Wikipedia:Village pump (miscellaneous)

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The miscellaneous section of the village pump is used to post messages that do not fit into any other category. Please post on the policy, technical, or proposals sections when appropriate, or at the help desk for assistance. For general knowledge questions, please use the reference desk.

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Will the Met Office logo ever have its copyright expire?

• File:Met Office.svg

The Met Office logo is currently protected by Crown copyright in the United Kingdom, but may not be copyrightable in the United States because it does not meet original standards. The version currently uploaded locally on English Wikipedia is the 2009 version. There may be differences in color matching between this version and the 1987 version. Therefore, the copyright protection period of logos uploaded in different periods will also be recalculated. -Fumikas Sagisavas (talk) 04:09, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

If you don't get an answer here, you might want to try asking at commons:Commons:Village pump/Copyright. —⁠andrybak (talk) 12:53, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

@Fumikas Sagisavas, On English Wikipedia, there is also Wikipedia:Media copyright questions. —⁠andrybak (talk) 14:44, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

Concerns about Internet Archive

As I have talked about both in Wikimedia Forum and in the Internet Archive's one, Archive's Wayback Machine, being a very important resource for Wikipedia (it's where many article references come from, and where all references will always be forwarded if the original source some day disappears), can't be taken for granted, because almost all its content is hosted only in an area with great natural risks. It strikes me (negatively) that no one has replied to my post on Archive's forums. Perhaps people are more concerned with day-to-day issues, and dismiss this as long-term paranoia, but I think this is currently the most important issue regarding human knowledge's future. If Archive is eventually lost, Wikipedia and its sister projects, will be even more important than they are now, as the memory of the start of 21st century (and of other previous times), but it would be really sad to lose so much content as Archive has. If there's anyone here that shares my concern, he/she could, if has an Archive account (or wants to create one), and wanted to do it, talk about it in the thread that I opened at Archive's forum. I think that this is a very important issue, for everyone, as persons, but especially as wikipedians/wikimedians. MGeog2022 (talk) 11:36, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

I don't think this is as big of a problem as you think it is. According to the presentation by Jonah Edwards all of their data is in in the Bay Area in at least 4 different data centers (San Francisco, Oakland, Richmond, etc) and data is replicated across multiple data centers. In your post you mentioned the 3-2-1 backup rule, but that rule of thumb doesn't require the data to be replicated to different states or countries. Aside from an event like that from The Day After Tomorrow it is extremely unlikely that anything could cause the data to be lost in all these locations simultaneously. The only real risk is that a power outage can (and has) taken the archive offline. On that risk, I am perhaps less concerned than others as I don't believe an archive needs to have strict availability requirements - libraries and other physical archives close for the night without any problems. Mokadoshi (talk) 17:07, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

@Mokadoshi, thanks for your reply. Power outages aren't a big problem, I wasn't thinking about that (the archive ceases to be online for a time, but the important thing is that no data is lost).

you mentioned the 3-2-1 backup rule: as far as I know (unless I'm missing something), they don't store 3 copies of (perhaps an important) part of their data, so 3-2-1 can't be met then. They have 4 datacenters, but not all data is stored in all of them.

it is extremely unlikely that anything could cause the data to be lost in all these locations simultaneously: I hope so. I do know that 3-2-1 rule doesn't require different states or countries, but I fear that all copies are in an area that can (and will) be hit by a huge earthquake. Perhaps I am overestimating the consequences of such an earthquake, and none will ever cause huge damages both in Oakland and San Francisco at the same time, for example. MGeog2022 (talk) 20:13, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

Why do people like… live in California? Seems like a death trap. Dronebogus (talk) 14:45, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

I agree wholeheartedly with your concern but not because of natural disaster risk. The bigger risk at the moment is litigation over the former National Emergency Library service. The outcome remains uncertain - it could be a manageable out-of-court settlement with the four companies driving the current lawsuit, or it could be the start of a wave of lawsuits by other copyright owners (and there are a lot of them). There is a possibility that this will pose an existential threat to the Internet Archive, either by bankrupting it, or by forcing judgements that narrow the scope of fair use so as to render their "free access" mission impossible to deliver legally.

Personally I think the IA have acted recklessly, not just over the NEL, but in taking a cavalier attitude towards ingestion and distribution of non-free content. They have allowed members of the public to upload material with very little oversight. They host copies of material which is not significantly at risk of being lost (legal deposit libraries are doing fine). Some of their preservation activity is good and valuable (maintaining copies of niche works that are genuinely at risk), but they are playing with fire by redistributing copies of everything. This all serves to distract from, and endanger, what should be their primary mission: archiving websites. This is the area where nobody else (including the deposit libraries) is stepping up. The Wayback Machine is the unique copy of historical websites. We are used to web sources disappearing; we are unprepared for the Wayback Machine to disappear.

