Talk:All-time Olympic Games medal table/Archive 3

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Archive 4

Archive 5

Russia & Soviet Union

Now that Germany has been united as one country in the list... It begs the question why the Soviet Union & Russia has not been united. Russia is seen as the Successor state of the Soviet union as much as Germany is to West Germany. -- Phoenix (talk) 21:52, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

I see from where you are coming in this, but it's the wrong analogy. Russia is to the Soviet Union as post-1945 Germany was to the German Reich - i.e., a territorially smaller country succeeding a larger empire after its collapse. I admit ignorance of whether your claim of Russia as successor state to the USSR is accepted in the affected countries (that were part of the USSR but are independent now). As the German Reich collapsed, there were no "new" countries, just a shuffling of borders. And while Germany lost territories both in WWI and WWII, it more or less consistently grew in population - while Russia today represents less than half the population of the USSR. Is the Russian NOC really the accepted successor of the USSR NOC? Then there's the difference between Germany at the Olympics on the one hand, and Russia at the Olympics / Soviet Union at the Olympics on the other. I'd like to hear some elaboration on your case before I'd give that one a nod... -- DevSolar (talk) 14:48, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

Please understand my intentions: By no means do I want to express that Germany is "better", or push an agenda to have Germany ranking higher. But to my understanding there's a significant difference in quality between German Reich / Germany and USSR / Russia (or Yugoslavia / Serbia, for that matter). Not even so much politically - I wouldn't dare to speak judgement on that, as it's too touchy a subject. But in territory, demographics, and NOC consistency. The German NOC of 1898, 1936 and 2008 represented the same nation, "the Germans". I'd daresay there is no NOC today that feels slighted by totalling the German numbers. (The only one that could be would be the Polish one, on territorial basis, but that case would be a bit far-fetched.) Compared to that, I don't think the Ukraine or Belorus would take a USSR / Russian total as lightly, or Croatia a Yugoslav / Serbian total. -- DevSolar (talk) 15:31, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

There is a mistake in Your Summer Olympic Totals for Yugoslavia.

There has to be a mistake as it contradicts the individual totals for Wikipedia's own individual 1996 and 2000 Summer Olympics Medal Tables. Yugoslavia had to begun to break apart already, but still won 7 combined medals under its original name in the 1996 and 2000 Summer Games. According to this table, it won nothing after 1988. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.199.51.94 (talk) 23:12, 5 June 2012 (UTC)

YOG Medals

When you search a medal at the IOC site search gear (http://www.olympic.org/medallists-results), it offers you results for both Olympics and Youth Olympic Games (YOG) medalist (try searching a medal for Bolivia and you'll see). Does anyone knows if a YOG medal is counted as a regular Olympic medal by the IOC? Gvogas (talk) 14:03, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

First medal by year?

Hi all, I thought quite a nice addition to this article would be a section to list the year each NOC won its first medal, as far as I can see such a list does not exist elsewhere. — Preceding unsigned comment added by TF100 (talk • contribs) 09:29, 29 July 2012 (UTC)

Hm, not a bad idea. Just worried about the space--the table is already pretty huge. -- Jonel (Speak to me) 23:03, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

Yes, not a bad idea, but maybe it should be done as a different article, with information such as first medal, Summer/Winter/Overall, and first gold medal, Summer/Winter/Overall. Here it would really get huge.177.17.92.95 (talk) 12:20, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

Egypt

Egypt must be split in Egypt (7/6/9 - 22, EGY) and United Arabic Republic (0/1/1 - 2, UAR) --141.6.11.20 (talk) 14:08, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

The Egyptian Olympic Committee was the NOC for the entire time. -- Jonel (Speak to me) 23:03, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

Serbia is successor

All medals of Serbia and Montenegro and Yugoslavia going under SERBIA! Correct please! 79.175.115.120 (talk) 20:05, 4 August 2012 (UTC)

logic/illogic of GBR/GER/USSR

I fail to see the logic where "great Britain" gets all the medal counts from when it was with the entirety of ireland added to the "modern" GBR. Russia is not gaining USSr's medals -- which is a directly comparable situation. And Germany being separated is probably an even more egregious on a principle standpoint, though the situation is not directly comparable. It looks like the "rules" being applied here are simply biased by the nationality/personal prejudices of editors instead of any non-biased formulaic approach that wikipedia should be applying by in such circumstances. Either GBR's get separated, or russia needs to combined, and in either case germany's should be combined, of course with a footnote noting the years germany competed as more than one team, I guess that is more on principle than anything. On principle I'd combine GER and GBR, but probably not RUS/USSR. Currently though, GBR needs to be seperated if this list is t remain68.115.53.79 (talk) 17:05, 5 August 2012 (UTC)

According to olympic.org British results are counted since the beginning (1896) Great Britain, Russia only include results since 1994, which means even historical Russian results from before the Russian revolution aren't included Russia, while German results are counted between 1896 and 1952, and then again since 1992 (but not 1956-1988) Germany. Lejman (talk) 19:11, 5 August 2012 (UTC)

Medal Count Winners by Year

There was a fantastic table on this page that listed the year, host country, country with most golds, and country with most medals. It was entitled "NOCs with the Most Medals by Olympiad", and it was deleted today by User:Basement12 on the grounds that it declared a "winner" for the Olympic games, something the olympic committees have tried to avoid. I've brought this up on his talk page but I wanted to open the debate here as well. That table merely consolidates information that is listed on the page for each olympiad/olympic games. It is very useful to have it all in one place (especially because it's difficult to find a table like that on other pages). Not to mention the fact that I went crazy looking for it for about an hour after seeing it on this page 5 days ago. I started thinking I had seen things! Here's the link to the old table: [1] — Preceding unsigned comment added by Masterchef604 (talk • contribs) 01:24, 6 August 2012 (UTC)

Czechoslovakia should now be the Czech Republic, surely?

Yes, no? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 1.36.40.71 (talk) 11:14, 6 August 2012 (UTC)

No. It's not fair to the Slovakians. They were on the Czechoslovakia team too. Czolgolz (talk) 14:32, 6 August 2012 (UTC)

Best placement

None of the references provided prove that those are the highest placed finishers for each nation, they prove that such a finish exist but don't confirm that there wasn't anything higher. Unless sources that say "X was the higest ever placed finisher for Y country" then none of that info is verifiable and as such it should be removed. - Basement12 (T.C) 18:00, 6 August 2012 (UTC)

Grenada

Grenada has won 1 gold medal at the 2012 Olympics, but there is 0 indicated in the table. This needs correction. --Inna--46.0.230.104 (talk) 19:59, 7 August 2012 (UTC)

Table wont get updated before the end of the 2012 olympics because it's otherwise impossible to keep track of which countries medals have been updated and which haven't. Lejman (talk) 20:42, 7 August 2012 (UTC)

Cyprus and Grenada

You need to add a 1 in the Silver medal spot for Cyprus. And you need to put Grenada in the countries with a medal and then give them 1 gold. --B.F. Cooper (talk) 03:37, 7 August 2012 (UTC)

Done on Grenada. Well hopefully I did it right.--T. Anthony (talk) 07:07, 7 August 2012 (UTC)

Reverted the good-faith edit because the table isn't supposed to get updated before the end of the 2012 olympics. Otherwise it's pretty much impossible to keep track of which countries medals have been updated and which haven't. Lejman (talk) 20:42, 7 August 2012 (UTC)

USSR/Russia to combine

Russia is the legal successor of the USSR. Should the counts be combined? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Succession_of_states

75.147.19.86 (talk) 15:05, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

don know about that maybe not (USSR was much more than Russia like Yugosloslavia was much more than Serbia) but Russia and Russian Empire should definatly be one (and right now it is seperated)178.210.114.106 (talk) 15:55, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

