Talk:Ben Simmons/Archive 1

Archive 1

To Ben or not to Ben

This is getting silly. "Ben" has been added and re-added to the lead sentence what feels like 10 times by 10 different editors. Count me as one of the editors who removed it in the past, but lately I let it go, figuring it wasn't worth arguing over. But so many different editors have swooped in with differing rationale for including/excluding that it's obviously the most important thing on Wikipedia. So here's mine:

• Exclude "Ben" from the lead sentence. Ben is obviously a diminutive form of Benjamin. Nearly everyone named Benjamin goes by "Ben", and even people who are normally known as "Benjamin" are still occasionally referred to as "Ben" (you wouldn't get any funny looks for "Ben Franklin"). As it is, Benjamin "Ben" Simmons is repetitive and redundant. And really, the absence of it is probably more glaring than it normally would be, only because he doesn't have a middle name. So it just looks like there's something missing. Lizard (talk) 01:43, 1 October 2016 (UTC)

Myself and Bagumba have also contested it in the past, being that it is an obvious nickname. I did caution you Lizard to not bother with it as I too agreed it wasn't worth arguing over and an edit war was ensuing. SantiLak has so far been the only one to really contest it, but it now appears to be at least 4 to 1 in favor of not having "Ben" there. DaHuzyBru (talk) 04:16, 1 October 2016 (UTC)

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Semi-protected edit request on 19 October 2017

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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"Benjamin David Simmons (born 20 July 1996) is an American-Australian professional basketball player for the Philadelphia 76ers of the National Basketball Association (NBA)."

Please change American-Australian to Australian-American because he was born in Australia, grew up in Australia, represents Australia in basketball and identifies as Australian. Ed.cronin (talk) 08:55, 19 October 2017 (UTC)

Not done: See American Australians, as this seems like the exact meaning that you want.—Bagumba (talk) 10:08, 19 October 2017 (UTC)

No, the exact meaning is simply "Australian". Unless you are willing to change Kyrie's page as well, you are a bandwagonning hypocrite.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Handsonsocks (talk • contribs)

For the record, you do understand that blue-green is a shade of green and green-blue is a shade of blue, and calling him American-Australian is giving full recognition of him as an Australian? Do you think French-Canadians are citizens of France? JesseRafe (talk) 13:46, 26 October 2017 (UTC)

Do you think that Ben Simmons considers himself American, when he has actually come out and said he will play internationally for Australia? Why is Kyrie Irving only "American", not "Australian-American" when he was born in Australia and why is Dante Exum, who has BOTH American parents "only" Australian (but was born in Australia and played for Australia and is Australian)?

How about you Americans actually respect these people as individuals and how they choose to define themselves. Ben is Aussie, deal with it. Rather than just treat them as images to be considered American if they are good and internationals if they aren't? <(talk • contribs)

Assume good faith. The vast majority of Wikipedia editors are here to improve the encyclopedia, not push an agenda. Lizard (talk) 13:37, 27 October 2017 (UTC)

I've seen this question posted twice in this talk thread but nobody has actually adressed it with an answer "Why is Kyrie Irving only "American", not "Australian-American" when he was born in Australia and why is Dante Exum, who has BOTH American parents "only" Australian (but was born in Australia and played for Australia and is Australian)?" That is an excellent point. I'm not an American or an Australian (though I live here currently) but other than US bias, I don't see any reason to not be consistent here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 118.211.94.163 (talk) 06:21, 2 November 2017 (UTC)

Please see #Nationality above for the discussion regarding Simmons. You can discuss the other articles at their respective talk pages, or start a general discussion at the NBA project page at WT:NBA.—Bagumba (talk) 08:12, 2 November 2017 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Semi-protected edit request on 4 November 2017

change American Australian to Australian. He was born in Australia and is an Asutralian citizen. Michaelg156 (talk) 11:37, 4 November 2017 (UTC)

