Talk:Ashmore and Cartier Islands/Archive 1

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Archive 1

ww2?

Does anyone know if the Japanese captured them in World war 2, like they did with Christmas Island --Astrokey44 13:24, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

Migration

I removed the reference to mandatory detention as a discouragement for people smuggling because it made it sound as if that was a solution to the practice of taking people to Ashmore. In fact mandatory detention of refugees had been brought in in 1994 by the Keating government. Mat Hardy (Affentitten) 05:43, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Disputed islands?

This page is in the category 'Disputed islands', yet no reference is made to this in the article. Are they disputed? If so, by whom? Iain 23:00, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

To clarify for anyone else looking, it is the Category:Ashmore and Cartier Islands that is in Category:Disputed islands. The article Cartier Island says "...whose authority over the islands is disputed by Indonesia." without a specific reference. The CIA World Factbook page linked from both articles includes
Indonesian groups challenge Australia's claim to Ashmore Reef; Australia has closed the surrounding waters to Indonesian traditional fishing and created a national park in the region while continuing to prospect for hydrocarbons in the vicinity
Note that the world factbook says "Indonesian groups", not "Indonesia". --Scott Davis Talk 23:43, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
I have put the article into Category:Disputed islands, aswell as the cat, to enable a full list of disputed-island main articles to appear in that category. Bards 22:40, 7 February 2007 (UTC)
I removed it before seeing this, but I still don't think it's necessary:
  1. The article does not have any mention of a dispute, especially not one cited to reliable sources
  2. The category should be enough. I'm prepared to reconsider this if the first issue is satisfied.
The quote from the World Factbook above appears to be contradicted by Indonesian fishermen are allowed access to the lagoon and fresh water at Ashmore Reef's West Island earlier on the same page.--Scott Davis Talk 03:23, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
From personal experience - cia world factbook is never and should never be used as a final answer point for issues such as these - surely the work of viv forbes the map librarian at uwa (who has worked on issues re the state boundaries in a number of places would be more circumspect of the issue) I will try find a cite/and or quote from his work...SatuSuro 03:32, 8 February 2007 (UTC)
Does the Indonesian government lay any claim to Cartier Island? Qaka 21:38, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
ETAN makes mention of a dispute (link added), though it was an isolated posting from 2003. Not sure how intently people are making the claim. Mention made here too: [1] --Dylanfly 19:28, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Popular support

Could one of you Aussies change this sentence, please? "This policy was popularly supported by the public." The news we got in North America was that the politics around the asylum seekers were pretty darn intense, with a lot of strong feelings on both sides. When I think of "popularly supported," I think of things widely agreed upon. Maybe the sentence could be adjusted? --Dylanfly 02:39, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

This sentence is incorrect, the issue was extremely divisive. The government won a subsequent election by winning the most seats, but actually lost the majority vote mathew (talk) 00:04, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Distance?

Are these islands closer in distance to Australia or to Indonesia? Inkan1969 00:37, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

"approximately 320 km off Australia's north-west coast and 170 kilometers south of the Island of Roti" from Geoscience Australia [2] - Matthew238 (talk) 09:47, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

what is the land area?

what is the land area of this territory? im doing a study on uninhabited places on the earth and trying to total up as much land surface as possible to try determine a the population density of the earth if all uninhabetd land areas were excluded. can some one please tell me the land area of this uninabited territory? 76.244.154.251 (talk) 11:58, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

Sources on Indonesian claims

User:Joshua's recently added information on the issue of Indonesian claims to Ashmore Reef seems well written, but the only cited source is an [www.thejakartapost.com/news/2005/12/19/tension-builds-over-ashmore-reef-it-indonesia039s-or-australia039s.html|opinion piece] from a proponent of Indonesian ownership of the islands, and almost none of the information is contained in the cited opinion piece (e.g., it doesn't mention any Indonesian groups, their reasoning, Rote Ndao Regency province, East Nusa Tenggara province, or a memorandum of understanding). Also, including an inference like "the Indonesian government does not appear to actively contest Australia's possession" seems to suggest that they may contest it at some level. I have no opinion about what the actual facts are, but this seems like a controversial subtopic, and should be verifiable with reliable sources. According to WP:RS, "editorial commentary, analysis and opinion pieces...are rarely reliable for statements of fact."

