Talk:Alex de Minaur

Double standard

Hi!! As far as I am concerned, Wikipedia rules are universal. Meaning it is not possible to follow a double standard for different articles. What is the double standard fallacy? "Judging two situations by different standards when, in fact, you should be using the same standard": https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFallacies/227/Double-Standard

If some tennis Wikipedia articles allow to put the double nationality of tennis players, all articles about tennis players should allow to put the double nationality. Either we delete the Garbiñe Muguruza allusion to her double Spanish-Venezuelan nationality or we include the double Australian-Spanish nationality of Alex de Minaur. We cannot have Garbiñe Muguruza as a Spanish-Venezuelan tennis player and Alex de Minaur as an Australian player, ignoring his Spanish naitonality. Wikipedia editors should not display a double standard in a serious encyclopedia.

Sorry if I look dogmatic, it is not my intention. This is not my personal imposition, but a general guideliness of Wikipedia editors. For instance, under consensus in talk: Rod Laver , Wikipedia editors agreed to avoid putting in the Federer/Nadal/Djokovic articles phrases like "he is one of the greatest of all time" in the lead sentence, to avoid the double standard of putting it in some articles but not in others.

So what do we do?

Option 1) We put "Muguruza is a Spanish tennis player" and "Alex de Minaur is an Australian tennis player".

Option 2) We put "Muguruza is a Spanish-Venezuelan tennis player" and "Alex de Minaur is an Australian-Spanish tennis player".

Please, if possible I would really appreciate if we can reach consensus and you choose one of the aforementioned options to avoid double standard. James343e (talk) 18:06, 30 October 2018 (UTC)

Wikipedia does not use a cookie cutter on articles, so each will be different. There was recently a big discussion about tennis player Naomi Osaka and hers is now written "is a professional tennis player who represents Japan in competition." I do see a big difference in Muguruza and de Minaur, because Muguruza was born in Venezuela and plays for Spain, while de Minaur was born in Australia and plays for Australia. Fyunck(click) (talk) 18:45, 30 October 2018 (UTC)

Hello @Fyunck(click):. I appreciate your educated and well-expressed comment. I will explain my personal position and I really hope to reach some kind of consensus. In my opinion, Muguruza and De Minaur are esentially the same and it is a double standard to threat them differently. Both Muguruza and De Minaur have one Spnaish parent. De Minaur has no Australian father, and was raised in Spain. That is, Muguruza has a Venezuelan father but De Minaur has no Australian father. In other words, while Muguruza has Venezuelan roots, De Minaur has no Australian roots. Both Muguruza and De Minaur have one Spanish parent, were raised in Spain and have two nationalities. What I mean is that I don't see any valid reason to put "Muguruza is a Spanish-Venezuelan tennis player" and then suddently "De Minaur is an Australian player", ignoring his Spanish nationality. As far as I am concerned the Osaka and De Minaur cases are very diffent, since Osaka has 3 nationalities (Japansese, Haitian and American) while De Minaur has 2 nationalities like Muguruza. So I would appreciate if we find a way to threat De Minaur and Muguruza equally. James343e (talk) 18:50, 30 October 2018 (UTC)

Sorry if I am too impatient. I think if a tennis player has 2 nationalities, both should be included as we see with Muguruza. Osaka has 3 nationalities, not 2 like De Minaur/Muguruza. Also, while Muguruza has Venezuelan father, De Minaur has no Australian father. De Minaur was raised in Spain and has a Spanish mother, there is no reason to delete his doble nationality. Anyhow, I will wait for your responses, it is important to achieve some kind of consensus. James343e (talk) 19:28, 30 October 2018 (UTC)

I guess everyone is entitled to an opinion, but I see it very differently than you. They are not essentially the same. If one parent is half Polish and half Greek, and the other is French, and the child was born in Mexico and raised in Canada, are you suggesting we call them a Mexican-Canadian-French-Greek-Polish tennis player? Usually the parents heritage has nothing to do with what we call a tennis player. If they are born in the USA and play for the USA it is normal here to call them a United States tennis player, no matter where the parents were born. It is when they are born someplace other than what country they represent as a professional that we have issues. De Minaur has represented Australia since the age of 12 or 13. Osaka is a Japanese tennis player or she is a tennis player who represents Japan. Parentage should be left to the personal section. If we did it your way I guess we'd have to say Pete Sampras is an American-Greek tennis player just because his mom is Greek and his father is half Greek. Well we don't, we say he's an American tennis player and that's it. We talk about Sampras' heritage in his early life section. The same should be done with de Minaur. Fyunck(click) (talk) 19:58, 30 October 2018 (UTC)

I am not talking about "heritage", Sampras has nothing to do with this topic since Sampras only has the American nationality. I am talking about nationality. Nationality is cultural, heritage is biological. I am talking about NATIONALITY. De Miñaur has both Spanish and Australian nationality. Sampras has no Greek natioanlmity Muguruza has both Spanish and Venezuelan NATIONALITY and she is said to be Spanish-Venezuelan. The same should be said about De Miñaur to avoid a double standard. De Miñaur has both Australian AND Spanish ancestry, so he is Australian-Spanish. Even his mother said it in the source I included. De Miñaur is Australian-Spanish. James343e (talk) 19:28, 14 December 2018 (UTC)

