Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2009 January 23

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January 23

Renegade

Conservapedia makes the following claim about President Obama's Secret Service codename with regard to their claim that he may be a Muslim:

Obama has chosen the Secret Service code name "Renegade". "Renegade" conventionally describes someone who goes against normal conventions of behavior, but its first usage was to describe someone who has turned from their religion. It is a word derived from the Spanish renegado, meaning "Christian turned Muslim."

I realize that article is probably committing the etymological fallacy by suggesting that the word's original meaning is somehow relevant to Obama's religion, but is their historical etymology of "renegade"(the part I've placed in bold) correct? 69.224.37.48 (talk) 01:18, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

Yes. The OED, for example, gives a 1599 citation from Richard Hakluyt (in his The Principal Navigations, Voyages, Traffiques & Discoveries of the English Nation): "He was a Renegado, which is one that first was a Christian, and afterwards becommeth a Turke." Michael Slone (talk) 01:37, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

I don't think the etymological fallacy applies here. Those numbnuts seem to be implying that Obama chose that name in full knowledge of its etymology, as a sort of arcane joke. Thanks for turning that rock for me; I would never have looked at that insane nonsense otherwise. It's hard to believe they're serious, but they are. --Milkbreath (talk) 02:02, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

It's better for your brain if you assume Conservapedia is not serious. Adam Bishop (talk) 02:05, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

Actually, the scary thing is that Conservapedia is serious. Its not right, but that doesn't mean that the people who write that shit don't do so in all earnestness. --Jayron32.talk.contribs 03:04, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

No, it can't be, because I don't think I could deal with a world where it was. Adam Bishop (talk) 03:59, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

Besides, it's probably irrelevant because(at least according to our article on the subject) people don't get to choose their own codenames, but the White House Communications Agency does. Anyway, thanks, Michael Slone, for answering my particular query. 69.224.37.48 (talk) 03:06, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

While the case of Christians-turned-Muslim was a significant historic usage in Spain, I think it's worth noting that the word simply means "one who reneges". That is, a denier or someone who rejects a cause or religion or belief or such. Current English usage is also consistent with that. I don't think the word has ever been exclusively used for people who reneged on their faith. --130.237.179.182 (talk) 15:27, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

Does this mean, btw, that Conservapedia thinks John McCain actually is an unbranded calf (Maverick)? --130.237.179.182 (talk) 15:40, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

It's best not to assume the editors of Conservapedia think at all. (Those who do are usually quickly blocked indefinitely.) —Angr 16:19, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps they also think he's the son of Cain. Algebraist 18:22, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

In the US, isn't (wasn't) it most often applied to an Indian who rejects a treaty? —Tamfang (talk) 18:30, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

Why is the number two (2) written two different ways ?

My six-year-old grandaughter asked me this question, probably because I do a lot of calligraphy,and she also sees twos written by me and in school using a loop. I've tried many searches and many different wordings and have gotten everything from an explanation of how Pythagorian geometry originated with dots in the sand that corresponded to the shape of the number of dots, to the importance of the number two in Caballah. I know there's probably a simple answer out there; something to do with ease of typesetting as compared to ease of hand writing, and that's what I told her, but I've got a reputation for taking all questions seriously to uphold, and of course,that's the great thing about kids' questions: they get you curious about things you thought you already knew. I'd appreciate any help, even if you can tell me where to look. Thank you. Sincerely, BR —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.76.189.248 (talk) 04:55, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

See Arabic numerals#History. -- Wavelength (talk) 05:17, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

See Regional handwriting variation#Arabic numerals. -- Wavelength (talk) 05:28, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

And 2 (number)#Evolution of the glyph. Nanonic (talk) 05:38, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

Wait, I'm confused. What's the other way of writing 2, appart from the usual (in my part of Europe, anyway) "2"? TomorrowTime (talk) 09:45, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

In handwriting, it can have a loop in the lower left-hand corner. —Angr 09:56, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

Shows it pretty well, I remember learning to write it as the second to right. I's just easier in some way, more fluent — CHANDLER^#10 — 10:05, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

I thought writing a reversed "S" or "Ƨ" would be the easiest and quickest approximation of "2". Yet I've hardly ever seen this in handwriting, although we've learned to accept it in seven-segment display. Maybe the base needs to be a straight line for easy recognition. ---Sluzzelin talk 11:46, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

If you check out these images [1], [2] you'll see the (former) German and Austrian ways of writing a "2" including the curly part. The Germans have gone through several reforms and revisions with warring factions claiming that their variety was easier. 76.97.245.5 (talk) 16:46, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

See Graphology. -- Wavelength (talk) 17:43, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

I think "1", "3", "4", "7", and "8" can all be written in different ways. ~AH1^(TCU) 19:35, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

Once when I had a data entry job, I noticed that there are precious few pairs of digits that cannot be confused by a sloppy hand. —Tamfang (talk) 06:06, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

You can often recognize Russians by the fact that their 9s look (to these American eyes) like a lowercase "g". Tesseran (talk) 06:30, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