I removed the citation to the opinion piece, and added a refimprove tag to the section, rather than removing the material outright. If it is verifiable, factual information, it would be great to include.

Agyle (talk) 18:56, 3 April 2014 (UTC)

Before I made the changes, the article had only something like "Ashmore Reef is called Pulau Pasir by Indonesians, and considered part of Rote Ndao Regency of East Nusa Tenggara province". The source given? Wikimapia. So I did a little search and came across some blogs and the opinion piece. I agree that the opinion piece is not a great source, but that is the only one I can find for now.--Joshua Say "hi" to me!What I've done? 01:25, 4 April 2014 (UTC)
Ah, I understand. I just took a look too, and can't find any reliable sources to support the claim about Rote Ndao Regency. The CIA is the only reliable (or quasi-reliable) source I found that mentions Indonesian groups disputing control, saying "Indonesian groups challenge Australia's claim to Ashmore Reef". I don't have access to most journal articles, but one that's freely available is linked below, which includes some information on the 1974 & 1980 Memoranda of Understanding (MOU), the 1997 maritime boundaries treaty, the 2001 excision, and other issues related to the Ashmore Islands:
  • Forbes, Vivian Louis (2006). Rumley, Dennis; Forbes, Vivian Louis; Griffin, Christopher (eds.). "Australia's Maritime Space: Conflict and Cooperation" (PDF). Australia's Arc of Instability. 82. Springer: 23–48. doi:10.1007/1-4020-3826-7_3.[link changed; link previously here was blacklisted]
Still, it doesn't verify the current information. If no other sources are located about indonesian groups, I'd be inclined to go with the CIA's statement, with an in-article attribution since it's a weak source with a unique claim. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Agyle (talk • contribs) 04:44, 4 April 2014 (UTC)

Land area

The land areas given in this section seem very dubious, and are inconsistent with information in published sources like The World Factbook, which lists the total land area of the islands as 5 square kilometers.

This article lists the land area of Cartier Island as 17,000 square meters, which is 0.017 square kilometers, which is small. (About four acres, or 3 American football fields, for Yanks). All the land areas listed don't add up to anywhere near 5 km2. Either that book is off or this article is off.

Agyle (talk) 07:07, 29 March 2014 (UTC)

