Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Assessment/Brian Robertson, 1st Baron Robertson of Oakridge

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The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article promoted by Peacemaker67 (talk) via MilHistBot (talk) 09:30, 17 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Brian Robertson, 1st Baron Robertson of Oakridge[edit]

Nominator(s): Hawkeye7 (talk)

Brian Robertson, 1st Baron Robertson of Oakridge (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

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This is the second time I've nominated an article on a British general for A class, the first being Boy Browning. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 00:17, 30 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

  • Check the sort order of your references. Also, one by Playfair is missing a location; didn't I just say the same thing about the same book in a another review? Lingzhi ♦ (talk) 15:45, 31 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    Not one I was involved in. Added. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 19:57, 31 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Carter, J. A. H.; Kann, D. N. (1952);Carter, J. A. H.; Kann, D. N. (1961); Roskill, Captain S. W. (1960). Missing OCLC;
    Added. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 00:41, 6 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Playfair, Major-General I. S. O.; Flynn, Captain F. C.; Molony, Brigadier C. J. C.; Gleave, Group Captain T. P. (1960). Pub. too early for ISBN, perhaps needs |orig-year=; Missing OCLC; Lingzhi ♦ (talk) 23:36, 5 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    Switched to OCLC. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 00:41, 6 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Support: G'day, Hawkeye. Nice work, as usual. I only a couple of minor points from me: AustralianRupert (talk) 04:24, 10 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]

  • the red link for "Operations in Waziristan (1921–24)" prbably should be "Operations in Waziristan (1921–1924)" per WP:DATERANGE, although it can be piped in the infobox. (Incidentally, I'd be fascinated to see that article one day, as I did some (very poor) work on Waziristan campaign (1919–1920) and Waziristan campaign (1936–1939) a few years ago)
    There's some excellent images of the road at the British National Army Museum. [1] Unfortunately, AFAICT, they are still copyrighted because the author died in 1973. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 05:31, 10 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    Wow, those are fascinating! AustralianRupert (talk) 06:26, 10 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • I wonder if the above link should be worked into the body of the article, also
    Added Hawkeye7 (discuss) 05:31, 10 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • "he XI Corps sector of the Western Front was a quiet one at this time,[11] but Robertson was mentioned in despatches on 15 May 1917,[12] awarded the Order of the Crown of Romania with Swords on 21 June 1917,[13] and the Military Cross in the 1918 New Year Honours": do we know specifically what he did to receive the MC? Was it for a particular battle?
    No, he was awarded the medal in the 1918 New Years Honours. There are no citations for those. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 05:31, 10 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    No worries. AustralianRupert (talk) 06:26, 10 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Europe in September prompted..." --> "Europe in September 1939 prompted..."?
    checkY Corrected. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 05:31, 10 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • "he was too old at age 43..."--> "he was too old at the age of 43" or "he was too old at 43"
    checkY Changed to "too old". Hawkeye7 (discuss) 05:31, 10 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Robertson reported to Cunningham that "The distance...": you could probably silently just decaps the "t" here
    checkY Done. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 05:31, 10 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • OCLC for Carter, J. A. H.; Kann, D. N. (1961)?
    Doesn't have one. Too rare. I bought a copy of volume I back in the early noughties, and the question naturally arose as to whether I could acquire a copy of volume II, which covered campaigns I was particularly interested in. I found a copy in the War Memorial, which at least proved that it really existed, but was unable to locate one for sale. Eventually, I wrote a bot that trawled the web sites every Thursday. It ran for seven years before proudly emailing me that a copy had been located for sale in 2016. I snapped it up immediately of course. Muahahaha! Hawkeye7 (discuss) 05:31, 10 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    No worries, that's awesome! There's so much I don't know how to do with computers...:-( AustralianRupert (talk) 06:26, 10 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • captain (British Army and Royal Marines) is overlinked
    checkY Removed duplicate link. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 05:31, 10 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • as are Addis Ababa, brigadier, and Quartermaster General to the Forces
    checkY De-linked. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 05:31, 10 February 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    @WP:MILHIST coordinators: in an effort to try to move this review along, who one of you mind acting as the third reviewer for this ACR? Regards, AustralianRupert (talk) 07:31, 7 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

support comments by auntieruth[edit]

