Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Miscellaneous/2008 August 13

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August 13

Scared, frightened, confused, and unsure what is suppose to happen next

I got word today that my mom plans to divorce my dad. My parents are in there fifty's and the news caught me completely off guard becuase they had until today been happily married for just shy of thirty years. I suspect that this abrupt shift may have come about as a result of my mother's MS, which was diagnosed a few years back. I'm the oldest son from the marriage (22 years old) and would rather not see this marriage end, so I intend to fight it to the best of my abilities (which I reliase may be hard since the divorce will be between mom and dad, not me and mom or me and dad). Is there anything I can do/say that may encourage one or both parties to stay togather? Has anyone else gone through this? Can some one tell me what to expect from all this? Any help - anything at all - would be apreciated. 75.56.179.62 (talk) 01:19, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

The Wikipedia Reference Desk isn't really suited to giving advice on things like this. There are probably helplines you can ring for advice - what country are you in? The advice I would give is not to try and fight it, that won't work. You need to try and help your parents make the right decision. It may turn out the right decision is to divorce - it may be better than staying in an unhappy marriage. Things happen and people change, even after 30 years, sometimes there isn't anything anyone can do. Your best bet is to talk to them and try and get them to talk to eachother. Get them to discuss what's wrong and consider all the options. Try to avoid taking sides - if they do end up getting divorced, you don't want to end up estranged from one of them. You mention you're the eldest son, which suggests you have siblings - you may be able to support eachother through this difficult time, remember they're going through exactly the same thing as you. Good luck! --Tango (talk) 01:51, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

As Tango says, this isn't the kind of thing the Ref Desk is at its best, but as someone whose parents got divorced, married other people, and got divorced again let me put in my two cents.

A lot of relationships end. You really need to just bite the bullet and accept it -- it sucks, but it's not the end of the world. If your parents want to get a divorce, chances are it's not a whim, but something they've thought about for a good while now. Frankly, they're probably not having a good time with it either, and the last thing they need is you going nuts over this. I think you should take a deep breath and try to look at it like this: it doesn't change anything really important between you and your parents. It doesn't make them love you any less or make you love them any less. It doesn't mean they can't get along in the future (and one factor affecting that is probably going to be how easy or difficult you make it for them), even if they don't share the same address. It doesn't mean that the years they spent together were a lie or devoid of meaning, and it doesn't invalidate any of your happy memories. The success or significance of a relationship isn't determined solely by how or when it ends. (Honestly, I think it's kinda depressing that what is traditionally considered to be a successful relationship ends in someone's death.) If they don't want to be married anymore, even if you could force them to stay together, it wouldn't make them happy. It might preserve a comfortable illusion for you, but, y'know. They're your parents, but they're also human beings with wants and needs and the right to make the decisions they need to make to be happy.

So, what can you do? You can certainly suggest counceling and try to find out what's wrong and see if you can help them out, but the first basic requirement of that is that you're capable of putting your own panic aside and deal with the issue with some degree of objectivity -- and that means accepting, right from the start, that they may have a good reason for doing this. Also, it may simply be none of your business. I mean, it affects you, absolutely, but they're the ones in the marriage. It's a cliché, but all you can do is love 'em and support 'em. There's no reason a divorce should ruin your family, even if it changes it. -- Captain Disdain (talk) 08:40, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I'm sorry you've had such a horrible shock. News like this knocks the bottom out of everything we thought we knew about the way the world works, whether we're five years old or fifty, so it's not surprising you're upset and confused. But two things you say are very revealing and you may need to think about them further. Your parents have been "happily married" for nearly thirty years - you may find this is not as clear-cut as you think, hence the current situation. As a parent, I am aware that my children think they know a great deal about my husband's and my relationship, and I also know exactly how much they haven't the first clue about, and probably never will. And whilst you personally would "rather not see the marriage end" and intend to "fight" the divorce, this isn't your relationship - it's theirs; and you can't force them to be happy together just because it makes you feel better. I'm guessing from your language you're in the USA, so I'm not sure what relationship counselling services are available to your parents, or to you and your siblings, but all I can suggest from my own experience with two messy family divorces is the following:

(1) Keep talking and don't take sides. Make sure your parents both know that they will not lose you because of this. If you are frightened by the prospect of such a major change after all these years, think how they must feel! (2) Try to help your family reach a new stable situation as soon as possible, be it together or apart. The longer the uncertainty and instability last, the more frightened and unhappy everyone will be, and the more chance there is of conflict. 3) Remember that this is not the end of the world. Things will probably be different at the other end of this, but they can still be stable and even happy in a new way, if everyone does their best to help make them so. Your family may be changed by this, but it does not have to be broken.