If you look at http://asiapacific.anu.edu.au/mapsonline/base-maps/ashmore-reef, you'll see that the figures quoted in the article are consistent with the map. (Heaven knows where the Factbook gets 5 sq km from.) Cheers, Pdfpdf (talk) 17:48, 30 March 2014 (UTC)
BTW, the Factbook has a reputation for being "off" - see comments above.
Another example: I thought I'd see what it had to say about the land areas in the Paracel Islands and Spratly Islands of the South China Sea. Answer: Nothing useful - nothing for Paracels, and less than 5 sq km for Spratlys.
Also, the entry for the Paracel Islands says "China built a military installation on Mischief Reef". There is no Mischief Reef in the Paracels. (China built a military installation on Mischief Reef in the Spratly Islands.)
Cheers, Pdfpdf (talk) 17:48, 30 March 2014 (UTC)
The map looks roughly (within a factor or two) of the most common opinions, ignoring The World Factbook which is higher, Wikipedia and bird surveyers which are lower, and Infoplease.com which is self-contradictory. My guess is that the area of the islands could vary considerably depending on whether the tide is low or high, the phase of the moon affecting tidal range, and sand being moved about by waves over time. A Commonwealth site say islands rise to a maximum of 2.5 meters above sea level, and tidal range in the open ocean ranges from around 0.5-0.9 meters, so it's pretty easy to imagine significant size changes.
Two Australian Government websites (1 2) put the total land area of the three Ashmore Islands at 1.12 km2 (or 112 ha). A Commonwealth website puts the total of the Ashmore Islands at 93 ha, and Cartier Island at 0.4 ha. Both sizes are identically listed in The Commonwealth Yearbook 2006 on page 116, and a Western Advocate article lists 0.4 ha for Cartier Island. Two journal articles cited below put the total land area of Ashmore Islands at 54 hectares (0.54 km2 (one also includes plus Splittgerber Cay, which I think is negligible), and a third journal article puts the area of West Island at 28.1 ha (0.281 km2), though two years earlier the same author core author listed it as 16 ha in a fourth journal article. A bird surveyer in one report estimated the three islands at 10 ha each, and in another article estimated them at 15 ha each; I'm guessing the author just did a quick visual estimate, the area being secondary to his purpose. PTTEP, in a report following up on their Montara oil spill, said Cartier Island was 2 ha, and didn't estimate the land area of the Ashmore Islands. Infoplease.com says the area of all the islands is 5 km2, but then makes the assertion that they're all about 0.8 km wide; even if they meant 0.8 km diameter circles, that's nowhere near 5 km2.
In comparison, the Wikipedia article's measurements for the three islands add up to around 9.3 ha (0.093 km2), and lists Cartier Island as 1.7 ha. Looking at the history of the article, the current Wikipedia claims were made by Ratzer in this 2005 edit, with the edit summary saying "area information by Department of the Northern Territory", but Ratzer didn't cite a specific source; there were two short-lived government agencies that went by that name in the 1970s. Wikipedia's information has been widely repeated, without citation, on other reference sites, but I haven't found where Ratzer may have gotten it. The measurements he replaced were 32 ha, 16 ha, and 13 ha for the Ashmore Islands (total 61 ha, similar to the three journals), and 250 ha for Cartier Island (much larger than other sources and its appearance on maps).
So basically, the sizes are unknown, and opinions vary substantially. Various sources:
  • "Ashmore and Cartier Islands". Geoscience Australia, Australian Government. Retrieved 2014-03-30. The West, Middle and East Islands of Ashmore Reef are within the reef rim. They have a combined area of 1.12 square kilometres, the largest being about one kilometre long.
  • "Marine Protected Areas". Department of the Environment, Australian Government. Archived from the original on 2011-07-09. Ashmore has three small, vegetated islands (West, Middle and East Islands). The combined area of the islands is 112 hectares with the largest island being about one kilometre long.
  • "Ashmore and Cartier Islands". Commonwealth Secretariat, Commonwealth of Nations. Retrieved 2014-03-30. Area: Ashmore Islands: 93 hectares (0.93 sq km); Cartier Islands: 0.4 hectares (0.004 sq km).
  • Lavers, Jennifer L.; Hodgson, Jarrod C.; Clarke, Rohan H. (2013). "Prevalence and composition of marine debris in Brown Booby (Sula leucogaster) nests at Ashmore Reef" (PDF). Marine Pollution Bulletin. 77 (1–2): 320–324. doi:10.1016/j.marpolbul.2013.09.026. ISSN 0025-326X. The reef contains four lightly vegetated islands (East, Middle, and West Islands and Splittgerber Cay; total land area ~54 ha)...
  • Carter, Mike; Clarke, Rohan H; Swann, George (2011). "Island Monarch 'Monarcha cinerascens' on Ashmore Reef: First records for Australian Territory". Australian Field Ornithology. 28 (4). ISSN 1448-0107. West Island is a low-lying coral cay with coarse sandy substrate and occasional beach rock outcrops; its total land area is 28.1 ha (Clarke et al. 2011).
  • Carter, Mike; Clarke, Rohan; Pierce, Frank; Dooley, Sean; Swann, George; Grant, Murray (2010). "Lesser Coucal 'Centropus bengalensis' on Ashmore Reef: First Record for Australia". Australian Field Ornithology. 27 (3). ISSN 1448-0107. Within the reef are three small islands: West, Middle and east Islands (total land area 54 ha). The largest and most heavily vegetated is West Island...
  • Clarke, Rohan H; Carter, Mike; Swann, George (2009). "Asian Brown Flycatchers 'Muscicapa dauurica' on Ashmore Reef: First Records for Australia". Australian Field Ornithology. 26 (4): 123–131. ISSN 1448-0107. West Island, Ashmore Reef (16 ha) is situated 145 km south of Roti Island, Indonesia.
  • Milton, David (1999). "Occasional count No. 2: Ashmore Reef, Northwestern Australia" (Document). Australia Wader Studies Group, Birds Australia. p. 35. It consists of three low coral sand islands each of approximately 10 ha. Only West Island is vegetated with fringing Poisonia and several coconut trees and an extensive grass cover. {{cite document}}: Unknown parameter |issue= ignored (help); Unknown parameter |work= ignored (help)
  • Milton, D. A.; CSIRO Division of Marine Research (July 1999). "Survey and Stock Size Estimates of the Shallow Reef (0-15 M Deep) and Shoal Area (15-50 M Deep) Marine Resources and Habitat Mapping Within the Timor Sea Mou74 Box – Volume 3: Seabirds and Shorebirds of Ashmore Reef" (Document). Department of the Environment, Australian Government. p. 3. It consists of three low coral sand islands of about 15 ha each. Only West Island is vegetated, with fringing Argusia argentea and several coconut trees and an extensive grass cover. {{cite document}}: Unknown parameter |url= ignored (help)
  • Wahlquist, Asa (September 2013). "A Voyage of Discovery" (Document). PTTEP Australasia. the nearest land to montara is cartier island, a two hectare single sand cay devoid of vegetation, 106 kilometres to the west. {{cite document}}: Unknown parameter |edition= ignored (help); Unknown parameter |format= ignored (help); Unknown parameter |url= ignored (help); Unknown parameter |work= ignored (help)
Perhaps a few sizes should be included in the article, with in-article attributed the sources in the article, saying that size estimates differ. ––Agyle (talk) 04:04, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

