Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Assessment/12th Light Horse Regiment (Australia)

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The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article promoted by TomStar81 (talk) via MilHistBot (talk) 01:06, 6 September 2015 (UTC) « Return to A-Class review list[reply]

12th Light Horse Regiment (Australia)[edit]

Nominator(s): AustralianRupert (talk)

12th Light Horse Regiment (Australia) (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

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The image of the Australian light horseman is probably one of the most iconic representations of Australia's involvement in the First World War. This article is about one of about fifteen or so regiments raised as part of the Australian Imperial Force during the war. It saw service at Gallipoli, where it was used mainly to provide reinforcements, and then later fought during the Sinai and Palestine campaign. Disbanded after the conclusion of hostilities, it was re-raised as a part-time unit in the Citizens Forces. It remained a horsed regiment throughout the inter-war years but during World War II was converted into a motor regiment and then later an armoured car unit, being used in a garrison role only. It is currently perpetuated by the 12th/16th Hunter River Lancers. The article underwent a GA nomination several years back and has been tweaked a bit since then. Thank you to all who take the time to review and offer comments. Cheers, AustralianRupert (talk) 02:37, 15 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

  • File:12thALHRbadge.jpg: should fill in those "n.a." parameters. Also, what is the original date for this badge design?
    • Not sure, unfortunately, but it would have been between 1927 (when the motto was adopted) and 1943 (when the regiment was disbanded). I've added this to the documentation page and added some more info to the missing fields. Please let me know if you think it needs more work. Thank you. AustralianRupert (talk) 03:04, 15 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • File:12th_Light_Horse_Regiment_UCP.PNG: would suggest using {{PD-ineligible}} for this given its simplicity. Nikkimaria (talk) 02:45, 15 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Good point, went with "PD-Shape" (a derivative of PD-ineligible) which seems to render a slightly more specific ineligibility clause. Regards, AustralianRupert (talk) 03:04, 15 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • CommentsSupport
    • No dab links (no action req'd).
    • No issues with external links (no action req'd).
    • No duplicate links (no action req'd).
    • Images all have alt text except for the badge so you might consider adding it for consistency (suggestion only - not an ACR req).
    • The citation check tool reveals no issues with ref consolidation (no action req'd).
    • Image review completed above (no action req'd that I can see).
    • Captions look fine (no action req'd).
    • The lead is a little short, maybe expand to two?
    • "Although other units, such as part of the 4th and all of the 13th Light Horse Regiment, were sent to Europe to fight on the Western Front,[9] the 12th were to remain in the Middle East...", perhaps clarify that that bulk of the Light Horse remained in the Middle East? They way I read this it almost sounds like the 12th was the odd one out in not going to Europe, which of cse it wasn't.
    • "...while some men from the regiment were also detached to join Dunsterforce...", where?
    • Are there some words missing here: "Over 700 Ottoman soldiers captured and, more significantly for the Australians, over 400,000 litres of water secured."? It seems a bit rigid.
    • "In March, the 4th Light Horse Brigade, commanded by William Grant..." rank for Grant here (if available in the sources)?
    • "...further advance towards the railway junction at Deraa...", wikilink Deraa
    • There is possibly an inconsistency here: "..." the Germans manning the station killed them..." (them suggesting multiple killed), followed by "In the battle, the regiment lost one man killed and 10 wounded..." Is there an issue here, or were these men from a different unit. If it is an inconsistency in the sources perhaps reword to "the Germans manning the station shot them..." or something similar.
      • There were several killed from both the 11th and 12th LHRs. I've tried to make this clearer. AustralianRupert (talk) 12:39, 15 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Add isbn for Hogan (ADB entry) and oclc for Stanley (also mention that it was part of the proceedings of the 2001 Chief of Army's History Conference etc). See WorldCat.org entry for the details. Anotherclown (talk) 09:57, 15 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
      • Done. AustralianRupert (talk) 12:39, 15 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
        • Thanks for the review, I think I've got all of these. AustralianRupert (talk) 12:39, 15 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
          • Those changes have addressed all my points, I made a few tweaks at the end to the lead [1]. Pls review and change any you don't agree with. In particular I though it was redundant to say "12 LHR was a LHR" so changed it to "12 LHR was a mounted infantry regiment". Do you think that is workable? Anotherclown (talk) 20:56, 15 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support
  • First of all, and I know you hear this every Anzac day, but light horse were not mounted infantry. Mounted infantry were infantry that rode to the battle on horseback, dismounted and fought as infantry. From the Australian Light Horse article, which gets it right:

Light horse were like mounted infantry in that they usually fought dismounted, using their horses as transport to the battlefield and as a means of swift disengagement when retreating or retiring... However, unlike mounted infantry, the light horse also performed certain cavalry roles, such as scouting and screening, while mounted.