No. Makes about as much sense as combing USSR's totals with Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Belarus, Moldova, Ukraine, Armenia, Azerbaijan, Georgia, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan, Turkmenistan, and Uzbekistan. Phizzy 20:07, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

How is Russia the successor to the USSR? It's like saying Great Britain should include all Indian and Australian medals from the commonwealth era. Czolgolz (talk) 02:54, 5 August 2012 (UTC)

The IP linked the article Succession of states, which mentions Russia inheriting some obligations from the USSR, and asked if this should be considered for medal counts. The question should be: Is the NOC for Russia (RUS) essentially the same as the former Soviet Union NOC (URS) (basically a re-name) or are they two separate and distinct NOCs? I would answer "no" to the IPs original question and that they are seperate NOCs to my second question. The medals should not be combined. --RacerX¹¹ Talk to me^{Stalk me} 11:18, 5 August 2012 (UTC)

I am having difficulty finding English language proof, but for all intends and purposes, Russia "inherited" matters such as tournament seedings, committee memberships, voting rights, evidenced by numbers of athletes that were able to compete in post-USSR break-up competitions, as opposed to newly formed committees, having to start from the very bottom. And no, suggesting that other republics be combined is not a logical conclusion from my suggestion. Russia inherited things like debt and obligations, whereas other countries did not have to bear it. 75.147.19.86 (talk) 13:11, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

Men's Windglider at the 1984 Olympics

There was a female Windglider event at the 1984 Summer Olympics, but it was an exhibition event and not officially recognized. I thought the men's competition was, but I noticed New Zealand's bronze in the event is not listed in the medal database at olympic.org [2] (Searched for all sailing medals at the 1984 olympics). Other sources: Sports-reference.com lists the results: [3].

Comparision: New Zealand's site on olympics.org [4] lists a 8-1-1 medal score at the olympics (our New Zealand site for the olympics lists a 8-1-2 score (including the Windglider bronze). Similarily the Netherlands page on olympic.org lists a 4-2-6 medal score [5] compared to a 5-2-6 score including a windglider gold at our page and USA's page [6] lists 83-60-30 compared to a medal score of 83-61-30 here with a Windglider silver..

Page 747 of this document [7] indicates the competition was official: "Gold medal winners were as follows: Russell Coutts (NZL), International Finn, 34.70;" /.../ "Stephan Van den Berg (HOL), International Windglider, 22.70." "An Olympic boardsailing exhibition (OBE) was held in Santa Barbara, California on 10-11 August to demonstrate three different boardsailing disciplines"... Lejman (talk) 23:43, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

New sorting method

Because of new sorting method, it's not possible to sort by "gold, silver, bronze" order, and I don't know how can it be possible. Regards,--Simy69 (talk) 08:40, 8 August 2012 (UTC)

I noticed the same thing just now, though I'm not sure how long it has been like this. I have tried a number of ways and nothing works. The procedure stated within the aricle: "To sort by gold, silver, and then bronze, sort first by the bronze column, then the silver, and then the gold." does not work. --RacerX¹¹ Talk to me^{Stalk me} 21:02, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

State that medals for 2012 won't be updated until the end of the games AT THE TOP of the article

I changed the countries that won during 2012 and then I get to the bottom and see the whole not being updated until the end thing. It should be at the top introduction before the chart. It's like going to the bathroom, flushing the toilet, and water hitting you in the face and then on the door, as you're leaving, it says, "Warning. Toilet water may hit you in the face." Mbenzdabest (talk) 11:33, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

It does, in effect already say this (re emphasised)

"An all-time medal table for all Olympic Games from 1896 to 2010, including Summer Olympic Games, Winter Olympic Games, and a combined total of both, is tabulated below. These Olympic medals counts do not include the 1906 Intercalated Games which are no longer recognized by the International Olympic Committee (IOC) as official Games. The IOC itself does not publish all-time tables, and publishes unofficial tables only per single Games. This table was thus compiled by adding up single entries from the IOC database" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.197.91.221 (talk) 08:31, 11 August 2012 (UTC)

It also says "Medal totals in this table are current as of the 2010 Winter Olympics in Vancouver." at the top of the tabel itself and has a hidden note "Please don't add 2012 medals until the Games are completed; additions will be too difficult to keep track of unless they are all handled at one time" that appears at the top of the table in the edit window. Perhaps some people just enjoy toilet water in the face - Basement12 (T.C) 14:14, 11 August 2012 (UTC)

USA: 48 Games / 2549 medals - Germany: 44 Games / 1618 medals - but Germany's are hardly visible!

As a proud Kraut, I am miffed by Wikipedia's current all time medal tally, which I just found right before the start of the 2012 Olympics. I feel it belittles Germany.

Germans got nearly 2/3 as many medals as Americans. Although they participated in fewer games. And although Germany has only 1/4 of the population of the US.

But the present table effectively hides the German all time standings. One has to painstakingly search for German medals in disconnected rows. On talk pages I found attempts to justify this, but they really failed to convince me. After all, Germany is the only official legal representative of all German teams that ever existed!

In a small fraction of the Olympic Games there were two German National Olympic Committees (NOCs). Some call this an unfair advantage. But actually it was a disadvantage, because in numerous team events Germany was not allowed to build a superior team from its best individuals in both NOCs. Instead it had to send inferior teams with less chances of winning a medal.

The Krauts lead the all time Winter Games medal count, and are 2nd in the Summer Games. I feel the table should make this clear. So let me repeat what many have suggested before: add an extra row for all German medals.

To the predominantly American editors of this page: this won't affect the US rank! Kraut Funding (talk) 18:14, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

It's been discussed time and time again, it's like this for the reasons given in those discussions and it has nothing to do with any American (or any other national) bias. It certainly has nothing to do with one nation being ranked higher than any other, hence the default sorting is alphabetical with the ability to sort by medal count added as a concession to editors who do want to see a "winner"; the IOC doesn't recognise any nation as coming 1st/2nd etc in an individual Games let alone in an overall count - Basement12 (T.C) 18:27, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

Please don't say it's not about the ranking when obviously by design it's all about the ranking. A bit like saying beer is not about the taste! You click at the table, and there is the ranking. And the ranking is misleading. It's biased against the Krauts. In particular, it makes the US look much better than the Krauts, although the true gap between them is not that huge. I hope you can see why I feel this should be corrected. (Or remove the ranking feature? I know the IOC forbade medal tallies - but this Wikipedia article obviously does not care.) Nice colors though in your signature, Basement! Kraut Funding (talk) 19:36, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

For what it's worth, I agree with Kraut Funding. West Germany does not equal Germany, nor did either side represent Germany as a whole while the country was divided, even though both states presumed to do so. And in fact, they still competed together under one German Olympic flag until 1968, so obviously East Germany was not some foreign nation non affiliated with Germany. She was a remnant of a country which was forcibly divided and unlike Korea is now reunited and this should be considered in the medal table. The way I see it, the table should have Germany as a whole with all German recorded medals, along with separate East and West German standings. It's really not asking too much. After all when it comes to Kraut bashing, there has never been any notable diversion. In fact, both East and West Germans had to stand in for "Germans", whenever one political block wanted to insult Germans during the Cold War but couldn't afford to alienate their respective allies. Enough said.62.143.178.97 (talk) 09:27, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for the encouragement. I am attaching the corrected table. "N. Summer" and "N. Winter" count the games where at least one Kraut participated. (Sometimes Germany was banned. During certain boycotts only parts of Germany participated.) I also corrected "N. Summer" for the US.