"Arnoldian" Public Schools

I was reading a book the other day about the history english public (i.e. private) schools in which the author used the phrase, "like many Arnoldian Public Schools...." I wasn't quite sure what the term Arnoldian was in reference to, so tapped it into google, but alas to no success. Anyone know what the author means by this? Thanks 79.75.192.38 (talk) 07:47, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

Possibly referring to Thomas Arnold? Clarityfiend (talk) 08:10, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

The point is that Dr Arnold was a great reformer, and completely transformed Rugby School, with other schools adopting similar measures. Before that, the boys at public schools had spent much of their time hare-coursing, horse-racing, watching bare-knuckle fights, gambling and that type of thing. Younger boys were bullied mercilessly. Arnold was a devoutly religious man, and his reforms gave the public schools the ethos they largely retain to this day - what we might call "muscular Christianity." Have a look at the Wikipedia entry for Tom Brown's Schooldays. That was a novel set at Rugby School in the 19th century, and based on the experiences of its author Thomas Hughes. The book itself may be downloaded from Gutenberg, and will give a good idea of public school life in those days, and the issues surrounding Arnold's reforms. Pavel (talk) 09:04, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

Error Check

I'm writing the following in a card that I'm going to give to my favourite teacher before leaving school, and I'm really anxious to ensure that there aren't any grammatical mistakes in the message, because she's our English teacher. Please check the following text and point out the errors if you see any. Any other suggestions you might provide are also welcome.

There are few people who, in a short span of time, touch us in a way no one else has, transmuting our otherwise leaden lives into gold, like you have. Thank you for being one of those rare few who make life special, and for bringing back my faith in teachers once more.

My questions:

• Does the "like you have" part sound a bit forced and out of place?

• Should "once more" be placed in the middle, as in, "for bringing back, once more, my faith in teachers"?

Please answer within the next two days, because I'm going to give the card to her on the 26th of January. Thanks in advance. La Alquimista 17:38, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

I'd say that you can drop "once more" completely. If something has been "brought back once more" then that means it was brought back at least once previously. Perhaps you might try "for restoring my faith in teachers." As I read your note again, I think you might also consider dropping "like you have," as the next sentence picks up that implication. --LarryMac | Talk 17:50, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

Some English teachers think that "like" should not be used as a conjunction, as you do at the end of your first sentence. While I don't personally consider this an error, it does have a tone of informality, which I believe is not what you are going for, so I would change that to "as you have." Similarly but less noticeably, you may want to omit the comma after "special." John M Baker (talk) 18:43, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

There is something a little off about "few people" touching us "in a way no one else has". If someone touches us in a way no one else has, that person is not one of a few people, but the only such person. How about "touch us profoundly"? I agree that "like you have" is unnecessary, since the second sentence makes that connection. If you want to emphasize it, I agree that "as you have" would be more correct than "like you have". John is also right about omitting the comma. Marco polo (talk) 18:49, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

That message is charming, but if she is really is your favourite teacher, I think it's best to say what you liked about her. I don't know about the personality of your English teacher, but praise of my accomplishments makes me much happier than any generic compliments. --Bowlhover (talk) 03:14, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

It's an absolutely wonderful message, and I'm certain your teacher will love it. Except him or her to get a little choked up :) The change I would make is perhaps alter the wording of "touch us in a way no one else has", because it sounds a little awkward and the word "touch us" has some other connotations. How about replacing "touch" with "moves us" or "inspires us". I also agree that ", like you have" should be removed, it makes the sentence a little run-on and it is not necessary. As for the "once more", I think it's it's essentially ok the way it is, but it might be better if you omit it and phrase it like "and for renewing my faith in teachers".

In any case, it's a wonderful thing you're doing. I think your teacher is going to remember you for a long time. Belisarius (talk) 03:32, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Obama meaning

A wiki answer says the name Obama means crooked or slightly bent in the language of the Luos. Where can one find more about the name? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Vsjayaschandran (talk • contribs) 17:48, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

Dholuo language and the links from there might help. 76.97.245.5 (talk) 03:50, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

Elvis in Chinese.

I need some help. Suppose I want to describe some one (in Mandarin) who is wearing clothes covered in rhinestones, such as Elvis was known to wear. Would I use the verb 散布 san4 bu4 as Babelfish suggests? Something along the lines of 散布与假钻石的衣服。The 与 of course is surely out of place (the sort of confusion seen in "I saw the thief 'with' the binoculars"). Any help??? Thanks Duomillia (talk) 18:31, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

Cancel request. I've decided to write my compostion for class on a non-Elvis topic. Duomillia (talk) 20:45, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

there are no "non-Elvis" topics, you tool. Elvis is the King! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.120.227.136 (talk) 21:10, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

He is no king until such time as I can describe his rhinestone-encrusted wardrobe in excellent Chinese before my fellow classmates on Monday. Duomillia (talk) 03:34, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

散布 literally means dispersed, not covered with. To indicate that something is comprehensively covered with or saturated with something, it's better to use 遍布. wearing clothes covered in rhinestones = 所穿的衣著遍布假鑽石。 ～～～～ —Preceding unsigned comment added by Aas217 (talk • contribs) 05:44, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

Obama Inauguration Transcripts

Why does every transcript I've seen have "MR." in one sentence?