Contrary to your article, the light horse were trained for some cavalry actions, but they were just not intended to fight as cavalry on the battlefield
Mounted infantry were organised as infantry, in platoons and companies, but light horse were organised along cavalry lines, in troops, squadrons and regiments. Note how much smaller light horse regiments were than infantry battalions
G'day, I've had a go at addressing this. Would you mind taking a look and seeing it needs further adjustment? AustralianRupert (talk) 06:09, 16 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think the lead should mention the the 12th Light Horse was raised in New South Wales.
  • Galloping Jack Royston could be red linked, as he was a general, but it's up to you
  • Red linked. Agreed, definitely could have an article written on him. Might have a go at it myself sometime if someone doesn't beat me to it. Regards, AustralianRupert (talk) 06:09, 16 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • The 12th Light Horse was reformed because it was intended to become the mounted regiment of the newly-formed 5th Division; but the TO was changed so each division had only one squadron.
  • G'day, thanks for this, I haven't been able to find a ref for this yet. Do you have one at hand? AustralianRupert (talk) 06:09, 16 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Nothing in Gullet while Bou 2010 Light Horse: Au History of Australia's Mounted Arm pp. 150-151 skirts around the issue and provides some context to the period but doesn't mention this specifically. There is something in here [2] on p. 67 which is pretty close though. Anotherclown (talk) 07:22, 16 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Added something, but it is kind of like citing your boss' work back at them...I feel *inadequate* and worry that I might have misunderstood. Hawkeye, would you mind taking a look? Cheers, AustralianRupert (talk) 08:16, 16 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • They were later put down, according to Hollis, because of "cost constraints and quarantine restrictions" and concerns they might be mistreated if left behind. No, that is not correct. The horses were sold to the British Indian Army; many went on to other wars in India. Only horses in too poor a condition to be sold were put down.

Hawkeye7 (talk) 01:52, 16 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

  • I added something from Perry on this and tried to merge the two views. Could you please take a look and let me know what you think? AustralianRupert (talk) 06:09, 16 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I guess the emphasis on MI in the lead was really due to my edit [3], as describing the 12th Light Horse Regiment "as a light horse regiment" seemed a little redundant to me that's all. Certainly they did fill a number of roles somewhere b/n mounted infantry and cavalry (which I wouldn't think would be a correct description either) so I wonder how we describe them to the reader in two words if mounted infantry is not correct (I'd note Kuring at least calls them exactly that and I'd imagine so do quite a few other sources). Anyway happy to self-revert if I've buggered it up. Anotherclown (talk) 02:26, 16 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
G'day, I just went with a generic "...was a regiment of the Australian Army". It might be a bit dry, but maybe less confusing. Thoughts? AustralianRupert (talk) 06:09, 16 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I wonder about describing them as a "mounted unit", its seem to be a bit more descriptive of what they were rather than just saying a "regiment was a regiment". Anotherclown (talk) 06:14, 16 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Tweaked to mounted unit. @Hawkeye7:, does this work for you? Regards, AustralianRupert (talk) 08:16, 16 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Sure. Moved to support. Hawkeye7 (talk) 03:44, 22 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Comments. As always, feel free to revert my copyediting. - Dank (push to talk)

  • "a number of": If this is headed to FAC, you might get feedback there that this expression is ambiguous.
    • Changed to specify the numbers that arrived (54 men and about 350 horses). AustralianRupert (talk) 22:53, 5 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Citizens Forces was": sounds a little off.
  • Support on prose per standard disclaimer. These are my edits. - Dank (push to talk) 20:03, 5 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • G'day, Dan, thank you for your edits and advice. Have a great weekend. Cheers, AustralianRupert (talk) 22:53, 5 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
      • You too. Thanks to you and AC for keeping the home fires burning at A-class. - Dank (push to talk) 23:13, 5 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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