I still have an old letter from the Department of the Northern Territory giving the area figures that I had put in the article. Send me mail (Ratzer.Wikipedia <at> gmail.com), and I'll send you a scan of the letter. However, in comparison to satellite images (West) (Middle) (East) (Cartier) I doubt those figures and consider them too low. Perhaps someone has Google Earth Pro and can determine the areas from the satellite images. The problem with the satellite images might only be to gauge where the boundary between land area (vegetated or unvegetated) and reef area is, especially in the case of Cartier Islet which appears to be totally void of vegetation now.--Ratzer (talk) 21:51, 11 April 2014 (UTC)

Calculating land areas from satellite imagery sounds like original research, and would also be subject to possibly significant deviations based on the time and date due to tidal or other fluctuations. I looked at Google Maps' satellite view and various maps for informal rough estimates, and they're all over the place, just like the written area descriptions.
Ratzer, regarding the letter, that might be useful as one more estimate to include, in addition to others, though I wouldn't consider the government of the Northern Territory more reliable than the Australian government, Commonwealth of Nations, or other sources, and they seem to be have the smallest estimates of most of the islands. I'm unfamiliar with how such sources are cited...I think there's some process where they can be archived with Wikipedia or something. Agyle (talk) 22:29, 11 April 2014 (UTC)
Is measuring something indeed considered original research in Wikipedia? Also distance measurements, or only area mesurements?--Ratzer (talk) 18:47, 12 April 2014 (UTC)
If you mean generally, it probably depends on the specific case; Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Geography or Wikipedia talk:Identifying reliable sources may provide suggestions on general questions for other situations. Agyle (talk) 18:00, 14 April 2014 (UTC)
I just revised the figures, using some of the sources above. It occurs to me that the CIA World Fact Book may be referring to land area within the territory, not the islands specifically, presumably include the reefs and various cays, some of which that may be above sea level only during low tides. That could explain why their 5 km2 figure is so much higher than the island area estimates. Agyle (talk) 09:34, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

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