Best wishes to you and your family. I hope things work out. Karenjc 09:21, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Try and see it from their point of view. Getting divorced at 50, especially after 30 years of marriage, is not a decision that they will make lightly. Your mom must have some very strong reasons to be making such a drastic change—maybe she wants to talk about it. In any event, it is likely that one or both of them is/are deeply unhappy and they have decided that this is the only way to rectify it. Your parents are people too, with needs and feelings like the rest of us. This is going to be harder on them than it will be on you. My best advice is for you to try and understand why they are doing this. In the process you might come to appreciate your parents in a whole new light, or at least be convinced that despite the pain it is ultimately the right decision. Plasticup ^T/C 12:17, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

If it makes you feel any better, my parents did the same thing at about the same time (and it was my mother who instigated it, similarly). I was rather sullen about it for maybe half a year, and not the most pleasant person to be around, but after that I came to accept it, and in the end I think it was for the better for them. My mother has since moved on with other things in her life, my father recently remarried and is totally happy (with his frankly better-matched new wife).

There is no purpose in "fighting it". It will only cause you more pain in the long run, and could run a schism between you and one of your parents that is unnecessary. Better to try and make sense of it from your mother's point of view, and to help your father cope with it. He'll rebound.

In my case, I was aided in the fact that I no longer lived at home. My younger sister was still in high school, though, and she suffered more from the instability of the situation. Now that she's long out of the house (has since graduated from college), she's fine with it too.

Try not to take it personally. Try to see their side of things. Try not to take sides. Try not to create any lasting damage between you and either of your parents. Over time, you won't feel hurt or shocked by it anymore. It has been maybe six years since my parents broke up, and frankly, it's just not an issue for me anymore. In my case, both of my parents have benefited from their decision in the long term. My father is much happier now than he was when he was married to my mother, because her unhappiness trickled down in many ways in their day-to-day lives in a way that is only visible after the fact. My mother is much happier being on her own—she's gone off and started to live the life she always dreamed she would want to live. You need to start thinking of your parents not so much as "Mom and Dad", as a symbolic entity that serves as the anchor for what you know of "the Family", but as two adult human beings, two people not very different from yourself.

Here's my only real advice: talk to someone about it, someone you trust. I made the mistake of holding it in and really not telling anybody about it for maybe a year or so. I justified this to myself by saying that it was my business and no one else's, and it made me very upset to talk about it. But in retrospect I see this didn't help me any—that only by talking to people about it was I able to make sense of it, and to come to accept it for what it was and to understand what it wasn't. Don't hold it in—get it out there. Everything looks scarier in the dark—once it's in the light you'll be better able to evaluate it. I imagine posting this on here is one step in that, but probably a fairly early one. Keep at it. You'll make it. They'll make it. --98.217.8.46 (talk) 16:49, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Chances are they (individually or severally) would not have much success telling you who to have or not have a relationship with. Likewise you cannot have much success telling them who to love. Sometimes when people divorce it is a shock to one of them. Other times it is just a recognition of something that has already happened. They will each still be your parent. Try to work through this with them and maintain a relationship with each. Best wishes. Edison (talk) 04:42, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

A good place to discuss serious issues is on xkcd's Dear SB - http://forums.xkcd.com/viewforum.php?f=48 Avnas Ishtaroth _{drop me a line} 09:10, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

These things are rarely sudden decisions. Considering your age - it's perfectly possible that your parents have been staying together through an increasingly difficult relationship for many years in order not to upset you...going through the education system...getting your first job, etc. Perhaps they decided that once you hit that magical 21 years old that they could finally do what they'd wanted to do years ago. I honestly don't think you should interfere. The natural first reaction is to try to keep them together - but they don't WANT to be kept together - if they did, they wouldn't be doing this. Best to assure them both that you'll support whatever they decide - and (most important) that neither of them are going to "lose" you. This is going to be tough on both of them. Interfering can't possibly end well and taking sides would be an utter disaster. By the time people get around to using "the D word" - it's all over. SteveBaker (talk) 01:24, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

What is this called?