Team (IOC code)	№ Summer	Gold	Silver	Bronze	Total	№ Winter	Gold	Silver	Bronze	Total	№ Games	Gold	Silver	Bronze	Combined Total
United States (USA)	25	929	729	638	2296	23	87	95	71	253	48	1016	824	709	2549
Germany (GER)	23	400	413	447	1260	21	128	129	101	358	44	528	542	548	1618

All that remains to be done now is to insert the corrected rows in the article's table. Kraut Funding (talk) 16:34, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

German medals should not be combined with East German medals. Two reasons. One, this is not how the IOC does it. They separate out the medals for each of Germany and East Germany because they were separate nations, competing under separate NOCs. Secondly, those medals were won by separate NOCs. Medals of the Soviet Union are not combined with Russia or Russian Empire. Australasia medals are not combined with Australia and/or New Zealand. Etc. To combine them is NPOV pushing. The table follows the IOC standards, IOC doesn't combine, so the table doesn't. If someone wants to add them to compare, they can do those additions themselves. End of story. Ravendrop 17:08, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

Not convincing. 1. You say "This is not how the IOC does it." But the IOC does not even compute all time medal counts at all! As pointed out by others, the present article has a WP:No original research problem anyway. 2. You compare Soviets/Russians etc to Krauts. But many Soviets were not Russians. The German NOCs, however, were all German. Kraut Funding (talk) 19:07, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

Kraut is right. This table confuses the reader about the total medal count of the German team. IOC has no influence on the outcome here. The split of the German medal count was wrong in the past and is wrong now. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.179.143.118 (talk) 20:36, 29 July 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for the support! I did some more research. It's clear that this article violates WP:No original research. The IOC does not do all time medal tallies. The article does, without proper source. So it's an easy target for deletion.

The only way out may be this paragraph of WP:No original research: "Routine calculations do not count as original research. Basic arithmetic, such as adding numbers, converting units, or calculating a person's age, is allowed provided there is consensus among editors that the calculation is an obvious, correct, and meaningful reflection of the sources."

However, it's clear that the "basic arithmetic" conditions are not met, as there is no consensus among editors. Proud Krauts like myself think all Germans are equal, and all their medals count. Many all time medals tallies on the web adopt this view. But here at Wikipedia some editors disagree, for whatever reasons.

To satisfy WP:No original research, one could create separate Wikipedia articles for each source offering a different medal tally. Not sure that's what we should strive for.

Or we find a consensus on what's right. Not easy, because such tables are unfair in so many ways! Some nations participated often. Others didn't. The US participated almost always. Soviets did so rarely (and usually won when they did). Germany often was banned. The US all time medal count greatly profited from the 1984 boycott of the two strongest NOCs of that era: USSR and East Germany. And from the fact that in 1904 just a few non-US athletes participated. Similar possibly "unfair" advantages existed for other nations hosting early Olympics. In rare cases, Germany profited from having two teams (East & West) winning two team event medals where a single team could have won only one. More often Germany suffered as it was not allowed to build a medal-winning team from its best individuals in both NOCs.

I am sure many other sources of "unfairness" could be found. But let's remove at least one obvious such source: Don't split the German medals.

Krauts have feelings, too! Germans stripped of East German medals feel like Americans stripped of East Coast medals. Kraut Funding (talk) 20:46, 29 July 2012 (UTC)

Basement21, I found that today you undid my corrections in a way that exhibits a certain bias: 1. You inserted wrong (underestimated) "N. Games" for the US. 2. You claimed there was a consensus to split the German medals. There wasn't. Obvious from the present thread and the talk archives. I'd greatly appreciate if you didn't identify "consensus" with your own personal preferences. Note that the US is still #1 even when you don't split the German medals! Note also (as shown above) that lack of consensus implies: article violates WP:No original research. Kraut Funding (talk) 18:53, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

There is long-standing consensus that separate NOCs should be counted separately. It's objective, it requires only arithmetic, and it doesn't require getting into issues of whether two NOCs create an advantage or a disadvantage. We don't add together Netherlands and Aruba, or Great Britain and British Virgin Islands, or any other instances where there are/were two separate teams. We don't go through Yugoslavia results to pick out which medals were won by this nationality or that. If Guor Marial wins a medal this year, we won't add that to the South Sudan results in the table (though we will, appropriately, mention it in text on the South Sudan at the Summer Olympics page). -- Jonel (Speak to me) 22:56, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

How can you claim there is a long-standing consensus? Please provide evidence if you can find any! Which I doubt - this thread and the archives show that there is no consensus whatsoever. It's not always easy to guess nationalities of editors, but the archives seem to have a lot of: Americans & Brits vs Krauts. Again: lack of consensus implies that the article violates the "basic arithmetic condition" of WP:No original research and thus is ripe for deletion. I'd prefer to find a consensus though. Kraut Funding (talk) 07:47, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

User:Kraut Funding. It appears from your comments that have read at least some of the previous discussions. If you have read through the archived discussions you may have seen that the German medals were at one time split into four different entries [8]: Germany (GER), West Germany (FRG), East Germany (GDR) and Unified Team of Germany (EUA). The ensuing discussions from that unfortunate situation led to the current two-entry table. There were those who argued for the four-entry version, but it was decided to include the FRG and EUA medals in with GER, but leave GDR seperate. This is the current stable version. Sorry but it is your arguments that I find unconvincing. I can see no reason why the medals of two countries, two seperate NOCs, competeting at the same Games, should be combined into one total. It's just the plain and simple fact they competed at the same time is what I can't get around, regardless if it was fair or unfair, an advantage or not. --RacerX¹¹ Talk to me^{Stalk me} 08:08, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

Sure, as you say, they competed against each other at the same time, instead of working together to get more medals, but why use this fact to make Germans look worse? What's the basic problem? They were all Krauts. Kraut Funding (talk) 08:19, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

The basic problem is they competed against each other. Two different teams. Yes, it would tend to hurt any country if it were have to field two seperate squads in the team events. They would be unable to put forth their best team. Its a disadvantage in general, but that's irrelevant. Also irrelevant is that East Germany, in spite of this disadvantage, managed to become a very successful Olympic power during that time. It is relevant however that East Germany and West Germany at times each won medals at the same team events because, more importantly, it was possible to do so; something that is an impossiblity for all other countries competing as single entities. Addressing another point, they were all German yes, but they competed as West Germans and as East Germans and at the time (I'm old enough to remember) this distinction was made very clear to everyone. Trust me, I have no desire to make Germany "look worse" and it has nothing to do with whether the situation was an advantage or disavantage. They were clearly two seperate teams competing against each other. It makes no sense to combine them. --RacerX¹¹ Talk to me^{Stalk me} 10:52, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, had an edit conflict earlier and didn't read your latest post and that you have indeed read the archives. If you feel a proper consensus was never reached, I have no problem with attempting to reach one now. I for one oppose a single German entry medal table. --RacerX¹¹ Talk to me^{Stalk me} 08:43, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

Well, this thread and the archives show there are quite a few who support a single German entry. So we don't have a consensus. This probably means the article should be deleted, for the reasons above. Or what about this: keep two German entries, but add an entry with all medals of all Krauts. Kraut Funding (talk) 08:19, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

In my opinion, it would have to be done outside the table in a footnote or something. I dont know if it could be done in a way that would please most everyone. Are you planning to propose this article be deleted by the way? --RacerX¹¹ Talk to me^{Stalk me} 10:52, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

East Germany should be seperate they had an own national olympic commitee (the national olympic commitee of the German Democratic Republic) everythng else was German olympic commitee which was renamed (just renamed) German Olympic Sports Federation a the early 2000s 178.210.114.106 (talk) 16:00, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

To this I answer: They were all Germans. Imagine somebody taking away a third of the medals of your compatriots! Kraut Funding (talk) 08:19, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

I personally think an all time medal table is irrelevant anyway, as many more medals are awarded in (for example) the combat sports and weightlifting than in football. More useful to me (and not requiring any original research) would be to put each nation's ranking by year together on one page, so that one can see how nations have risen and fallen in the rankings. Has this been done anywhere ? Rmallett (talk) 17:21, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

Is this something like what you have in mind? Its a pretty cool interactive graphic and gives one an easy to way to see trends in strength for different countries. --RacerX¹¹ Talk to me^{Stalk me} 10:52, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

