and the state sends $1 billion in education funding to charters annually. Of those schools, 80 percent are run by for-profit organizations, a far higher share than anywhere else in the nation.

The DeVoses, the most prominent name in state Republican politics, have been the biggest financial and political backers of the effort.

But if Michigan is a center of school choice, it is also among the worst places to argue that choice has made schools better. As the state embraced and then expanded charters over the past two decades, its rank has fallen on national reading and math tests. Most charter schools perform below the state average.

And a federal review in 2015 found “an unreasonably high” percentage of charter schools on the list of the state’s lowest-performing schools. The number of charter schools on that list had doubled since 2010, after the passage of a law a group financed by Ms. DeVos pushed to expand the schools. The group blocked a provision in that law that would have prevented failing schools from expanding or replicating.

The Michigan law pushed by Ms. DeVos to establish charter schools 20 years ago allows an unusually large number of organizations to start such schools, yet established little mechanism for oversight. Even Republican supporters of charter schools say the law has allowed failing charter schools to expand or replicate.

Last spring, the DeVos-backed group was the chief force behind the defeat of legislation that would have established standards for identifying and closing failing schools, both charter and public, in Detroit, where a flood of charter schools in the past decade has created what even charter school supporters call chaos.

• I've removed some of the excessive promotional content that was added before she was announced as the nominee. There was far too many quotes from DeVos praising her various programs. I've also added in some of the sources mentioned here. There's definitely a lot more than can be added to try to balance this out a little more. FuriouslySerene (talk) 20:54, 28 November 2016 (UTC)

I believe

that categories such as Category:Trump administration cabinet members and Category:United States Secretaries of Education should not be added until such time she, and other possible cabinet members are confirmed by Congress and are actually members of the Cabinet. As it is this is just wrong information. I will remove those if someone does not convince me pretty quickly. if there is a discussion about this elsewhere please point it out. Carptrash (talk) 19:00, 30 November 2016 (UTC)

• Since she is neither at this point, I'd agree. Niteshift36 (talk) 19:32, 30 November 2016 (UTC)