What is the name of the disorder where is person pulls out their hair and then consumes it? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.101.5.76 (talk) 01:38, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Trichophagia - Eron^Talk 01:44, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Then there's pica, which is eating of non-food items, which includes trichophagia. StuRat (talk) 16:14, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

id call it gross —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.188.139.77 (talk) 02:00, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Why? Cats do it all the time. But then they puke up the fur ball--79.76.229.54 (talk) 19:54, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

The frequency of occurrence of a phenomenon is not related to its grossitude. -- JackofOz (talk) 01:31, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

For example. - Eron^Talk 13:59, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

What's with the back door at Borders?

I know other places have a back door, but for some reason Borders stands out the most. By stand out, I mean stick out like a sore thumb by trying too hard not to draw attention. Like the certain types of quiet kids that always get noticed despite thier silence, it screams for attention. This door is not open to the public. It has no handle on the outside and always leads to a grassy area by the highway. It isn't an emergency exit, there's no sign above it, and nobody seems to use it, or look at it! It's the epitimy of a "mystery door" (Or perhaps a magic one, ha ha?...) It's driving me crazy! Would someone who works at Borders please explain this before I snap and push the damn thing open! The last thing I need is a disorderly conduct charge. --Dr. Carefree (talk) 03:46, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Hmm. Is it a green door? - Eron^Talk 04:52, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Which, of course, begs the question: What's Behind the Green Door? Surely the answer can't be as mundane as "the bookstore", although "the outside world" at least offers more possibilities.

Atlant (talk) 22:34, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Does it provide access to L-space? DuncanHill (talk) 22:37, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps it is a door staff use for leaving after the store closes? Presumably it is an emergency exit-door? Or perhaps the door is used for ushering in 'celebs' when they come to do book signings? I've literally no idea why but hey-ho it's fun to speculate. 194.221.133.226 (talk) 07:40, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

What Borders are you talking about? My local Borders in Cambridge has three doors, all open to the public. Algebraist 10:39, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

The rear doors I have seen in large bookstores are for the unloading of product from trucks, or sometimes for the entry and exit of employees, especially after the store closes. From your description, it isn't clear whether you are discussing a specific Borders, or all of them; for example, none of the Borders stores in my city connect to a 'grassy area by the highway,' as far as I recall. -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 10:41, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

I used to work at a Barnes and Nobles and the back door there leads into the Receiving department, which is just a big room where you open boxes, scan in the inventory, and set it up for distribution around the store for the next morning. You also handle other mail-related functions back there (like sending books back to the publisher, or stripping the covers off of books and sending those back). It's an incredibly uninteresting area of the bookstore (and a pretty dull job, incidentally—it's totally apt that if you work back there you are officially known as "a Receiver", as you "take it" from the corporation all day long). I imagine Borders is probably pretty similar in that respect. For the record, we never used the back door for entry and exit of employees at my Barnes and Noble (except for lunch breaks, mid-day comings and goings, etc.)—I don't think you could turn on/off the alarm from there? We always went out the front door. --98.217.8.46 (talk) 15:24, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

hi

want to know about love where i find it in wikipedia —Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.225.3.76 (talk) 07:37, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Love. Karenjc 08:27, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

You might find some love and affection at WP:MENTOR. I have already found all the love I need. I suggest avoiding WP:AfD, WP:DR, WP:RfC, and WP:RFA—no love there. Plasticup ^T/C 12:06, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Check out WikiLove and Wikipedia:No terms of endearment too. ---Sluzzelin talk 12:31, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Human behaviour

What is the name of subject relating the human's natural activities as behaviour —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.46.126.117 (talk) 08:15, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

anthropology and cultural anthropology I think are what you are after. You would also be interested in psychology and sociology 194.221.133.226 (talk) 08:58, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

If by "natural activities" you mean "activities universally done by humans regardless of culture and time" then you may want to check out the book Human Universals by anthropologist Donald Brown. It is an attempt to catalog traits that are universal to all human societies. Sub-disciplines that attempt to determine which activities are universal (and their possible adaptive value or reason for evolving) include: Evolutionary Psychology, Sociobiology (also including Sociology more generally), all of Anthropology, and Cross-cultural psychology.--droptone (talk) 12:33, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

There is also ethology, the scientific study of animal behavior. Humans are animals, too! — Twas Now ( talk • contribs • e-mail ) 14:44, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Stationery code in NZ?