Yes, I had forgotten about that one, thanks. Rmallett (talk) 18:13, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

Editors should be aware that this discussion has been canvassed at Talk:Germany and Talk:Germany at the Olympics in violation of WP:CANVASS, see [9] and [10]. These violate the canvassing prohibition against campaigning messages and possibly votestacking. Kahastok talk 14:11, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

Thanks, Kahastok - I was not aware of canvassing policies. Sorry! Kraut Funding (talk) 20:07, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

• Good lord, not this argument again! Every Olympiad, like clockwork... To summarize the consensus on this article, we do not combine the totals for East Germany and Germany in this article because there were two NOCs (two teams) competing from 1968–1988. This is a unique situation in Olympic history. We've actually gone further than most sources by combining the GER, EUA and FRG totals together. The International Society of Olympic Historians, whose own tables can be found at Sports-Reference [11], only combine the GER and EUA teams, leaving FRG and GDR as separate entries. Why must this always turn into a nationalistic debate (look at the headline; making this a USA vs. Germany issue!!) instead of encyclopedic content based on reliable sources? — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 18:34, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

Andrwsc, you cite some sources that split German medals. You know that many other sources don't. So this is not a convincing argument. In the archives there is no evidence for your so-called consensus. Where is it? Imagine somebody taking away a third of the medals of your compatriots! This can't be right. That's why there never was a consensus. That's why there never will be a consensus. Without correction, this will come up again and again, as it has done before. Once more: lack of consensus implies that the article violates the "basic arithmetic condition" of WP:No original research. So it's just one step from deletion. Kraut Funding (talk) 20:07, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

Actually if you look through the Archives, there are countless topics on this subject about combining all German results. But as is stated before, they competed as two separate NOC's and it has nothing to do with the results being biased towards any country. BosleyTree (talk) 20:21, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

Sure, there are countless topics on this subject in the archives. And no consensus. The issue is not whether the IOC once had two German NOCs. The issue is how to combine medals of those two NOCs in an all time medal tally, although all time medal tallies are not supported by the IOC. Wikipedia editors had to conduct original research to obtain this table. Since there is no consensus, it looks like the entire table must go. Kraut Funding (talk) 21:02, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

Combining medals of separate NOCs would be original research. Appeals to nationalism or emotion are ("how would you feel") do not advance the argument. Should we next combine KOR and PRK because they're all Koreans? I think not. Also, your repeated references to deletion are getting old. WP:AFD is that-a-way, if you truly believe that there is no consensus for the common sense proposition that separate NOCs get counted separately and that this article violates policy. -- Jonel (Speak to me) 01:00, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

Germany is one nation that has been divided into separate states after WW II but not different nations. The current German NOC isn't simply the former West German one, as the two NOC's merged equally. Hence, the current article is not locical. If you follow the argument made by Andrwsc and others, you could also sum up the East German medals and the medals won by the unified German teams and count the West German medals separate. So either count them all as separate, or sum them all up. The current situation makes no sense and there will never be a consensus on a solution like that. I would prefer to combine them. If there will ever be a unified Korea, we should also combine KOR and PRK. Simply because they're all Koreans! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.34.179.78 (talk) 21:08, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

Stupid anti-German bullshit, as very 4 years, and in between. -- Matthead  Discuß   21:50, 2 August 2012 (UTC)

Andrwsc deleted my harmless text (a compact form of the above) from Talk:Germany at the Olympics, calling it a "racial epithet for Germans". I must say that I consider this the lowest form of personal attack. I feel hurt. Is this the Wikipedia way of "consensus building"? Kraut Funding (talk) 09:25, 3 August 2012 (UTC)

I can hardly believe this person somehow became an administrator, calling other editors racists. Kraut Funding (talk) 19:47, 6 August 2012 (UTC)

The word "Kraut" is noted on this encyclopedia as a derogatory term for Germans, and also appears in our List of ethnic slurs article. It is grossly inappropriate to post things like "It's biased against the Krauts", "Krauts have feelings, too", etc. I believe your username is against the Wikipedia:Username policy. I suggest you create a new account, or this will be noted at WP:Usernames for administrator attention. — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 20:01, 6 August 2012 (UTC)

I expected an apology; instead I seem to observe evasive action. Are you really suggesting that a Kraut calling himself a Kraut is racist??? Can't a Kraut make fun of himself any more? Kraut Funding (talk) 22:09, 6 August 2012 (UTC)

Actually German results should be divided further if to fit how IOC does it. On IOC's page you can see different teams results in different olympic games; see http://www.olympic.org/sweden . On the right it lists Sweden's medal totals in each olympic game. The equivalent, http://www.olympic.org/germany , lists German medal totals in several olympic games, including all results up to 1936, as well as the German totals in 1952 and from 1992. Medals in the 1956 to 1988 games are not included. So that's how they do the medal count.Lejman (talk) 14:57, 5 August 2012 (UTC)

Those that advocate for combining the medals of Germany, West Germany, and East Germany seem to simply (and conveniently) ignore the fact that West Germany and East Germany competed as two separate NOCs. Because of this, the following was made possible:

1972, in women's 4x100 meter relay, West Germany won the gold medal, East Germany won the silver medal. This is only possible because they were separate NOCs, so combining them is unfair to other NOCs. Other examples:

1972, in women's 4x400 meter relay, East Germany won the gold medal, West Germany won the bronze medal.

1972, in boxing, light middleweight, West Germany won the gold medal, East Germany won the bronze medal.

1976, in women's 4x100 meter relay, East Germany won the gold medal, West Germany won the silver medal.

1976, in boxing, welterweight, East Germany won the gold medal, West Germany won the bronze medal.

There are many more examples as well. 198.212.237.48 (talk) 18:42, 6 August 2012 (UTC)

Boxing is an individual sport - so it's not an issue here! In individual sports, frequently athletes from the same country (with a single NOC) win not only gold but also silver and/or bronze. The only issue are team sports such as relays where you can have only one team per NOC. In very rare cases, Germany profited from having two NOCs (East & West) winning two team event medals where a single NOC could have won only one. You found a few examples of relays. In most team sports, however, Germany suffered as it was not allowed to build a medal-winning team from its best individuals in both NOCs! Relays and other team sports are heavily biased towards large countries/NOCs - if the world's best swimmer came from a tiny country he couldn't win any relay medals for lack of excellent compatriots.

Apart from this, all time medal tables are unfair in many ways. Some nations participated often. Others didn't. The US participated almost always. Soviets did so rarely (and usually won when they did). Germany often was banned. That is, it couldn't participate as often as many others. The US all time medal count greatly profited from the 1984 boycott of the two strongest NOCs of that era: USSR and East Germany. And from the fact that in 1904 just a few non-US athletes participated. Similar possibly "unfair" advantages existed for other nations hosting early Olympics. I am sure many other sources of "unfairness" could be found. But let's remove at least one obvious such source: Don't split the German medals. Kraut Funding (talk) 19:47, 6 August 2012 (UTC)

It is true that Germany possibly could have won more medals if East and West Germany did not compete seperately, as Germany would have fielded stronger teams in many instances. In fact, it is likely Germany would have won more medals in team competitions. However, we cannot say with certainty that Germany would have. We can say with certainty that separate teams did win some medals that they would not have if Germany was just one NOC (based on the examples above).

Looking at the actual medal counts, it strongly suggests that East and West Germany won more medals as separate countries than if they competed as one. Look at the actual results from the 1968 through 2008 Olympics. From 1968 through 1988, East and West Germany won between 9.7% and 21.0% of all medals, combined. From 1992 through 2008 (competing as one Germany) Germany only won between 4.3% and 10.1% of all medals.