Not done: Your concern has already been addressed. Reder to discussion above or via this link Talk:Ben_Simmons#Nationality  — Ammarpad (talk) 12:55, 4 November 2017 (UTC)

Dave Simmons' Australian Nationality

I don't think this source is good at all. It doesn't say anything about his citizenship or the Australian national team, but just a local league team, the Canberra Cannons (i.e., Canberra is not being used as a metonym for the nation), and just says he's eligible to play. It says he's "naturalised" in passing, not that he is a citizen. We need a better, explicit source or a quote. It should change back to just "American" until conclusive otherwise. JesseRafe (talk) 16:16, 14 December 2017 (UTC)

Dictionary says: "(often be/become naturalized) admit (a foreigner) to the citizenship of a country: he was born in a foreign country and had never been naturalized | (as adj. naturalized) : a naturalized U.S. citizen born in Germany."—Bagumba (talk) 16:32, 14 December 2017 (UTC)

I'm quite aware of the meaning of words, and I am pleased to consider such condescending remarks acts of bad faith and incivility. If you bothered to read my comment, I'm saying the source seems poor and it is not unambiguously referring to his citizenship or why that matters in the context it is mentioned in. Heck, the sentence could even be read referring to Sean. If this is the only source purporting a major claim such as nationality, it should be removed. If you like, I can add dictionary definitions of every word I used, too. JesseRafe (talk) 16:41, 14 December 2017 (UTC)

American-born father

There was a lot of concern before that Ben's Australian citizenship was not emphasized enough. Thus, when I made changes to address that last month (see the #Nationality thread above), I also erred on side of calling his father "American-born" instead of plain "American" since he was a dual-citizen by then. JesseRafe reverted "American-born with edit summary "nothing to ever indicate Dave has Australian citizenship or is anything other than just American has ever been listed as a reference, BLP policy suggests removing rather than CN tagging until sourced)." However, it was already sourced in "Early life" after "He later became a naturalised citizen." DaHuzyBru made changes to replicate the same ref at multiple places to make it more obvious.

@JesseRafe: Do you need these extra citations to remain? Per MOS:CITELEAD, the lead generally does not have citations unless it's deemed controversial. If this is to stay, I'd prefer not to have citations mid-sentence (unless it's after a comma), and would suggest placing them at the end of the respective sentences. Thanks.—Bagumba (talk) 16:29, 14 December 2017 (UTC)

I'd like better citations. I don't think this is a good source or a strong sentence indicating his Australian nationality at all. It's in passing, without context, and not even explicitly referring to Dave, rather than Sean. JesseRafe (talk) 16:43, 14 December 2017 (UTC)

90% of the article's content is referring to Dave. Sean is Dave's step-son, so Sean's last name is not "Simmons". Sean also did not play in the NBL. Per the article, Sean was off to Adelaide to play in the Australian under-14 championships. The sentence of "The American-born 205cm forward is eligible to play as a naturalised Australian" is followed by "and hopes to retain his place with the Cannons when Ritter returns." It's clearly referring to Dave Simmons, the NBL player for the Canberra Cannons. Here's another source citing him being naturalised [1]. DaHuzyBru (talk) 17:45, 14 December 2017 (UTC)

Player profile

Should Player Profile section be added? Or should we wait for Ben to establish himself more? I was going to add this section without a discussion but decided to have one because I didn’t want my edit to be reverted a day or so later. Please leave your thoughts below. JRyno1 (talk) 12:43, 3 April 2018 (UTC)

Include I think it should be included because of his unusual position placement and unusual playing style. JRyno1 (talk) 12:44, 3 April 2018 (UTC)

There's certainly enough sources about it as coming into the season there was lots of ambiguity and second-guessing about his ability to play the point, I'd say go for it, but make sure it's well-cited and not overly fawning. JesseRafe (talk) 15:06, 3 April 2018 (UTC)

Yes, cited to reliable sources. I wouldnt rely too much on sites like SBNation, which is mostly fan blogs (though some reputable staff writers can be exceptions).—Bagumba (talk) 15:25, 3 April 2018 (UTC)

