Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/List of IIHF World Under-20 Championship players for Canada/archive1

Add links
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was promoted by The Rambling Man 14:00, 3 February 2010 [1].

List of IIHF World Under-20 Championship players for Canada[edit]

Nominator(s): Scorpion0422 01:52, 10 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Toolbox

Oh boy, my first nomination since August. For those of you who may have forgotten me, I'm that guy that used to hang around here and occasionally nominate lists. This list is largely modeled after the List of Olympic men's ice hockey players for Canada and List of Men's World Ice Hockey Championship players for Canada (1977–present) (though it's more similar to the former, because it does not use the medal tally system used in the latter). This page might just be the most work I've ever done for a list, so enjoy. -- Scorpion0422 01:52, 10 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved comments from The Rambling Man (talk) 17:11, 24 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comments - bit too long buddy, scared off even our regulars! I'll need to do this review a bit at a time if that's okay... Lead first. Ping me when you're ready to move on!
  • "Under 20" or "Under-20" - be consistent.
    • Done.
  • I'd prefer to see NHL expanded before you use it.
    • Done.
  • "Canada has gone on to win more gold medals than any other nation. Canada has had two five year gold medal winning streaks, 1993–1997 and 2005–2009.[5] Canada's team is usually..." Three consecutive sentences starting with "Canada..." is a bit dry for me.
    • Fixed.
  • Not sure whether the "infamous brawl" is relevant in a list of U-20 players.
    • My rationale for it is that it had a huge effect on 20 of the players there because it meant that they did not get a medal and that the stats for a game they played were not counted. I felt it needed to be explained, and to do it properly takes a bit longer than I thought.
  • "The IIHF voted to suspend all players involved from competing in international events for 18 months, and all coaches for three years.[7] The player suspensions were later cut to six months, which allowed eligible players such as Fleury to participate in the 1988 tournament.[8] The brawl helped raise the profile of the tournament.." - sorry but this may sound picky - if we keep all this info on the brawl, then I'd prefer not to see three consecutive sentences starting "The..."
    • Fixed.
  • "12 goals, 19 assists and a total 31 points" - is a "point" a goal or an assist? If so this should be something like, "12 goals, 19 assists for a total of 31..." shouldn't it?
    • Yes, you are right. My mistake.

The Rambling Man (talk) 19:10, 13 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for taking a look. -- Scorpion0422 02:36, 16 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Okay, so onto the table...

  • Not sure why when sorting by, say, GAA, I get a mixture of 0.00 and en-dashes... before I get positive results.
    • I'm not sure what is going on with that. I tried using {{sort|0.01|-}} but then the dashes were coming in after the 0s but before the poisitive numbers. I'm not sure what's going on, it might be something with the tables.
  • Sorting by medal - I may have mentioned this before in Olympic style sorting, but isn't one gold worth more than a billion silvers, one silver worth more than a billion bronze? I guess it depends how you look at things, but I'd expect one gold (plus other types) to rank above two silvers...
  • You have MIN in the key, Min in the table.
    • Fixed.
  • And no Min (or MIN) for skaters. Can you explain this?
    • Minutes for skaters is not a regularily tracked statistic, partially because goalies usually play the entire game (as opposed to skaters, who usually averge 20-30 minutes and switch shifts dozens of times during gameplay), and minutes are used to calculate the Goals Against Average. I don't think this needs to be explained in the article.
  • Is it worth explaining that players who actually play in zero games still get medals?
    • Possibly. The only players who played zero games are goalies, and they still dressed for games, they just didn't log any ice time.
  • Note 1 has a spaced hyphen - naughty per WP:DASH.
    • Like I have said many times, I have given up trying to figure out that policy. Fixed.
  • And an unspaced hyphen too. Double naughty per WP:DASH.
  • "stats" (in note 1) should be statistics.
    • Done.
  • Refs 3, 4 and 8 need en-dashes.
    • Added.