Year	Nation	Total Medals	Percent of Total Medals
1968	East Germany (GDR)	25
1968	West Germany (FRG)	26
1968	Germany (GER)	51	9.7%
1972	East Germany (GDR)	66
1972	West Germany (FRG)	40
1972	Germany (GER)	106	17.7%
1976	East Germany (GDR)	90
1976	West Germany (FRG)	39
1976	Germany (GER)	129	21.0%
1988	East Germany (GDR)	102
1988	West Germany (FRG)	40
1988	Germany (GER)	142	19.2%
1992	Germany (GER)	82	10.1%
1996	Germany (GER)	65	7.7%
2000	Germany (GER)	56	6.0%
2004	Germany (GER)	49	5.3%
2008	Germany (GER)	41	4.3%

There was a precipitous drop off from 1988 to 1992. Based on these numbers, it seems that Germans had a big advantage competing for two separate countries. If Germans had competed for a single country from 1968 through 1988, it seems pretty clear the medal counts would not be nearly as high. Phizzy 20:58, 6 August 2012 (UTC)

You argue one shouldn't speculate what might have happened. Then you post speculations. During Cold-War-2-NOC times, Germany did not excel because there were 2 NOCs. It excelled because of one of those NOCs: 16m East Germans outperformed 240m Americans and sometimes even 270m Soviets. Sure, one could speculate what might have happened if 60m West Germans had taken this as seriously as the East Germans. But once more: all time medal tables are unfair in many ways, for historic reasons. Some nations participated often. Others didn't. Some profited from boycotts. Others suffered. Some were banned. The all time medal table, however, ignores all such pro-US sources of bias. But some editors insist on keeping the particular bias against Germany. Kraut Funding (talk) 21:53, 6 August 2012 (UTC)

I don't really think East German results are much to be proud of considering the amount of doping that was going on at the time. That said I'm aware there are cases from my [12] too, much to my dismay. East Germany and West Germany were different countries. Many times parts of countries have participated in the Olympics (eg. Finland in 1908 despite being part of Russia, Australia/Australasia before independence, Netherlands Antilles until 2008, US Virgin Islands today, etc), but those scores have never been added up as part of the parent entity. I don't disagree that a listing showing Russia's, Germany, Serbia's etc assembled results would be interesting to put in seperate article. (I do not approve of adding it to this article, other than a "See Also" link and maybe footnotes on affected countries.) I don't think it would be fair to add East German and West German results even in that list, but Germany-EUN-West Germany-Germany could be fair. I would like to warn you though, even without adding East Germany's results in, it'd be fair to make a calculation for Russia with Russian Empire-Soviet Union-Russia, but also Latvia-Soviet Union-Latvia, Soviet Union-Turkmenistan, Bohemia-Czechoslovakia-Czech Republic, Serbia-Yugoslavia-IOP-Serbia and Montenegro-Yugoslavia-Serbia etc.Lejman (talk) 00:10, 7 August 2012 (UTC)

Bringing up the doping issue will open yet a different can of worms, affecting many NOCs in the table. Remarkably, most official doping convictions so far involve US athletes. I agree that doping in general is an important issue, but it's really orthogonal to the present discussion. Kraut Funding (talk) 07:38, 7 August 2012 (UTC)

Certainly. Here's a list of some countries to add:

• Russian Empire - Soviet Union - Unified Team - Russia
• Russian Empire - Estonia - Soviet Union - Estonia
• Russian Empire - Latvia - Soviet Union - Latvia
• Russian Empire - Lithuania - Soviet Union - Lithuania
• Russian Empire - Soviet Union - Unified Team - Armenia
• Russian Empire - Soviet Union - Unified Team - Azerbaijan
• Russian Empire - Soviet Union - Unified Team - Belarus
• Russian Empire - Soviet Union - Unified Team - Georgia
• Russian Empire - Soviet Union - Unified Team - Kazakhstan
• Russian Empire - Soviet Union - Unified Team - Kyrgyzstan
• Russian Empire - Soviet Union - Unified Team - Tajikistan
• Russian Empire - Soviet Union - Unified Team - Turkmenistan
• Russian Empire - Soviet Union - Unified Team - Ukraine
• Germany - Unified Team of Germany - West Germany - Germany
• Germany - Unified Team of Germany - East Germany - Germany
• Bohemia - Czechoslovakia - Czech Republik
• Hungary - Czechoslovakia - Slovakia
• Austria - Yugoslavia - Slovenia
• Serbia - Yugoslavia - IOP - Yugoslavia - Serbia and Montenegro - Serbia
• Yugoslavia - IOP - Yugoslavia - Serbia and Montenegro - Montenegro
• Serbia - IOP - Yugoslavia - Macedonia

etc - Lejman (talk) 12:48, 7 August 2012 (UTC)

GDR seperate NOC

the NOC of the GDR was a seperate entity - GDR (socalled East Germany) should be listed seperate — Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.3.76.108 (talk) 16:46, 4 August 2012 (UTC)

GDR had the NOC of the GDR that was a NOC of its own, while the 19th century funded Frankurt am Main based German NOC served the German REich (Kaiser/WeimarRepublic/Nazi) and both Germanies in the 50ies and 60ies and after the establishment of the NOC of the GDR only the Federal REpublic of Germany (which is the country that still exist because in 1990 there was not a new Germany establich, but the GDR and the NOC of the GDR where abolished and the land/people/organisation joind the Federal REpublic of Germany and the German NOC 134.3.76.108 (talk) 18:20, 4 August 2012 (UTC)

the section (of the article) clearly says NOCs with medals not countries/nations with medals and the GDR had in the 70ies and 80ies an NOC of it's own the NOC of the GDR, so please do not change that all the time 134.3.76.108 (talk) 18:22, 4 August 2012 (UTC)

This is going round in circles. Old arguments reappear again and again. It's obvious there won't be a consensus. Maybe a solution could be to have a separate article with a table on nations, not NOCs. Kraut Funding (talk) 19:47, 6 August 2012 (UTC)

After London 2012 Olympics

Below the updated and corrected rows for US and Germany. "N. Summer" and "N. Winter" = Games where at least one German athlete participated. (Germans were banned 5 times; during 2 boycotts only parts of Germany participated.)

Country	№ Summer	Gold	Silver	Bronze	Total	№ Winter	Gold	Silver	Bronze	Total	№ Games	Gold	Silver	Bronze	Combined Total
United States (USA)	26	974	757	668	2399	21	87	95	71	253	47	1061	852	739	2652
Germany (GER)	24	411	432	461	1304	19	128	129	101	358	43	539	561	562	1662

There are plenty of sources on the web that do it this way, including Europe's largest news magazine (which also combines Russia and Soviet Union - this may be more problematic). Since there is no consensus (see above) on how to insert Germany in the table: what about making a separate table on nations instead of NOCs? Can we have a consensus on this? Kraut Funding (talk) 08:31, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

You can have a link to WP:OR. Please stop wasting everyone's time going repeatedly over this ground that has been covered many times before - Basement12 (T.C) 09:19, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

I must say I fail to find your comment extremely helpful, Basement12. It seems to imply there is nothing novel in my recent post. It has two novelties though: the updated rows of 2012, and the question: Can we have a consensus on a separate table on nations instead of NOCs? You are right about the link to WP:OR - but I'd still prefer some sort of consensus. Kraut Funding (talk) 09:31, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

As Wikipedia policy is against OR you don't need a consensus; such a table is simply not allowed - Basement12 (T.C) 09:51, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

I agree that the nation table would have the same WP:OR "basic arithmetics" problem as the current NOC table. Would you be in favor of abandoning/deleting both tables? I guess I could live with that. Kraut Funding (talk) 10:20, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

For the Olympics, everything is based on NOCs, not nations in the political science sense. We're not going to attempt the original research of tables by nation. -- Jonel (Speak to me) 11:55, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

Spoken with authority, Jonel! You must be the one in charge. Before you make our decision, could you perhaps answer this question. Why is the current table's OR on NOCs any better than OR on nations? Kraut Funding (talk) 08:15, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