What is the name of the naming system used in New Zealand to label different exercise books and paper pads? For example 14B8 is 7mm lined A4 loose leaf refill; 3B1 is a little 7mm lined note book; 1B5 is 7mm lined soft-cover exercise book and 1J5 is a 5mm grid soft-cover exercise book. They seem to be used only in NZ and I think it's quite a curiosity having a standard on something often neglected. --antilived^{T | C | G} 09:47, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Official name of the system? NZS 8132:1984! It's a New Zealand Standard. As you note, it's designed to make identification of stationery easy. Gwinva (talk) 00:08, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

See New Zealand standard for school stationery -- SGBailey (talk) 07:49, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

WHAAOE! --antilived^{T | C | G} 08:19, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

I was kicking myself that I never thought to look within WP for the answer, but I see the article is new. Yet again the Ref Desk comes to the rescue of WP! Gwinva (talk) 22:19, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Which proves that anyone who says that we've written so many articles that we've exhausted all possible notable topics doesn't have any idea what they're talking about. They qualify for the first annual Charles H. Duell Medal. -- JackofOz (talk) 23:29, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Minor injuries

Whenever there is an accident in the news you always hear that so many people suffered only "minor injuries". What counts as a minor injury? Stubbing your toe? Breaking your arm? How minor does an injury have to be to get a mention? --124.254.77.148 (talk) 10:09, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

I found a hospital information page here that lists some minor injuries: things that you might want treatment for, but which aren't life-threatening, like cuts and sprains. -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 10:20, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

I suggest that there's also an implication that it will get better reasonably soon. If you lose the use of a body part, for example, that's not minor. I'd guess fractures would be on the border between minor and not-minor, depending on who's counting. --Anonymous, 03:35 UTC, August 14, 2008.

And which bit is broken!86.197.20.168 (talk) 15:36, 14 August 2008 (UTC)DT

troll alternatives

What other sites could be recomended, that are similar to wiki ref desk, where numerous people ask numerous strange, wierd, and interesting questions. A place where one can be sent to troll rather than here? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.115.175.247 (talk) 16:33, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Almost any internet forum? --98.217.8.46 (talk) 17:05, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

4chan? — Twas Now ( talk • contribs • e-mail ) 17:18, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Yahoo Answers. Corvus cornix_talk 18:24, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

And don't forget The National Association of Gasbags. — OtherDave (talk) 22:09, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Yahoo answers would be quite appropriate. It's already full of genuine idiots; a troll would feel at home. 24.76.161.28 (talk) 07:39, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Speaking from experience, I can tell you that it is the fact that the Reference Desk takes itself so seriously which makes it a prime target for trolling. What fun would trolling yahoo answers be, when it is already full of sililar people? Also, I often find myself actually learning something through Wikipedia, which I guess is an added bonus. 212.85.21.254 (talk) 12:21, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Yeah you got to be pretty clever to get a troll post to bring more than ten replies over about 5 days 8-) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.76.203.9 (talk) 02:28, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

management

How is management becomes a process? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.54.67.78 (talk) 17:18, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

The article management process has many links to proceed through. Julia Rossi (talk) 00:38, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Scrabble dictionaries

Are there words in the TWL dictionary that aren't in the SOWPODS dictionary? I see that the latter is significantly larger, but even if there's one or two, I'd like to know. Cheers, Angus Lepper^{(T, C, D)} 17:31, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

In a related question, are there any large word lists (not necessarily used for Scrabble) other than these two? I'm trying to build a reasonably comprehensive dictionary for an anagram-finder. Angus Lepper^{(T, C, D)} 17:39, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

I checked using this SOWPODS dict and this TWL '06 dict, and the answer is: no, ALL TWL words (178690) seem to be in the SOWPODS list (267750 words). -- Aeluwas (talk) 18:42, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

See http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Wiktionary:Frequency_lists -- SGBailey (talk) 20:11, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

The enable2k word list (http://personal.riverusers.com/~thegrendel/software.html) contains 818 words that are missing from TWL06 (including several "ANTI*" and "UN*" words like antibaryon, anticapitalists, antilogarithmic, unabbreviated, unescorted, and unforgiven; some stuff that really doesn't seem that obscure like breadsticks, carsickness, descramble, drownings, overstrike, and stirringly; and some that are probably better spelled with a hyphen or a space or a capital letter like bald-headed, belly button, Neanderthal, and Southerner).