The Rambling Man (talk) 21:53, 16 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for taking a look. -- Scorpion0422 04:32, 17 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]


Resolved comments from Giants2008 (27 and counting) 22:09, 30 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comments –
  • Comma after "The brawl helped raise the profile of the tournament in Canada."
    • Done.
  • "19 assists for a total 31 points over three tournaments." Add "of" after "total".
    • Done.
  • First general reference could use an access date, as does inline 12.
    • Done.
  • Reference 2 needs a publisher, and references 6 and 10 should have the publisher spelled out to match the other links to that site. Giants2008 (27 and counting) 21:27, 19 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Done. Thanks for taking a look. -- Scorpion0422 00:42, 21 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • I have added a publisher to ref #2. As for the first general ref, I added an accessdate during my initial efforts to address your concerns, but it didn't show because it's a cite book template. -- Scorpion0422 00:10, 29 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Still a lot of images without alt text. I'll leave it to others to decide if the list should be promoted as-is. Giants2008 (27 and counting) 22:09, 30 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Support – All looks good to go now. Giants2008 (27 and counting) 23:14, 31 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Resolved comments from Staxringold talkcontribs 23:15, 26 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comments Ah, a sports list, something I feel like I can talk about.
  • I feel as though the very first sentence of the lead is out of place. Shouldn't the background info on the tourny in general come before noting how many Canada has played in? Say... Insert it right after where ref 1 is now?
    • It's debatable, but my rationale was that the article is about Canada's involvement in the tournament, so it makes sense to start out with something that reflects that.
  • I suppose. Just reads oddly to me, saying Canada has done X a whole bunch of times before you know what X is. Staxringold talkcontribs 07:19, 21 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "With National Hockey League (NHL) players participating in the tournament, IIHF officials began to fear that true amateurs and young players were losing their places." Needs a ref, even if it's a repeat of a ref for another sentence.
    • The ref is the next sentence over.
  • Well, it depends on who you talk to. Half of all reviewers will tell you not to use two of the same citations in a row (unless it's either a quote or very contentious information), while the other half will say every statement needs an individual citation. I tend to lean more towards the former. -- Scorpion0422 04:01, 23 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • It's not less referencing, it's just using less of the same citation in a row. My point was that some reviewers will tell you not to use the same citation 2 or 3 times in a row and that one at the end will suffice. -- Scorpion0422 05:48, 23 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "As a result, full world championship status was given to the World Under-20 Championship." Also needs a ref.
    • Next sentence over.
  • "During the first years of the tournament, Canada did not have a national team, instead choosing to send a club team, typically the Memorial Cup winner." That sounds like enough of a statement of fact to need a ref, particularly with the words "instead choosing" and not just summarizing data from the table.
    • Next sentence over. The first two paragraphs of the lead are all dependant on citations, none of the statements rely on any of the general references.
  • Do Joyce or Podnieks cite the second paragraph? I ask because basically the first half, which includes a lot of specific details not in the online refs, remains uncited. Also, more information is always great, but what do the details of this brawl tell you about Canadian IIHF under-20 players?
    • Like I mentioned to TRM, the brawl is very important to note, because it meant the complete disqualification of a team and as a result 20 of the listed players did not win medals. As this list is basically about Canada's involvement in the tourament, I felt the brawl needed to be fully explained.
  • Fair enough, but what about citations? Large parts of those facts aren't in the online sources I can access. I WP:AGF that they're in the offline sources, if you say so. Staxringold talkcontribs 07:19, 21 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • I realize that, and it is one of the negatives about using print sources, but it does check out. -- Scorpion0422 04:01, 23 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "47.1%, have won at least one gold member." Typo, I assume.
    • Fixed.
  • Not specific to this list, but having the #s on the medal icons is very confusing. I definitely thought those were counts of those medals for a minute. :p
    • They come with the template used.