I assume it was a mistake when you said Sampras has no Greek ancestry, because he has tons of Greek ancestry. Sampras has no Greek nationality. De Minaur is an Australian professional tennis player. I don't even know if he has Spanish citizenship. His parents are Spanish and Uruguayan so why aren't you suggesting he is a Uruguayan-Spanish-Australian player? Fyunck(click) (talk) 02:15, 11 December 2018 (UTC)

Again, we are talking about NATIONALITY, not ancestry/heritage. Nationality is not a synonym with ancestry/heritage. Nationality is cultural, ancestry/heritage is biological. Sampras has no Greek nationality. Sampras only has the American nationality. I am suggesting to put De Miñaur is an Australian-Spanish tennis player because he has both the Australian and the Spanish nationality. De Miñaur has no Uruguayan nationality. Garbiñe Muguruza in her article is also said to be an Spanish-Venezuelan tennis player because she has both the Spanish and the Venezuelan nationality. Muguruza also plays for one nation (Spain), but her double nationality Spanish-Venezuelan is indicated. So to avoid a double standard, I think we should indicate that De Miñaur is an Australian-Spanish tennis player.

In my initial edition I had included two sources which prove De Miñaur's Spanish nationality. Esther Román, the mother of Álex De Miñaur, explicitly said that his son has Spanish nationality in an open letter for El Español:

"Mi hijo Álex de Miñaur Román tiene doble nacionalidad, australiana y española." (Translation: My son Álex de Miñaur has 2 nationalities: Australian and Spanish).

Source: https://www.elespanol.com/deportes/tenis/20180115/alex-merece-nadie/277602239_13.html

Another source (El Mundo), which indicates that he has the double Australian-Spanish nationality:

https://www.abc.es/deportes/tenis/abci-quien-alex-minaur-201807070313_noticia.html James343e (talk) 19:28, 11 December 2018 (UTC)

Wouldn't nationality mean that Alex de Minaur would have to have a Spanish citizenship. Are we all forgetting that he was born and raised in Australia till the age of 5. This would mean that he is definitely an Australian. But if the Spanish could protect de Minaur from other countries, then that would mean that he is a dual national. LoneWolf5498 (talk) 21:36, 14 January 2019 (UTC)

Didn't you read the sources I included? Even her mother Ester Román recognized that de Miñaur has both the Australian and the Spanish nationality. Esther Román, the mother of Álex De Miñaur, explicitly said that his son has Spanish nationality in an open letter for El Español:

"Mi hijo Álex de Miñaur Román tiene doble nacionalidad, australiana y española." (Translation: My son Álex de Miñaur has 2 nationalities: Australian and Spanish).

Source: https://www.elespanol.com/deportes/tenis/20180115/alex-merece-nadie/277602239_13.html

What do you mean by "citizenship"? No, de Miñaur doesn't need to be a current inhabitant/citizen of Spain to have Spanish nationality. He can live in Australia and still have the Spanish nationality. The famous female tennis player Garbiñe Muguruza has Venezuelan nationality, despite not being a current inhabitant/citizen of Venezuela. In fact, in Muguruza's article it is clearly stated that she is a Spanish-Venezuelan player. So here we should do the same and say that de Miñaur is an Australian-Spanish player. Otherwise, we would be following a double standard and employing a different guideline for different players rather than using the same guideline for all players. James343e (talk) 19:28, 18 January 2019 (UTC)

After reading the articles, I would have to agree with James on this. De Minaur was born in Australia, but was raised in Spain. Although de Minaur plays under the Australian flag and plays for the Australian Davis Cup team, there is no denying that Alex has a Spanish nationality, making him a dual-national with Australian and Spanish nationality. LoneWolf5498 (talk) 04:59, 26 January 2019 (UTC)

But he would also have Uruguayan heritage from his mother, as well as Spanish. I'm wondering if every time someone moves to a new location we would need to add that to their nationality? If he lives the next 10 years of his life in Australia (where he's lived now for 8 of his 19 years of life) would we then erase his Spanish and Uruguayan nationality? We could do like what is done with Naomi Osaka and say he is a professional tennis player who represents Australia, and leave the heritage to his personal section. Seems strange for a player born in Australia, who plays for Australia, and who says I've always felt Australian and it's all I want to do is play for Australia. But it can be done. Fyunck(click) (talk) 08:36, 26 January 2019 (UTC)

I am not sure why there was/is any controversy about this. Tennis.com has this to say: "Yet if De Minaur is a throwback as a player, he’s a young man of his globalized time, too. His father, Anibal, is Uruguayan, and his mother, Esther, is Spanish. Alex was born in Sydney, but he has shuttled back and forth between Australia and Spain throughout his life, and he has dual citizenship. He trains in Alicante, Spain, with his longtime coach, Adolfo Gutierrez, but he plays under the Australian flag"; see http://www.tennis.com/pro-game/2019/01/alex-de-minaur-2019-australian-open/78939/. I have edited the article to reflect this information. The lede now reads, "Alex de Minaur (born 17 February 1999) is an Australian tennis player with dual Australian and Spanish citizenship". SunCrow (talk) 23:48, 8 September 2019 (UTC)

Needs more sources

The article contains a good deal of unsourced material and has been tagged accordingly. SunCrow (talk) 23:49, 8 September 2019 (UTC)

Australian expat?

Can we say he's an expat in Spain (category), with Spanish citizenship? Mayumashu (talk) 03:17, 9 January 2020 (UTC)

"Cindy Dock" listed at Redirects for discussion

A discussion is taking place to address the redirect Cindy Dock. The discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2020 October 28#Cindy Dock until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. Nightfury 11:52, 28 October 2020 (UTC)