Adding is not OR. Determining who belongs in what nation is. -- Jonel (Speak to me) 12:03, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

Please read again the rest of this thread to see that adding is OR in absence of consensus. Kraut Funding (talk) 07:33, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

Please read again the rest of this thread in which multiple people have pointed out that there is consensus, despite your insistence on pushing a nationalistic POV. -- Jonel (Speak to me) 15:08, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

Claiming there is a consensus is like claiming oranges are blue! Just look at the numerous voices of dissent in this thread and the archives. And how can you accuse me of pushing nationalistic POV when it's actually you and a few others whose actions make the US look bigger than they really are in relation to other nations? Kraut Funding (talk) 09:30, 19 August 2012 (UTC)

Even better: a table on nations instead of NOCs can be made without any OR whatsoever, since there are hundreds of sources that already did it. Usually they also combine medals of Russia and USSR. Here just a few of many examples: Winter http://www.medaillenspiegel.org/olympia-2010-vancouver/ewiger-medaillenspiegel-der-olympischen-winterspiele/, Summer http://de.statista.com/statistik/daten/studie/1451/umfrage/ewiger-medaillenspiegel-der-olympischen-sommerspiele/ , Total of 2010 http://olympia-im-livestream.de/medaillenspiegel/die-olympischen-sommerspiele-ewiger-medaillenspiegel/ Kraut Funding (talk) 08:02, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

All right, so this seems settled. If I only had a bit more time to start this new table! Kraut Funding (talk) 07:57, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

Please do not archive - thread still of relevance → [13] --IIIraute (talk) 03:07, 6 November 2012 (UTC)

NOCs without medals list doubtful?

> As of August 11th, 2012, 73 of the current 204 National Olympic Committees have not yet won an Olympic medal, but this article does not cite any references or sources.

The list contains several african countries with a participation history in 7-8-10 summer games, yet no medals at all, not even a bronze earned? This feels incredulous, since the black people are obviously more athletically built and more inclined to athletics, compared to other races of humankind. Being good at running, for example, does not need high GDP and space age infrastructure, so how can one truly believe that Congo has nil summer medals? 91.82.37.52 (talk) 10:54, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

The blatant racism of your post aside, it is what it is. A lot of those nations are too poor, underpopulated, wracked by war, etc, to field a competing team. Check out the official Olympic site if you feel there's been a specific error, but not everyone wins. Czolgolz (talk) 16:57, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

That many many African nations lack medals, or do poorly at the Olympics, is well-documented and has been reported on.[14] Gabon's first medal was in taekwondo and that was well reported.[15][16] At the 2012 Olympics Nigeria, which I believe is the most populous African nation, won nothing.[17]--T. Anthony (talk) 19:09, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

Now that Olympics are over

I think it would be wise thing to protect this page. And to somehow organize adding medals to the list. That is lots of work, and I guess there will be lots of doubled information. Nightfall87 (talk) 17:21, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

I'm sure protection would be helpful during the time it takes to make the changes, though it appears user:‎Lejman is in progress updating the table now. Personally, I think it would have been a good idea to protect the page for the entire duration of the Olympics. The number of reverts in the edit history, the IP edit wars, etc. indicate alot of needless edits over the past two weeks. --RacerX¹¹ Talk to me^{Stalk me} 19:33, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

I've so far only added medals+participation of countries with medals. Countries that participated but didn't medal in this olympics haven't been updated in either the "NOCs with medals" or "NOCs without medals" lists. It's also possible there were more countries with partially updated stats that I didn't notice, or that I made an error somewhere. I can start with updating participants though. -- Lejman (talk) 21:12, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for the update on...well, your update. The effort is much appreciated! --RacerX¹¹ Talk to me^{Stalk me} 21:24, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

Cool, I appreciate it! -- Lejman (talk) 21:31, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

Yes, thank you for all your hard work. Czolgolz (talk) 18:10, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

Wrong totals for Russia

There was a mistake in the totals of Russian Federation - 1 Gold lesser, 1 Silver more, 3 Bronze lesser. I changed those and all summaries. Got the totals from other wiki pages for the specific olympics and also IOC lists. Hope it is ok i changed those. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.133.0.122 (talk) 07:57, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

Russia versus Germany

The IOC uses two different codes for (Unified) Germany: EUA for the Unified Team of Germany (1956-1964) and GER for all other appearances of unified Germany (German Empire 1896-1912, German Reich 1928-1936 and Federal Republic of Germany 1992-2012). Yet these two are combined here. On the other hand, medals of the Russian Federation and the Russian Empire are not combined. What is the logic behind this? Vanjagenije (talk) 20:20, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

They're not the same thing. The Russian empire included much of (but not all of) the future Soviet Territory, as well as other places, such as Finland. Czolgolz (talk) 20:25, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

That is correct, but German Empire also included much of the present-day Poland and some parts of Russia, Lithuania, France and Denmark. What is the difference between the Russian and German situation? It seems like we are using double standards here. Vanjagenije (talk) 20:46, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

Have a look through the talk page archives, I'm sure you can find almost endless discussion on this subject - Basement12 (T.C) 20:50, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

I actually think the EUN medals for Germany should be separated. The reason for this being that olympic.org doesn't list them as Germany's. German medals from before 1956 should still count though, as that's how olympic.org does it. Sources: Russia (goes back to 1994 only) and Germany (lists games 1896-1952 and 1992-today, but not 1956-1988). -- Lejman (talk) 05:01, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

I agree with Lejman. How come Unified Team's Medals don't stand in total with Soviet Union ? Same way, Germany's totals must not include Unified Germany medals. At least that is my opinion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.133.0.122 (talk) 08:32, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

I agree too, It's not the same country --SγωΩηΣ ^tαlk 13:53, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

Did the edit, I was very surprised West German results were included in the total. -- Lejman (talk) 01:33, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

yes it is the same country. There never was a West Germany there just is a Federal REpublic of Germany which was founded in 1949 and still exists. It's the same country (just with more territory and you can not seriously argue that a territorial change makes a new country) and the same NOC. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.3.76.108 (talk) 15:01, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

I understand your point but there are other instances where countries old results don't continue after territorial changes. Examples being Russian Empire vs Russia, Bohemia vs Czech republic and Yugoslavia/Serbia and Montenegro/Serbia. It's a bit curious that old German (pre-1940) results count, but that's how IOC seems to do it, so I'll support that. - Lejman (talk) 02:56, 29 August 2012 (UTC)

having two Russias is BS but having 4 Germany (although only two there have on ly ever been 2 German NOC) is BS as well - and btw. Yugoslavia/=Serbia USSR/=Russia178.210.114.106 (talk) 08:24, 29 August 2012 (UTC)

Serbia today is the successor of Federal Republic of Yugoslavia and Serbia and Montenegro (it also claimed succession of Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia, but was not recognized). Evidently IOC doesn't recognize successor states. EUA represented two NOCs, which may be why it isn't included. -- Lejman (talk) 15:18, 29 August 2012 (UTC)

In support of Lejman, Germany must be kept separated. Yes, West Germany was a different country. Only because of the existense of 2 different German countries it was possible to send a certain amount of athletes. Also, those were different NOC's. Successor states can't be counted. And Russia is not the successor of USSR only. Russia is separated into 4 too: Russian Federation, Russian Empire, USSR and Unified Team. Those must stay the way they are. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.177.102.250 (talk) 15:07, 31 August 2012 (UTC)

article list country codes not countries or NOC

Frankfurt based 'German NOC' is seperated in Germany, United Germany and West Germany (a that country never existed). so the list should not be call 'Medals by NOC' if it does not list Medals by NOC but Medals by Country code. 134.3.76.108 (talk) 15:11, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

Please do not archive - comment still of relevance → [18] --IIIraute (talk) 03:10, 6 November 2012 (UTC)

Germany: four different entries?