Since Wikipedia relies so heavily on IA-archived copies of website sources, we should have a strong interest in addressing this single point of failure. I have some ideas, but unfortunately the WMF seems to be strongly averse to hosting non-free content[1]. Barnards.tar.gz (talk) 22:08, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

I agree, though I think that the Internet Archive's primary purpose is to archive everything that's getting outdated and rare; the wayback machine is only one part of this.
Personally, I also feel like archive.today is a superior service for everyone not using cloudflare as their DNS. Aaron Liu (talk) 14:51, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

archive.today is weird and opaque. It’s a very effective paywall-buster, but I don’t have a lot of confidence in its long-term survival. Barnards.tar.gz (talk) 17:12, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

Abuse of autoblocking

If a user who is blocked takes advantage of autoblocking being enabled for their block to stop other, innocent users from editing by attempting to edit from random IP addresses, what will the administration do about it? By modifying the block to disable autoblocking, this allows the blocked user to evade the block, so will they send a request to a steward on Meta to lock the account to prevent further collateral damage because the account can no longer be logged into if all else fails? Faster than Thunder (talk | contributions) 21:51, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

Has this ever been a problem before? Or are you just telling people how to stuff beans up their noses? * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 21:52, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

If a user is being deliberately disruptive in this way, their account could be locked. — xaosflux ^Talk 22:11, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

KOSA act blackout?

The "Kids Online Safety Act" (KOSA) is a bill introduced in the US Senate by Senators Richard Blumenthal (D‑CT) and Marsha Blackburn (R‑TN) in February 2022 and reintroduced in May 2023; the bill establishes guidelines meant to protect minors on covered platforms. Per Section 3.b of the proposed act, a "covered platform" (defined as "a commercial software application or electronic service that connects to the internet and that is used, or is reasonably likely to be used, by a minor.") has the duty to block a minor's access to content that is deemed harmful to them.

This puts **every** Wikimedia project in danger of being censored by the U.S. government, because not only does it count as a “covered platform” (it is used by students under 16 for study and references), but it may either force the Wikimedia Foundation to ask users to provide personal information about themselves (particularly their age) when creating a new account, or remove encyclopaedic articles under the guise of “ensuring minor safety”. If passed, the KOSA act will put information on Wikimedia projects under scrutiny by the US government, and virtually eliminate the neutrality that has been part of them for years.

Not only does the act create an excuse for information censorship (about things that the US government doesn’t favour), but also the risk of a data leak. If someone has access to the age of every single Wikimedia user, then there’d be a very real possibility that they would be leaked to the public, including those of younger editors.

Therefore, an anti-KOSA blackout should be done to stop the act from being passed (like the last time we did with SOPA and PIPA; all three bills are somewhat related to censorship).

The responsibility of protecting a minor’s information online should be done by, and taught to, the minor’s parent, and not by the government.

tynjee 13:18, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

Well, obviously I oppose censorship, but is the legislation actually in any danger of being passed? Crazy ideas are proposed in parliaments across the world, and although U.S. politics is weirder than most, is there a reasonable chance of that legislature passing such a bill? I mean, is this an actual worry? Cremastra (talk) 13:36, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

@Cremastra i guess it is a worry; this act was introduced way back in 2022 and has 68 cosponsors at the time of writing (see https://www.congress.gov/bill/118th-congress/senate-bill/1409/cosponsors). sure kid safety on the internet is obviously a concern, but i don't see the point in putting an "age" option when creating a new wikipedia account tynjee 14:02, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

Oh, God, no, we don't want an age option, that would privacy invasion and just silly. To be clear, I think this bill has potential for abuse/censorship, although it means well, I'm just assessing whether we really need to be worried here or not. Cremastra (talk) 15:06, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

The definition in the bill of a "covered platform" excludes "an organization not organized to carry on business for its own profit or that of its members" (section 2(3)(B)(ii)). Phil Bridger (talk) 14:02, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

How should we parse that quote? If it's "a commercial (software application or electronic service)" then non-profits should be exempt. If it's "a (commercial software application) or electronic service" then we might not, as we clearly offer an electronic service. Disclaimer: I am neither a lawyer nor an American. Certes (talk) 14:11, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

That comment seems to relate to the OP's quote rather than to mine. The quote I provided is pretty clear that non-profits are not covered by the bill. Phil Bridger (talk) 14:18, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

(edit conflict) If you read things in context it's clear enough. The part you quote is part of the general definition in 2(3)(A), while Phil Bridger's quote is part of a list of specific exclusions from 2(3)(A). Anomie⚔ 14:25, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

So just to make this crystal clear: are non-profits excluded? Dronebogus (talk) 14:43, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

According to one of the sponsors, Blumenthal, non-profits are excluded from KOSA. [2]

Does the Kids Online Safety Act cover platforms run by non-profit organizations?
No, websites run by non-profits organizations – which often host important and valuable educational and support services – are not covered by the scope of the legislation.