  • I don't understand the last sentence of the lead. Baron of Oakridge of Oakridge,....
    But it is correct. See the gazette. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:40, 9 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • this text: Kenya was threatened by Italy's declaration of war on Britain on 10 June 1940, as Kenya was a British colony, and Italy occupied neighbouring Ethiopia and Somalia. ....Italy's occupation of Ethiopia and Somalia posed a direct threat to neighboring Kenya after the declaration of war on 10 June 1940....?
    I don't see what the problem is. The point is that not everyone will know that Kenya was a British colony, or that Somalia and Ethiopia had been occupied by Italy since 1888 and 1935 respectively. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:40, 9 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • more later....auntieruth (talk) 15:42, 9 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • I feel ridiculously stupid about this, but I'm still stumbling around "as" (causality) and "as" (preposition, ie., role of). Kenya was threatened by Italy's declaration of war on Britain on 10 June 1940, as Kenya was a British colony, and Italy occupied neighbouring Ethiopia and Somalia. Kenya, a British colony, was threatened by.... because Italy occupied neighbouring Ethiopia and Somalia... ????
    I don't see the problem with the use of "as" as a conjunction meaning (according to the Wiktionary) "considering that" or "because". Changed to "because". Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:54, 19 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • there are a lot of uses of "as" for causality (they moved a lot because of his father's military postings), "as" meaning role (posted as a lieutenant), and "as" generally prepositional
    The first is not causality, but in its other meaning of "when". The word is also used in the article in its sense of a comparison ("as far") Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:54, 19 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Post-war Germany was in ruins, and the British Zone was more industrial than the other zone, containing the devastated Ruhr area... Needs a better causal link to the food shortages and need for American grain, etc. How about: Although large swathes of post-war Germany lay in ruins, the British Zone, which contained the devastated Ruhr industrial region, was particularly affected. Britain's near bankruptcy needs a better tie in to the resulting trade agreement with US, and eventual creation of Bizonia.
    I have re-worded the paragraph to address this. Let me know what you think. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:54, 19 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • This guy was amazing!! Let me know what you think.... Cheers, auntieruth (talk) 14:46, 19 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
just noticed that the second Carter volume doesn't have an oclc #. auntieruth (talk) 15:47, 2 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
G'day, Ruth, I'm pretty sure it doesn't have one, unfortunately. This issue came up in an earlier ACR, here: Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Assessment/British logistics in the Normandy Campaign. Regards, AustralianRupert (talk) 07:24, 7 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Hawkeye, apologies, I meant to get to this earlier but it fell off my radar. Support, with just a handful of nitpicks:

  • Maybe make more of who his father was? William Robertson is famous for his role as CIGS during the First World War and for being the only man to hold every rank in the army. I know this of only limited relevance but it feels like you're understating his credentials.
    Added a bit more. I presume he's really famous in the UK. I didn't want to get too bogged down on this, as he does have his own article. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 00:00, 8 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Maybe explain the distinction between Woolwich and Sandhurst, ie that Woolwich was for gunners and sappers?
    Yes, Sandhurst for infantry and cavalry, Woolwich for sappers and gunners. Added. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 00:00, 8 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • What did he do to earn his various decorations? The MC in particular is a significant award.
    Unfortunately, the MC was gazetted in 1918 New Years Honours list, so it is not even specified if it was for a particular act. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 00:00, 8 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • In response to appeals for assistance from Britain, the new Prime Minister, Jan Smuts Clarify whose prime minister Smuts is.
    Of South Africa. Added. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 00:00, 8 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

—HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 17:00, 7 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Parsecboy[edit]

What? He's not a mad scientist?

  • One dupe link (to Chief of the Imperial General Staff)
    Unlinked. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 23:44, 7 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Any idea why he was mentioned in despatches any of the three times during WWI?
    No. Some MiDs have graphic citations, others are silent. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 00:01, 8 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • The first para of the Between the wars section has several short, choppy sentences.
    Tried to smooth it out. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 23:44, 7 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • What does "DA&QMG" stand for?
    Deputy Adjutant and Quartermaster General. Added. We could use an article explaining the British Army's staff system of the 19th and 20th centuries. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 23:44, 7 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Fortunately for him, it changed direction." - "it" here is ambiguous.
    Disambiguated. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 23:44, 7 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • " the ports" - which ports? The reads like they've already been introduced.
    In Libya. Added. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 00:01, 8 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • Parsecboy this is looking pretty good for promotion, except for the outstanding image issue. Are you supporting here? Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 06:42, 31 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
      • No, the image issue is still a problem. Parsecboy (talk) 19:03, 31 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
        I don't know what more can be done. The image was scanned from an original photograph, and it should be in the public domain because it was created in 1934, and the copyright expired in 2014 unless it was published, and never was. No copy is held by the IWM or the NPG, or available anywhere online. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:54, 31 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
        • That's not an assumption we can make - it's the biggest problem with using historical images like this. That we don't know if a photo was published is not the same as definitive proof that the photo came from someone's personal collection and was never published. We can check with @Nikkimaria:, who knows more about copyright law than I do, but I don't know that she'll give you a different answer. Parsecboy (talk) 15:37, 1 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
          • The UK tag requires a record of steps taken to try to ascertain authorship, which isn't too onerous - the bigger issue is the need for a US tag. With the given information, I don't think either the unpublished or URAA tags would apply. Nikkimaria (talk) 22:27, 1 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
            • I guess we will have to use a copyrighted image then. I am thinking of this one. [2] Hawkeye7 (discuss) 23:42, 1 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
NFUR on that looks good to me. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 01:17, 2 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Parsecboy can you confirm if you are supporting now? Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 10:17, 15 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I think we're good to go on the images now. Parsecboy (talk) 00:12, 16 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Images