  • You include memberships in Halls of Fame, understandably. I get that this tourny isn't directly tied to a league (like the NHL or the Russian league), but might big NHL events (MVPs, Stanley Cups) be worthy of inclusion in the notes section? This is a real question, dunno how impractical that would be. Staxringold talkcontribs 06:30, 20 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • I have considered including first overall NHL draft picks, as play in the tournament does help raise the profile of top draftees, but I haven't yet. Thanks for the review. -- Scorpion0422 00:42, 21 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • That actually makes more sense, given the age group here, things like Rookie of the Year (does the NHL have that?), draft pick, etc. Staxringold talkcontribs 07:19, 21 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • There is an NHL rookie of the year award (Calder Memorial Trophy), but I'm against adding it. My reasoning is that the player's performance in the tournament has no impact at all on whether they win any NHL awards, so to note it would just be trivia. In theory, a player's performance could affect their being voted into a Hall of Fame (though let's be honest, very very few Canadian Hockey Hall of Famers were inducted for their international careers) and their status as a potential draft pick. I would be willing to add first overall draft picks, but NHL awards crosses the line. -- Scorpion0422 04:01, 23 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Resolved comments from Harrias (talk) 17:28, 23 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comments -
  • "In 1978, an all-star team was sent,[3] The first national junior team participated in the 1982 tournament, and became the first Canadian team to win a gold medal.[4]" Doesn't scan right, and 'The' shouldn't be capitalised.
    • Fixed.
  • "and had two five year gold medal winning streaks" for clarity sake, can we change to "two five-year"
    • Done.
  • "leading to both benches clearing". I know what you mean, but I don't think my girlfriend would. Is there any way to make it clear what you mean by this for someone that doesn't know too much about hockey?
    • Switched to "eventually leading to most of the players from both teams joining the brawl" Does that work better?
  • Mins and GA don't sort properly for me in the goaltender list. I get the 0, 1, 10, 11, 2 problem.
    • The tables are screwy, because the first time you click sort, it works perfectly (well, for me anyway), clicking again leads to problems. I'll try to fix it.
  • None of the images have alt text, which is a requirement per WP:ALT.
    • I'm going to say right now that I will not be adding alt text. It will be a waste of my time, and it will add thousands of bytes to an already huge page. I've always found that guideline horrible, and I don't see how it helps out in a list like this. Each one would be along the lines of "an ice hockey player wearing a red jersey and holding a stick while on ice", and how does that help people who are unable to see the image, given that there are dozens of them? Of course there's going to be pictures of players, what else would there be?
      • I will try to take care of the alt text when I get the time. Dabomb87 (talk) 05:34, 23 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
        • No, please don't waste your time doing it. -- Scorpion0422 05:48, 23 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
          • You can't just pick and choose the guidelines you follow. Featured content requires images to have alt text, and besides that, it's common courtesy to those accessing wikipedia with a screen readers; would you want to hear "Link image colon Theodore zero one two seven zero nine dot jee pee gee"? Harrias (talk) 10:19, 23 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
            • Too late, already done. It didn't take that long. Dabomb87 (talk) 14:49, 23 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
              • This is the first, and hopefully last, time I am ever going to point to this guideline, but we are allowed to ignore all rules. In this case, I feel that the alt text adds a lot of unnecessary bytes to the article and gives very little in return, which is why I am against it. If we were talking about one or two images, then okay (I would still find it pointless, but whatever), but we're talking about dozens of images in an already very large list. -- Scorpion0422 00:33, 24 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
All in all, it looks a very good list, and while there seem to be a fair few issues listed here, considering the size of the list, that's to be expected. Definitely worthy of FL in my opinion, once these issues have been cleared up. Harrias (talk) 11:42, 20 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the review. -- Scorpion0422 00:42, 21 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support, nice list, good work! Harrias (talk) 17:28, 23 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support I figured after adding alt text to all the images and looking at the list several times there was no way I could remain neutral. This is good stuff, and the list meets the FL criteria. Also, I made a few copy-edits to the lead for redundancy, flow, grammar and MOS compliance, so you may want to check over them. Dabomb87 (talk) 03:57, 31 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Featured_list_candidates/List_of_IIHF_World_Under-20_Championship_players_for_Canada/archive1&oldid=1089079965"