"What the cynics fail to understand is that the ground has shifted beneath them, that the stale political arguments that have consumed us for so long, no longer apply.

MR. The question we ask today is..."

What could that possibly mean? 169.229.75.128 (talk) 19:03, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

As answered at the miscellaneous desk, not every transcript has this -- the White House version doesn't, and neither does the one on the ABC News site. My guess is that the MR is a typo or transcription error that got repeated and repeated. Though I suppose it could stand for "Masonic Revenge." --- OtherDave (talk) 19:39, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

maybe the transcriptions were done by more than one person and whoever stitched them together didn't erase the initials one of them signed off with. This seems like the most likely explanation to me.

Why is "Corfe Close" funny?

A New York Times article [3] describes several places in the UK with funny or seemingly rude names like "Butt Hole Road," but it includes "Corfe Close" and says a hypothetical address "4 Corfe Close." Is it supposed to sound like "fuck off" in the local pronunciation, where the "r's" might be silent? Or is it somehow about removing clothes? How is it in the same league as "North Piddle" or "Wetwang?" Edison (talk) 20:00, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

The "r" in Corfe is silent (it simply modifies the preceding vowel). So the "fuck off" interpretation is correct. DuncanHill (talk) 20:03, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

Having read the article, I'm amazed they didn't mention Gropecunt Lane. DuncanHill (talk) 20:07, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

Maybe that's because it's a historic name, not a current one. There's nowhere in Britain called that any more. Malcolm XIV (talk) 18:13, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

Are you sure the "r" is silent ? I don't think the "r" in Corfe Castle is silent. And I don't think the "r" needs to be silent to make the joke (using the word in its widest possible sense) work. Gandalf61 (talk) 20:16, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

I don't know how you could pronounce the "r" in Corfe. It's pronounced "cawf". DuncanHill (talk) 20:25, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

Like "Core" but with an f at the end. Livewireo (talk) 20:41, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

The "r" in "core" is silent too, sounds the same as "caw" (what crows say). DuncanHill (talk) 20:44, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

I expect anyone with a rhotic accent would pronounce it. Algebraist 20:42, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

I do have a slight rhotacismus, so "r" tends to sound like "w" anyway. DuncanHill (talk) 20:44, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

I think we have a different understanding of what constitutes a silent letter. I thought a silent letter was one that does not affect the pronounciation of the word at all - like the "k" in "knife" - what our silent letter article calls a "dummy letter". You count a letter as silent if it is part of a dipthong - so the "r" in "fork" would be silent. Now I understand. Gandalf61 (talk) 16:31, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

That makes sense! The "e" in knife is silent too - but it does alter the "i". DuncanHill (talk) 21:39, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

I'm missing something in the above conversation, because how does cawf clause sound anything like "fuck off"? How do you get from close to off?? Z doesn't sound anything like F

Four Corfe... Fourc Orfe... --TammyMoet (talk) 21:17, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

Four = Faw, Corfe = Cawf. Faw Cawf. Say that out loud. Livewireo (talk) 21:23, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

Its like the one about my lost friend "Michael Hawk..." as in "Has anyone seen Mike Hawk"... --Jayron32.talk.contribs 22:00, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

There's a hill in Dorset which the Ordnance Survey call "Site Hill", but used to be spelt with an "h". It's near the River Piddle. DuncanHill (talk) 22:05, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

So "Corfe" is pronounced in most regions of Britain as "cawf" rather than "korff" as it would be in the U.S.? Is the prnunciation the same as "cough" or "koff?" And "farm" rhymes with "Mom?" Edison (talk) 21:15, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

It's "korff" - like Corfu without the final "oo". Gandalf61 (talk) 21:19, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

"Farm" rhymes with "ma'am" (or with "alarm" without the "a" at the beginning). DuncanHill (talk) 21:41, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

I don't think there's any part of England where 'Corfe' /kɔ:f/ rhymes with 'cough' /kɒf/. And while in much of England 'farm' /fɑ:m/ resembles some American pronunciations of 'mom', I don't think there's anywhere in England where it does (not that we use 'mom' very much except in American contexts, normally preferring 'mum' (/mʌm/ or /mʊm/ depending on which part of England). --ColinFine (talk) 01:13, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

I can imagine the accent that rhymes 'Corfe' with 'cough', but it's a parody of aristocratic accents and I'm not convinced it really exists in that form :P 79.66.105.133 (talk) 22:42, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

what is the origin of "man, that __ is one bad mother -- (SHUT YOUR MOUTH!)...But I'm just talkin about __"

what is the true origin of the reference man, that __ is one bad mother -- (SHUT YOUR MOUTH!)... But I'm just talkin about __?

Thank you! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.120.227.136 (talk) 21:03, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

It would seem to be Theme from Shaft by Isaac Hayes. --TammyMoet (talk) 21:15, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

Damn straight... (had to be said). --Jayron32.talk.contribs 21:58, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

And we can dig it! (again, a must) Fribbler (talk) 17:09, 24 January 2009 (UTC)