  • File:Gen Sir Brian H Robertson Major 1934.png - this is surely not licensed correctly
    Changed the license. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 23:44, 7 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    I know I've seen Nikki ask people to document what efforts they've made to identify the author when they use that anonymous license template in the past. Parsecboy (talk) 14:10, 8 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    Best to ask User:TheGronkster, who uploaded the image. We know it is a scan of an original photograph. We know that the photograph was taken between 1930 and 1935, as Robertson is a major. It looks like it was taken in a professional studio. A Google image search unusually only picks up only Wikipedia and its mirrors. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:03, 8 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    Hmm, we might not have the best luck with that - it seems he's only made about a dozen edits between here and Commons, all in August 2017. I take it it's not present in any of the books you used in the article? Parsecboy (talk) 14:17, 11 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    The image is not present in any of the books used in the article. I'm fairly sure Williamson would have used it if he could have found it. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 06:13, 16 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • The rest check out.

Parsecboy (talk) 17:13, 7 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Nick-D[edit]

Interesting choice of article here!

It came from British logistics in the Normandy Campaign. My sources talked a lot about people in their positions, but did not name them. So I decided to do so, and in tracking them down generated enough material to create short articles on Miles Graham and Gerry Feilden. The sources on Graham frequently referenced Robertson, and I found a biography on my shelf. So I expanded this article too.

I have the following comments:

  • Do we know for what reason Robertson received so many awards in 1917 and early 1918? Is the article's commentary that the corps front was quiet a hint that they may have had more to do with who his father was than Robertson's efforts? (the Romanian medal seems rather odd!)
    Unfortunately, the military cross citation has not survived, and even a quiet sector on the Western Front could be very dangerous. Foreign awards from minor Allied powers were generally used as an additional form of honours, and many soldiers received them. The May 1917 mention in despatches was for drawing up march tables for artillery batteries so they could be constantly on the move in order to deceive the Germans. (Williamson, p. 14) Hawkeye7 (discuss) 03:16, 11 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • More broadly, the huge number of awards he received during the war as a junior staff officer seems surprising. Do any authors discuss his performance? (given his later career, he was presumably pretty good, even leaving aside his father's role)
    Was it? It is sort of hard for me to tell, as I'm always writing up the best and brightest. I am reminded of the first class at Camberley Staff College after the war; the entire class had earned the DSO, many had the MC as well, and several had the VC. Where his career deviates from the usual path is his being appointed ADC to Haking, and for that we know that his father pulled some strings. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 03:16, 11 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    They seem like a lot, but my main point of reference is John Treloar (museum administrator) who seems to have been more of a clerk than a high performing staff officer. Nick-D (talk) 05:06, 11 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Do we know why it took almost two years to build a gravel road in India? Presumably it was over very rugged terrain.
    Added: "The road traversed some of the most remote, rugged and inhospitable terrain in India." Hawkeye7 (discuss) 03:16, 11 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The outbreak of the Second World War in Europe in September 1939 prompted Hertzog to resign rather than support the war, but Robertson did," - the phrasing here is a bit unclear. I'd suggest splitting this into two sentences.
    Done. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 03:16, 11 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'd suggest replacing "dumping programme" with a less technical term (as readers might think it refers to disposing of supplies, not stockpiling them)
    Done. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 03:16, 11 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • " Robertson also had to deal with General Dwight Eisenhower's Allied Forces Headquarters, (AFHQ), where Major General Humfrey Gale was the Chief Administrative Officer, and with GHQ Middle East, although it was not under AFHQ, because most of the Eighth Army's support still derived from there." - this sentence is a bit over-complicated
    Split the sentence. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 03:16, 11 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Do we know what Fortbase and FLAMBO were abbreviations for?
    FLAMBO apparently stands for AFHQ Advanced Administrative Echelon but I don't see how that was derived. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 03:16, 11 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    ...no. The place where I work once had a committee where no-one at all knew what it's name meant, so perhaps the same happened here. Nick-D (talk) 05:06, 11 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Do we know whether Robertson's family joined him in Germany and the Middle East after the war, or where they still in South Africa?
    They arrived in Berlin on 11 August 1946. Added this. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 03:16, 11 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Do we know why Robertston advocated for the Berlin airlift? Was this due to him being confident, as a logistician, that it was feasible, or concerns about the unwisdom of trying to push a road convoy through (or both?)
    No, as a logistician, Robertson believed that it was not feasible. However, he believed that it would buy time for a negotiated solution. Added a bit. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 03:16, 11 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • "the Anglo-Egyptian treaty of 1936 was due to expire in 1956, and British troops would then have to leave Egypt. This, they were reluctant to do." - I'd suggest tweaking this to clarify that it was the British government which was unwilling to depart Egypt. Given the poor morale in the British Army at this time, I suspect that many of the troops would have liked to have gone home.
    I would have preferred Egypt myself. The weather is nicer and the food is better, and not rationed. Expanded this a bit. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 03:16, 11 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Nick-D (talk) 00:23, 11 June 2018 (UTC) Support My comments are now addressed - great work here. Nick-D (talk) 05:06, 11 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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