Why are the German medals split again into four different entries: Germany (GER), West Germany (FRG), East Germany (GDR) and Unified Team of Germany (EUA), although there had been consensus to have only two entries: Germany and East Germany. --IIIraute (talk) 05:50, 4 November 2012 (UTC)

The IOC officially considers those separate entities and does not combine their medals. Jmj713 (talk) 17:33, 4 November 2012 (UTC)

No, a stable version with overall consensus to have only two entries: Germany and East Germany has been changed on 23. August [19] --IIIraute (talk) 20:46, 4 November 2012 (UTC)

Well, that would go against the IOC. Jmj713 (talk) 20:55, 4 November 2012 (UTC)

The IOC does not publish lists - see previous talk(s) above/archive.--IIIraute (talk) 21:15, 4 November 2012 (UTC)

But they do separate them by NOCs. Jmj713 (talk) 21:33, 4 November 2012 (UTC)

Just to give everyone some background. After extensive discussions on this in early 2010 without reaching consensus, another discussion was initiated in December 2010 see here. The consensus was reached between about 3 or 4 editors, conducted during a "dead time" when there was not a great deal of activity on the Olympic pages. User:Devsolar's [20] and User:Matthead's [21] edits combined to make the two-entry German version that lasted until the change this year. I am not saying that the editors in 2010 did anything sneaky, but I remember some talk somewhere about rekindling the discussion at a later, more productive time, when there was less activity on the pages. I dont remember if it was the same editors who said that, but the fact of the matter remains: That consensus was reached by a relatively small number of editors compared to number of participents in discussions before and since on the same topic. --RacerX¹¹ Talk to me^{Stalk me} 21:36, 4 November 2012 (UTC)

In these previous discussions I'm seeing some mentions of national bias, such as perceived notion that this "four Germanys" tilts the table in USA's favor. Nothing could be further from the truth, from my perspective. I'm simply adhering to common sense when dealing with NOCs: GER and FRG are not the same. Neither is EUA. These are all separate historical entities. The results for GER (Germany) should only include those accrued when it was just Germany, that is 1896–1952, 1992–. That 1952 is iffy, but workable, all in all. Anything else messes up the NOCs as they are. Jmj713 (talk) 21:44, 4 November 2012 (UTC)

The revisionist four entries solution will NEVER become a stable version - please let me quote RacerX regarding this matter: "If you have read through the archived discussions you may have seen that the German medals were at one time split into four different entries: Germany (GER), West Germany (FRG), East Germany (GDR) and Unified Team of Germany (EUA). The ensuing discussions from that unfortunate situation led to the current two-entry table. There were those who argued for the four-entry version, but it was decided to include the FRG and EUA medals in with GER, but leave GDR seperate. This is the current stable version." --IIIraute (talk) 21:48, 4 November 2012 (UTC)

Excuse me while I insert a comment here. I've had this page on my watchlist for over two years. I didn't revert when it was changed to two-entries and I didn't revert when it was changed to four-entries, so I guess I am essentially neutral. I do think it is an unfortunate situation that German medals are divided into four different IOCs. Also, yes the two-entry version was stable in that it remained for over twenty months, though not challenged during that time. But you took my quote out of context. That was in response to an editor you wished to combine them all into a single entry, which I was and still am 100% opposed. That post is how I felt about it on that day. That all said, the more I think about it today, I would have to lean toward a four-entry version, unfortunate as it may be, for the reason I have stated below. Thank you. --RacerX¹¹ Talk to me^{Stalk me} 23:02, 4 November 2012 (UTC)

Seems to me combining NOCs would be tantamount to OR. Jmj713 (talk) 21:51, 4 November 2012 (UTC)

As mentioned above, the list uses country codes not NOC's. Germany and West Germany always had the same NOC.--IIIraute (talk) 21:53, 4 November 2012 (UTC)

You can view the list as you wish, but why veer from the IOC? In their records they separate Germany from West Germany, just like they separate Russia from Russian Empire. You just need to look at the broader picture here. The IOC, in these cases, sticks to separate geopolitical entities, not even NOCs, because they do combine Taiwan's records as both ROC and TPE, since that is still the same geopolitical entity. Not so with Germany, which ceased to exist as such after WW2. Jmj713 (talk) 21:56, 4 November 2012 (UTC)

Why veer from the German NOC? That should do as a source. The IOC does not publish "All time medal tables". --IIIraute (talk) 22:02, 4 November 2012 (UTC)

Again, I'm not talking about tables. Go to olympic.org and look up records for countries for certain years. You won't find Germany for when West Germany existed. Jmj713 (talk) 22:04, 4 November 2012 (UTC)

...that's only a source - so is the official German NOC [22].--IIIraute (talk) 22:10, 4 November 2012 (UTC

I would think the IOC would supersede any NOC. Jmj713 (talk) 22:11, 4 November 2012 (UTC)

that's your personal opinion - the official German NOC should do as a source (since it's part of the IOC).--IIIraute (talk) 22:14, 4 November 2012 (UTC)

The three-letter IOC code is the name assigned to the NOC. If two different IOC codes clearly represent essentially the same NOC and the same geopolitical entity (a simple rename), then we can combine the entries. In all other cases, the IOC codes must remain seperate entries imo. --RacerX¹¹ Talk to me^{Stalk me} 22:18, 4 November 2012 (UTC)

Check the link you provided (http://www.olympic.org/germany), IIIraute, and check the Olympic Medals section. It omits all games from 1952 to 1992. So, your own source confirms what I was just explaining. Jmj713 (talk) 22:20, 4 November 2012 (UTC)

Absolutely agree, Racer. In the case of Germany and West Germany, they are clearly not the same, or even similar, geopolitical entities. Jmj713 (talk) 22:22, 4 November 2012 (UTC)

Bute the same NOC - check the NOC Identity Card: Otto-Fleck-Schneise 12 60528 Frankfurt am Main Germany Creation date: 1895 Recognition date: 1895 --IIIraute (talk) 23:05, 4 November 2012 (UTC)

And Germany participated in the Olympics from 1896. I'm not sure what that has to do with this particular topic. Jmj713 (talk) 23:10, 4 November 2012 (UTC)

It's the same NOC, located in Frankfurt for West Germany and Germany since 1895 [[23]] --IIIraute (talk) 23:16, 4 November 2012 (UTC)

I'm not sure that has anything to do with our current discussion. Germany of 1896 and West Germany are not the same geopolitical entities. There are claims that having four entries for Germany is somehow anti-German. Well, by that logic, combining them would be pro-German, and thus also biased. The four-entry solution (well, technically, five, because everyone keeps forgetting Saar in 1952) is the most logically sound. Anything else would certainly be OR, while our job is to be unbiased. There was, Olympically speaking, no "Germany" from 1956 to 1988. Even the Unified Team of Germany cannot properly be considered Germany, as this is a very similar situation to the Soviet Union and the Unified Team (EUN) of 1992, and EUN's results are not part of USSR's, nor any of its perceived successor states. Jmj713 (talk) 23:21, 4 November 2012 (UTC)

what does it have to do with geopolitical entities? it's the same NOC - period. the UK does not have the same geopolitical entities as the British Empire. the geopolitical entities of Poland and France are also not the same anymore. Germany is not the successor state of West Germany.--IIIraute (talk) 23:30, 4 November 2012 (UTC)

You're right, "Germany is not the successor state of West Germany", nor vice versa. Jmj713 (talk) 23:38, 4 November 2012 (UTC)

Yes, because it's the same country with the same NOC. I recommend we also split the UK and British Empire. --IIIraute (talk) 23:41, 4 November 2012 (UTC)

Great Britain's NOC has remained unchanged since 1896 (GBR), whereas the IOC uses four distinct codes for Germany: GER, FRG, GDR, and EUA (plus, of course, SAA). Jmj713 (talk) 23:49, 4 November 2012 (UTC)