JRyno, I wanted to edit what you wrote, but it was too much. This isn't a LibertyBallers fanpost, it's an encyclopedia article. Reverted wholesale per "I'd say go for it, but make sure it's well-cited and not overly fawning." Please make a shorter version again, with only real sources, i.e. philly.com or Deadspin, not BR or SS, and no weasel words. Workshop in your userspace if you need to rather than try to publish it all at once. JesseRafe (talk) 20:43, 3 April 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 4 April 2018

Born: 20 July 1996 (age 21), Melbourne, Australia 120.18.124.125 (talk) 01:18, 4 April 2018 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. JTP ^{(talk • contribs)} 01:25, 4 April 2018 (UTC)

Nationality

How about some discussion here, instead of just reverting back and forth? --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 13:56, 11 October 2017 (UTC)

I just wanted to clarify as to why people think that Ben Simmons is American. Just because one of your parents are technically from the country qualifies you for automatic citizenship, but just because you have a citizenship does not mean you identify as a person from that country. Simmons grew up his whole life in Australia and only moved to America at 17 in his senior year. By this logic of having a dual citizenship why is Kyrie Irving not considered an Australian-American as the exact same logic applies. Stuv3 (talk) 14:09, 11 October 2017 (UTC)

I don't necessarily disagree with you or your logic regarding the comparison to Kyrie Irving's case. It was fine with just Australian since the article was created, only recently has American been added. However, if the consensus is to have both listed – which it appears to be that way – then it needs to stand and others need to stop reverting it back as it's too disruptive. DaHuzyBru (talk) 15:24, 11 October 2017 (UTC)

There's some flaws in the reasoning above: Dave Simmons is not "technically" American, he's 100% American and even if Ben never came to the States he'd still be an American Australian the same way other Australians are Irish Australians or Filipino Australians. Nor is your assumption that 1) Ben does not identify as a citizen or 2) that such an identity is necessary. He holds American citizenship, that's incontrovertible. As DHB said, it was fine with him being listed as just an Australian, but the recent comments about Trump led to more media coverage and therein were multiple sources pointing to his critiques of the POTUS as not a foreigner's but that of an American national, so that was probably the catalyst for why the American part was added to the lede and infobox. JesseRafe (talk) 15:44, 11 October 2017 (UTC)

I generally agree that dual-citizenship should generally not be mentioned in the lead unless it's relevant to a player's notability. Unlike Irving (Australian) or Steve Nash (British), Simmons is playing in the US, and spent a year of high school and then college in the States. I'd lean towards it being relevant enough for the lead. Listing him as American-Australian as opposed to Australian-American given greater emphasis to his being identified more as being an Australian.—Bagumba (talk) 15:48, 11 October 2017 (UTC)

@Underbelly 50: Regarding your recent revert to remove "American" from the lead, you might not have been aware of this existing discussion. Feel free to respond to the above points here. Thanks.—Bagumba (talk) 11:13, 25 October 2017 (UTC)

• Adding my support for the "American-Australian" qualifier. Sources are all over the place so they aren't much help. But his dad is American and his mom is Australian, so it makes sense to me. Lizard (talk) 14:44, 25 October 2017 (UTC)

Funny how Americans only started this topic when Ben started becoming big following his debut. Before that you didn't care that he was "just Australian". Compare how Australians treated Kyrie Irving's page- when he declared himself to be American, Australians respected that edit by an American and his wiki page now just lists American.

In other words, the consensus is NOT that Ben Simmons is a dual national, its only that the USA has more people than Australia and Americans are the only people who think he is American.