Masem (t) 15:22, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

It sounds like Wikipedia and sites like it were explicitly considered and written around. In other words, this has virtually no effect on us. Dronebogus (talk) 04:07, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

The foundation pays lawyers. Have they said anything anywhere about this bill and how it may or may not affect this project? ElKevbo (talk) 15:11, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

I said the same thing at meta. I looked at the foundation website and blog and the answer is seemingly “no”. Dronebogus (talk) 04:06, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

I recall that there were at least some statements made on the matter. This CNBC article from 2022 says: The American Civil Liberties Union, Center for Democracy & Technology, Electronic Frontier Foundation, Fight for the Future, GLAAD and Wikimedia Foundation were among the more than 90 groups that wrote to Senate Majority Leader Chuck Schumer, D-N.Y., Senate Commerce Committee Chair Maria Cantwell, D-Wash., and Ranking Member Roger Wicker, R-Miss., opposing the Kids Online Safety Act.

When I started typing this comment, I would have bet $5 that we'd written about KOSA in the Signpost at some point in the last couple years (and an additional $2 that I was the one who'd written about it), but a search gives me absolutely nothing. It may be that it's hard to distinguish between the Kids Online Safety Act (US) from the Online Safety Act (UK) and the Digital Services Act (EU), even by epicly bigbrained policy wonks and/or journalists. jp×g🗯️ 23:45, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

Not that anyone was holding their breath on this, but I did find a page of notes from August '23 where I was going to try to mention KOSA in a special report, although I seem to never have actually done so. jp×g🗯️ 05:15, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

Is it that time of the year where we discuss a blackout? It was disruptive advocacy in 2012, and it would be disruptive advocacy now. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 17:21, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

It was based, actually. jp×g🗯️ 23:36, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

The SOPA blackout was definitely supported by the community because it 100% threatened the fundamental ability of Wikipedia to operate. (see [3]) This bill, as it appears to be in its language, immediately exempts non-profit organizations and websites they maintain from it, so there is no existential threat to WP. So it would be disruptive advocacy to push for any type of project-level notice. Of course, it still would be best to have WMF Legal to review and make sure we're clear on this. Masem (t) 03:48, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

The UK Online Safety Act 2023 provoked similar recent debate, leading to direct statements from WMF and non-compliance. I would expect more activity than this from WMF if they thought US legislation would have similar impact, and substantially more activity before it becomes an en.wiki issue (the WMF having a broader set of interests than en.wiki). CMD (talk) 05:47, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

I think the drafters of the bill were quite possibly looking at the arguable failure of OSA ‘23 when writing it, and specifically wanted to avoid accidentally kneecapping one of the biggest educational websites on the planet. Dronebogus (talk) 14:00, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

Besides the quote from the sponsor, we can always read the bill text.

“ (B) EXCEPTIONS.—The term “covered platform” does not include— [...]
(ii) an organization not organized to carry on business for its own profit or that of its members; ”

Aaron Liu (talk) 00:07, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Community Wishlist Survey: Template Picker Project

We want editors to find and use templates easily. As such, we have selected two wishes which we are implementing together:

• Wish #1: Quickly add infobox – an easier way for newer editors to find and insert common templates such as infoboxes.

• Wish #2: Quickly add favorite and related templates – a way to show recently used templates and favorited templates for frequent template users.

These wishes ranked 5th and 11th in the Community Wishlist Survey 2023 respectively.

Please read more about the template picker improvements project, and leave any early feedback on the talkpage.

On behalf of Community Tech, –– STei (WMF) (talk) 21:20, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

Need help with creating a consensus

About 2 months ago, I made an RFC at Talk:Somalia#Somalia showed as controlling Somaliland. After a slow RFC after which the opinion remained split, nothing happened. Owing to a recent edit war regarding the image, I am posting this here for further input so this issue can be put to bed.

This has been posted on different projects as of yet but it's still equally split. Fantastic Mr. Fox (talk) 20:51, 26 April 2024 (UTC)