..."but the UK does not have the same geopolitical entities as the British Empire" - your words. Germanys NOC has also remained unchanges since 1896 - only the codes have changed. --IIIraute (talk) 23:53, 4 November 2012 (UTC)

The codes are what's important for the Olympics. They're different teams, even if they're the same nation. Jmj713 (talk) 00:12, 5 November 2012 (UTC)

No, they are not. West Germanys and Germanys NOC has remained unchanges since 1896 - only the codes have changed. [24] --IIIraute (talk) 00:15, 5 November 2012 (UTC)

Then why does olympic.org have a gap in their medal listings for Germany that happens to coincide with both EUA and FRG/GDR? Jmj713 (talk) 00:18, 5 November 2012 (UTC)

...why does the official German NOC not have a gap in their history? [25]? You know why - because its the same NOC - only the codes changed. --IIIraute (talk) 00:25, 5 November 2012 (UTC)

The IOC is the highest and only authority on these matters. I'm sure Russian people in today's Russia claim USSR's medals belong to their nation. Same with the Czech Republic or Yugoslavia. But facts are facts, and they're stubborn. Jmj713 (talk) 00:27, 5 November 2012 (UTC)

Exactly, and the German DOSB (NOC) is part of the IOC. DOSB president Thomas Bach is the vice-president of the International Olympic Committee and member of the executive board of the International Olympic Committee. EUA, FRG and GER even had the same NOC President (Willi Daume, 1960–1993) -- same NOC - only the codes have changed - facts are facts, and they're stubborn. --IIIraute (talk) 00:37, 5 November 2012 (UTC)

Once again you're avoiding the fact these were different teams with different country codes and the IOC does not combine their records. I don't know how much clearer to explain this. It should be obvious. Jmj713 (talk) 02:31, 5 November 2012 (UTC)

Once again, the DOSB which is part of the IOC does. The IOC itself does not publish all-time tables. Other country codes did change: HOL to NED for the Netherlands or Ceylon to Sri Lanka. Why are they combined? You know why -- because they kept the same NOC. Quote: "When different codes are displayed for different years, medal counts are combined in the case of a simple change of IOC code... as the medals are attributed to each NOC." --IIIraute (talk) 02:36, 5 November 2012 (UTC)

You're talking about different things. Simple code changes due to name changes and such are not the same as geopolitical changes such as we're discussing here. You still haven't addressed the fact that the IOC does not list any medals for Germany during the time period of the existence of its alternate NOCs. Jmj713 (talk) 04:04, 5 November 2012 (UTC)

I already told you, NO alternate NOCs: EUA, FRG and GER have always had the same German National Olympic Committee (NOC) recognized in 1895, and even had the same NOC President (Willi Daume, 1960–1993) -- the same Olympic Committee located in Frankfurt - only the codes have changed. It was simply a name change. Germany is officially still called (FRG), the Federal Republic of Germany - it's the same country, with the same NOC since 1896 - only the GDR had a separate NOC, because it was a separate country (although not recognized by Germany). "West Germany", is nothing more than the common English name used for the Federal Republic of Germany or FRG. The "enlarged" Federal Republic of Germany (known simply as "Germany") is thus the continuation of the pre-1990 Federal Republic of Germany - the very same country, with the same NOC. --IIIraute (talk) 04:18, 5 November 2012 (UTC)

You should be a politician. You're simply avoiding answering my questions and addressing the points I'm raising. I won't engage you further, except this one last time. Go to http://www.olympic.org/germany - it's the official source for Olympic data and statistics. On the lower right side of the page it lists Olympic Medals for Germany. Open up the Summer and Winter drop-down menus. Find the Games when the IOC used EUA or FRG for "West Germany". End of discussion. Jmj713 (talk) 22:18, 5 November 2012 (UTC)

The IOC cannot be seen as the single authoritative source on this article, as the IOC itself does not publish all-time tables, and publishes only unofficial tables per single Games. Therefore this article is in violation with WP:No original research. The official source for the German National Olympic Committee (DOSB) does list the Olympic Medals for Germany from 1896 to 2012 → [26].

There were no official country codes before 1976: Only in 1976 did the IOC start to assign standardized codes. Before that time, the local Organizing Committees of each Olympic Games had chosen codes, often in the local language, resulting in a multitude of codes.

At the Games of 1956, 1960, and 1964 the German team was simply known as "Germany" and the usual country code of (GER) was used. Yet, the IOC code EUA is currently applied in hindsight in the IOC medal database, without further explanation given.

Please also note that there is a huge difference between Germany and the Soviet Union or Yugoslavia: the (FRG) Federal Republic of Germany did not cease to exist. It was a simple code change, same country, same NOC. NO alternate NOCs: EUA, FRG and GER have always had the same German National Olympic Committee (NOC) recognized in 1895, same NOC President (Willi Daume, 1960–1993), same Olympic Committee located in Frankfurt - only the codes have changed. Germany is officially still called (FRG), the Federal Republic of Germany - it's the same country, with the same NOC since the first modern Games held in 1896 - only the GDR had a separate NOC, because it was a separate country (although not recognized by Germany). "West Germany" did never exist, and is nothing more than the common English name used for the Federal Republic of Germany or FRG. The "enlarged" Federal Republic of Germany (known simply as "Germany") is thus the continuation of the pre-1990 Federal Republic of Germany - the very same country, with the same National Olympic Committee since 1895. That should answer all your questions. --IIIraute (talk) 22:42, 5 November 2012 (UTC)

As much as I can agree that the distinction is a bit fuzzy at times, IOC is the key authority on this. If they had included West Germany's medal totals in Germany's result listing today I would have supported your claim. The situation is quite similar to Yugoslavia/Serbia and Montenegro/Serbia though. Serbia and Montenegro claimed succession from Yugoslavia, and Serbia claimed succession from Serbia and Montenegro. The former Yugoslavian NOC stayed in Belgrade, but IOC still considers it a new entity. Montenegro leaving Serbia and East Germany leaving Germany are quite similar; in neither case is the "main" country (where the NOC stays in place) considered a successor of the older state. Until IOC starts combining the results I'll be against us doing it too. -- Lejman (talk) 01:41, 15 November 2012 (UTC)

You did not respond to my argument at all - please read it more carefully:

The IOC cannot be seen as the single authoritative source on this article, as the IOC itself does not publish all-time tables, and publishes only unofficial tables per single Games. Therefore this article is in violation with WP:No original research! The official source for the German National Olympic Committee (DOSB) does list the Olympic Medals for Germany from 1896 to 2012 → [27].

There were no official country codes before 1976: Only in 1976 did the IOC start to assign standardized codes. Before that time, the local Organizing Committees of each Olympic Games had chosen codes, often in the local language, resulting in a multitude of codes.

At the Games of 1956, 1960, and 1964 the German team was simply known as "Germany" and the usual country code of (GER) was used. Yet, the IOC code EUA is currently applied in hindsight in the IOC medal database, without further explanation given.

Yugoslavia does not exist anymore as a country - the FRG does. The (FRG) Federal Republic of Germany did not cease to exist. It was a simple code change, same country, same NOC. NO alternate NOCs: EUA, FRG and GER have always had the same German National Olympic Committee (NOC) recognized in 1895, same NOC President (Willi Daume, 1960–1993), same Olympic Committee located in Frankfurt - only the codes have changed. Germany is officially still called (FRG), the Federal Republic of Germany - it's the same country, with the same NOC since the first modern Games held in 1896 - only the GDR had a separate NOC, because it was a separate country (although not recognized by Germany). "West Germany" did never exist, and is nothing more than the common English name used for the Federal Republic of Germany or FRG. The "enlarged" Federal Republic of Germany (known simply as "Germany") is thus the continuation of the pre-1990 Federal Republic of Germany - the very same country, with the same National Olympic Committee since 1895.--IIIraute (talk) 02:21, 15 November 2012 (UTC)