Oh, and BTW, Ben has only ever said that he represents Australia. He has never said he would, or has ever considered, representing the USA. Best give up that pipe dream of Simmons in USA sleeves because it will never happen.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Handsonsocks (talk • contribs)

Oh and where is the edit for Dante Exum? Oh, he isn't good enough to be classified as American. Pure bigotry. (BTW, regardless of how his career goes, he will always still be considered Australian by the people who count- other Australians)— Preceding unsigned comment added by Handsonsocks (talk • contribs) 02:20, 26 October 2017 (UTC)

Thanks, your constructive input is appreciated. Lizard (talk) 02:13, 26 October 2017 (UTC)

Why is Ben Simmons still considered an American this is stupid editors making wikipedia discrediting. There is no source where it says Simmons identifies as an American, he was born and raised in Australia, represents Australia internationally what more else do you want. Why is Dante Exum not considered American when BOTH of his parents are American and he plays in the USA same as Simmons, but hey let's just call Simmons American because he is going to be a good player we must take credit for him. Why is Kyrie Irving not considered Australian when the sam logic applies for Ben Simmons being American; he was born in Australia and holds dual-citizenship also but yeah of course he's good he must only be considered an American, why is this argument invalid. Why are people trying to defame people and ruining wikipedia this needs to be changed. Stuv3 (talk) 12:54, 29 October 2017 (UTC)

@Stuv3: He's a dual citizen – simple as that. There are many sources to support that. Per Bagumba's post above: "dual-citizenship should generally not be mentioned in the lead unless it's relevant to a player's notability. Unlike Irving (Australian) or Steve Nash (British), Simmons is playing in the US, and spent a year of high school and then college in the States. I'd lean towards it being relevant enough for the lead." Dante Exum is not a dual citizen – I just did a quick "dante exum dual citizen" google search and nothing immediate comes up.

You and User:Handsonsocks appear to be questioning other users' integrity in a similar manor. Per Lizard the Wizard's post below – assume good faith. The vast majority of Wikipedia editors are here to improve the encyclopedia, not push an agenda. Wikipedia is all about consensus – the majority believe Australian and American should be cited in the lead. DaHuzyBru (talk) 14:05, 29 October 2017 (UTC)

Exum is likely a dual citizen, as children of American parents automatically are citizens unless he renounced it (or his parents renounced their citizenship). However, I would keep it out of the lead unless his being American was shown to be relevant by being mentioned in sources.—Bagumba (talk) 12:10, 30 October 2017 (UTC)

Simmons himself brought up his dual citizenship when commenting about Trump prior to his election in 2016 and sources mentioned Simmons' dual citizenship to put context to his calling Trump a "dickhead" in 2017.—Bagumba (talk) 15:38, 29 October 2017 (UTC)

To address the concerns that his American citizenship is overstated, I made these changes. Basically I called him an Australian basketball player, but later mention he has dual citizenship w/ US.—Bagumba (talk) 08:21, 11 November 2017 (UTC)

He’s Australian. THATS where he was born! It should read, ‘Ben Simmons is Australian, though he currently enjoys dual citizenship with his home country and the United States.’! He wasn’t born in America, so unless he were to renounce his Australian citizenship for some reason, he will ALWAYS be Australian! You can become a citizen or other countries but where you were born is your nationality! He is a welcomed citizen of the United States but he doesn’t play for the United States National Team. He can’t ever run for president, unless they amend the law. I mean why haggle, he’s AUSTRALIAN and should be proud of that as well as furthering his horizons by becoming a citizen of the country he makes his living playing in. Just take it out because as it reads now, it’s misleading information for those whom may not know everything about Ben Simmons. He has dual citizenship but his NATIONALITY IS AUSTRALIAN!!! Case closed! Jeffrey S. Olivo (talk) 00:02, 27 May 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 4 February 2019

Ben Simmons has an official website at https://www.bensimmons.co/. Elkripy (talk) 06:02, 4 February 2019 (UTC)

@Elkripy: The website link has been added to the article's "External links" section. Cheers. DaHuzyBru (talk) 06:52, 4 February 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 23 December 2019

Change "7 November 2019" to "7 December 2019" Imjordan61 (talk) 04:13, 23 December 2019 (UTC)

 Done—Bagumba (talk) 04:51, 23 December 2019 (UTC)

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