Talk:AC Milan in international football

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On 31 October 2023, it was proposed that this article be moved from AC Milan in European football to AC Milan in international football. The result of the discussion was moved.

Possible rename[edit]

The title is currently called A.C. Milan in European Football. Neither the Club World Cup nor the Intercontinental Cup are European. Maybe it should be renamed A.C. Milan in non domestic competition, A.C. Milan in non domestic football, A.C. Milan in global competition or A.C. Milan in global football. Mobile mundo (talk) 18:29, 28 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The articles for European clubs are all named this way because majority of the comps. are UEFA. Yes, there are a couple that are international like the Club World Cup and Intercontinental Cup, and those should really be put into a separate section like at Juventus F.C. in European football. Having all the games one by one like how it's done here with Milan, is what should be changed. Vaselineeeeeeee^★★★ 18:35, 28 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Renaming of this page to "A.C. Milan in international football"[edit]

Hi All, I would like to bring again this topic to the attention of this community. This page should be renamed as follows: "A.C. Milan in international football".

In fact, it contains also worldwide trophies like the Intercontinental cup and the Fifa Club's world cup.

Also, this would be in line with the similar pages of other main European clubs. See some examples: Juventus F.C. in international football; Real Madrid CF in international football; Liverpool F.C. in international football

Thank you in advance for your consideration. Giuliomil (talk) 22:15, 12 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 31 October 2023[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) estar8806 (talk) ★ 00:55, 17 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

AC Milan in European football → AC Milan in international football – As User:Giuliomil stated above, the page doesn't just contain European trophies, but also contains trophies contested with teams that are outside of Europe, like the Club World Cup or Intercontinental Cup. Nearly all other major teams have have the word 'international' rather than European. Some examples:

Examples from other continents:

Sgubaldo (talk) 19:04, 31 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Support. Thank you @Sgubaldo for picking this up. It goes without saying that I support this renaming, for the reasons that you stated very well, and in line with what I wrote earlier this year in the talk you can find above. Giuliomil (talk) 22:05, 31 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related page discussions. Giant Snowman 19:48, 1 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - this club, and the others, do not play in international competitions. That is reserved for countries. They play in 'continental' or similar. So, until a better word can be found, I oppose this move. Giant Snowman 19:52, 1 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@GiantSnowman I have two counterarguments to your opinion. The first is a semantic one, the second is a logic one.

1) The word "international" describes something happening "between nations". A "continental" competition, as you describe it, falls into the category of international competitions. The advantage of using the word "international" is that this word, unlike the words "European" or "continental", encompasses both continental competitions and intercontinental competitions, thus making "international" the better word to use in the context of a club that played both of those types of competitions throughout its history.

2) By following your logic, we should then revert all the other pages that are named "[club name] in international competitions", which I don't think it's wise, and anyway, that would not make sense because they are exactly those pages named "[club name] in European competitions" that should be changed, for the reason mentioned at point 1). Giuliomil (talk) 20:46, 1 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
If you Google 'international football, results will be matches and tournaments between nations, not clubs from different confederations. Giant Snowman 21:39, 1 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Hi @GiantSnowman, there is a difference between international football and international competitions. While the former usually refers to matches and tournaments between nations, the second can be both competitions between national teams and competitions between clubs of different nations.

Also, here is a definition directly taken from Wikipedia that highlights above point: International competitions in association football. I cite the text that you can also find at the link: International competitions in association football principally consist of two varieties: competitions involving representative national teams or those involving clubs based in multiple nations and national leagues. International football, without qualification, most often refers to the former. In the case of international club competition, it is the country of origin of the clubs involved, not the nationalities of their players, that renders the competition international in nature. Giuliomil (talk) 00:23, 5 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
WP:WIKIPEDIAISNOTARELIABLESOURCE. Giant Snowman 08:29, 5 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@GiantSnowman I know but it is just to prove my point even more, which i think is clear enough even without having to cite Wikipedia by the way.

What do you think of it (aside from the mentioning of that Wikipedia page)? Giuliomil (talk) 09:47, 5 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

All of the teams listed above have won their respective premier continental competition and have thus participated in competitions against teams from other confederations, which means their articles (including AC Milan's) shouldn't be titled 'xxx in European football' regardless of their current title because they've played beyond just Europe. On Wikipedia, competitions between confederations have been been referred to as international; see Club World Cup and its predecessor. I see your point about international football mostly referring to countries though, and I'm honestly not sure what the best course of action would be. Sgubaldo (talk) 22:39, 1 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I'm wondering if "[club name] in world competitions" makes sense for every page affected by the current title formatting as GiantSnowman points out about international competitions are participated by national football teams. Iggy (Swan) (Contribs) 10:54, 2 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Support I do agree that it makes logical sense to have this be changed to international football because restricting it to European football doesn't sound right especially if they competed in tournaments outside of Europe. HawkAussie (talk) 09:44, 2 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Support Although international football is generally associated with national associations rather than clubs, I'm struggling to think of an alternative that is accurate and concise. Stevie fae Scotland (talk) 20:30, 2 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Comment @Sgubaldo, Giuliomil, GiantSnowman, Iggy the Swan, HawkAussie, and Stevie fae Scotland: What about AC Milan versus international football clubs to reduce ambiguity? Including the word "clubs" seems to remove some of the potential national team confusion. If suitable additional RMs could be opened subsequently. Iggy (Swan)'s alternative of AC Milan in world competitions seems reasonable as well to retain "in" formatting vice "versus". However, keeping the title "European football" does suggest that any Intercontinental Cup or Club World Cup entries should be removed from the article. -2pou (talk) 20:19, 8 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I prefer 'in world competitions'. Giant Snowman 21:50, 8 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
- I am not a fan of 'versus international football clubs' so if the main option doesn't go through, then the world competitions is my vote. HawkAussie (talk) 09:14, 9 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Agree with HawkAussie, I would support AC Milan in world competitions as an alternative. Stevie fae Scotland (talk) 22:40, 9 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Support – Personally, I see no issue with the main proposal, but if "international football" is deemed to be too ambiguous, I'd suggest '"international club competitions" instead. Luxic (talk) 16:39, 11 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Support original proposal. — Amakuru (talk) 14:38, 14 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support as initially proposed. I don't have any issue with the proposed title and it is consistent with all other topics in the same situation. Jenks24 (talk) 10:26, 15 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.