Of those 818, 462 are also missing from sowpods, including a bunch of pluralized "ANTI*" and "NON*" words like antisubversives and nonexplosives; the surprising (how did this not get into sowpods?) babysitter; breadstick (singular) although breadsticks (plural) is in sowpods; many more examples of questionable word construction, unhyphenation, and uncapitalization like beautifuler, color-blind, and Crayola; and even some short words that could be useful on the board like assed, clit, and dickys.

These counts don't include the words of more than 15 letters found in enable2k (4262 of them), which aren't in the Scrabble lists because they wouldn't fit on the board. There are other words that can't ever be played in Scrabble, like pizzazz. There's only 1 Z and 2 blanks so a word with 4 Z's is unplayable, but it's in TWL06 and sowpods for some reason, so that class of words apparently doesn't contribute to the differences between enable2k and TWL06/sowpods.

P.S. Aeluwas's word counts were off by one. TWL06 has 178691 words and sowpods has 267751. Those files have no line ending on their final lines, so if you wc -l'ed them you missed the last word. --tcsetattr (talk / contribs) 01:27, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Shouting out when in extreme pain

Why does this seem to help some people? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.76.229.54 (talk) 19:52, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

Don't know exactly how it's helpful, but it's an involuntary reflex when pain comes by surprise or becomes intolerable. Maybe at a primal level it serves to bring attention to the need for help; or as an emotional release in challenging situations to pre-empt pain (eg in martial arts sports). Julia Rossi (talk) 00:43, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Personally, screaming at the top of my lungs whilst dancing around waving my thumb that just got smashed with a hammer helps distract me from the searing pain. But I suppose that violates WP:OR, doesn't it? ;) --Alinnisawest(talk) 01:16, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Get's the crybabies sympathy. Edison (talk) 04:36, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

It's only WP:OR if you do it to yourself - if I hit you with the hammer and carefully document what happens as a result in a peer-reviewed scientific journal, then it's OK for you to write about it. I have a range of hammer sizes and weights here - we're going to need graph paper and a slide-rule. When are you free? SteveBaker (talk) 00:52, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Youre also going to need a calibrated sound level meter to record the volume of the WAAAAAAHHHHHHH!!!!! when you hit the thumb (or other body part) with varying (calibrated) impulses. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.76.203.9 (talk) 01:04, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Bicycles

How the hell do we ride them without damaging our (esp men) genital parts . ie what part of our bodies actually support our weight?. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.76.229.54 (talk) 23:45, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

This part. - Eron^Talk 00:01, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

A cutaway racing saddle does not support most of the buttoxks, but there seems to be a pelvic bones around there that the saddle slices between. However i feel there is still a lot of (unhealthy) pressure on the crotch.--79.76.203.9 (talk) 16:51, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Here's my cheeky answer: They make a seat that's split in two, with room in between for your kibbles 'n bits. However, I don't know whether this seat is actually effective or just a bum steer. StuRat (talk) 00:05, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

So it's just a haunch? OtherDave (talk) 01:54, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Watching the road race (Olympics) and wondering why the seat is so small and uncomfortable looking. It must be hell on the coccyx. Is there a reason for this? Julia Rossi (talk) 00:32, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

I dont think the mens coccyxs(?) touch the saddle as they are always bending forward. But it could be hell on the cocks and balls! Hence the original Q —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.76.203.9 (talk) 16:59, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Of course, you must know that Wikipedia no doubt has an article on this. See Bicycle saddle, esp. Bicycle_saddle#Crotch_pressure. --98.217.8.46 (talk) 00:50, 14 August 2008 (UTC)