Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/List of Commando raids on the Atlantic wall/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was promoted by Dabomb87 22:05, 7 September 2010 [1].

List of Commando raids on the Atlantic wall[edit]

List of Commando raids on the Atlantic wall (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

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Nominator(s): Jim Sweeney (talk) 08:19, 17 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I am nominating this for featured list because, even though it is my first attempt at a Featured List I believe it meets the criteria. It has just had a WP:MILHIST peer review and all comments have been addressed.. Jim Sweeney (talk) 08:19, 17 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment I'll come back and do a full review of this later, but we don't start FL's like this anymore. Look at Army of the Danube order of battle for a somewhat similar list for an idea of how to open this list. When you're done, there is unlikely to be any bold text left. Courcelles 19:45, 17 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment—no dab links, no dead external links. Ucucha 06:42, 18 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Can't understand why Operation Chariot is referenced as the greatest raid of all time multiple times in the article. The only reason given is because Jeremy Clarkson made a documentary about it. Objectively it seems to me as Operation Claymore and Operation Archery had much better results especially as in Operation Chariot many were killed and many more captured. Philistus (talk) 23:34, 18 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Reply - No Clarkson did a BBC programme on the raid which used the title already in common use see here for a Google book search [2] The term is only used twice once in the lede and once beside the entry for the raid. --Jim Sweeney (talk) 06:27, 19 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Reply - oh ok, I get it now. Thanks for explaining. Philistus (talk) 14:30, 27 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Resolved comments from Sandman888 (talk) Latest PR 17:26, 23 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
*comment Sandman888 (talk) Latest PR 17:16, 20 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Galleries are usually discouraged, but I think your list has some merit in them. However, do put one or to pictures in the prose.
  • Lists no longer starts with "This is a list" but try to engage the reader with something sharp and exciting, like "Call me Ishmael." or other great lyrical intros.
  • Why isn't it sortable? Sortability is encouraged per WP:FL?.
Replies - image added into prose , change to text in lede and the first two sections are now sortable could not see any need for the other sections.--Jim Sweeney (talk) 19:05, 20 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Unit and "Numbers taking part" are good candidates for sortability. Sandman888 (talk) Latest PR 20:07, 20 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Also now included Jim Sweeney (talk) 20:12, 20 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Did you try sorting them? template:sort is what you need. replace 100 men with {{sort|100|100 men}}, etc Sandman888 (talk) Latest PR 22:30, 22 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Yes now added thanks Jim Sweeney (talk) 00:33, 23 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, should have told you. For two- and single-digit numbers use {sort
  • After sorting is ordered I support this list. Btw, per wp:lead, a picture up in the lead section would be good. Sandman888 (talk) Latest PR 17:26, 23 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. Well written and well sourced list. Ruslik_Zero 08:08, 25 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Resolved comments from The Rambling Man (talk) 16:32, 26 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
*Is there a consistent approach to capitalising Commando? "of all Commandos captured" vs "chronological list of all the commando raids"
All now large Commando
  • "two largest raids Operation Gauntlet and Operation Jubilee drew" neesd commas after "raids" and "Jubilee".
Fixed
  • "The largest raid was the 10,500 men" -> "The largest raid involved 10,500 men"
Fixed
  • "capture or death of all involved." all Commandos or everyone?
Specified Commandos
  • Image could be moved to the lead, and the caption should be improved to be more informative.
Image replaced into lead
  • Date column doesn't sort correctly in Firefox.
I think this was with the different formats used 1/2, 3&ndash4 etc. I have removed the sort code, I believe it would only go from top to bottom which is the same as the first column 1 - 57
True. The Rambling Man (talk) 07:49, 26 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Propaganda victory two Germans killed for no loss" surely some punctuation here!
Yes added
  • Sortable table so link linkable things (e.g. 3 Commando) every time.
See above
  • "destroyed[23]." remove .
  • Be consistent with use of full stops in the notes.
All now added
  • Agree with concern over single source stating "greatest raid of all time".
Web link to BBC removed and replaced by two book sources
  • Also, no information on why.
Note added
  • "four 1/2 hours" ->"four-and-a-half"
Changed to "four-and-a-half"

The Rambling Man (talk) 13:53, 25 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the taking the time to assess the list, hope I have resolved your concerns. --Jim Sweeney (talk) 17:59, 25 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose

  • Unit sorts curiously as well.
all wikilinked which solves the problem
Not strictly true, I would expect 2 Commando to follow 1 Commando, not come after 10... The Rambling Man (talk) 07:49, 26 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Its been a bit trial and error but I have managed to sort them now, in cases where two or more units were involved I have put the higher formation or senior unit first. --Jim Sweeney (talk) 09:46, 26 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support! One question: Is alt-text required on pictures in galleries? MisterBee1966 (talk) 14:06, 1 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I was not sure so tried to add alt text but it does not work within the gallery template. Jim Sweeney (talk) 21:58, 1 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The FLC criteria doesn't require alt text at all at present. Courcelles 01:48, 2 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Resolved comments from Courcelles 21:58, 6 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
*Comments
I can't say I'm too happy with the introductory sentence. It's a one-sentence paragraph that is out of chronological order.
"This is a list" is depreciated in FLs these days.
Line changed
"The 57 raids were all between 1940–1944 and were mostly against targets in France, which had 36 raids. There were 12 raids in Norway, seven raids in the Channel Islands and one each in Belgium and the Netherlands." Don't mix numbers and words in like-to-like sentences.
This is in accordance with the Wikipedia:Manual of Style#Numbers as figures or words.
No, it's not. Bullet point four, "Render comparable quantities, mentioned together, either all as words or all as figures" Courcelles 18:42, 5 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Learn something new every day. Changed 12 - twelve etc.--Jim Sweeney (talk) 18:50, 5 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
"Operation Chariot the raid against dock installations at Saint-Nazaire, has since been called the greatest raid of all. " First,s et off "the raid against dock installations at Saint-Nazaire" with em-dashes, not a comma splice, second such a POV statement needs a source.
Its referenced in the body of the article. Its not normal to reference in the lede.
The em-dashes have been added.
Ref 33; we have two Saunders books in the references, which is being cited here?
Rectified it was the 2005 book

In general, this needed to go through an ACR over at Milhist, as the prose is choppy and lacks a lot of flow. It needs attention from subject matter experts as well as an independent copyeditor.

Its not normal for lists to go through an A Class review at MILHIST but the point is appreciated. It has had a peer review admittedly with only one reviewer. What would you class as a subject matter expert ? V--Jim Sweeney (talk) 18:41, 5 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Courcelles 17:19, 5 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Independent copy edit completed. Hopefully this will be adequate as there do not seem to be a lot of active copy editors at present. --Diannaa (Talk) 20:27, 5 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Support Comments

Yes missed that - both done --Jim Sweeney (talk) 08:02, 6 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I've found it very helpful to build a library page with all of my books and references properly formatted; you might consider the same.--Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 15:24, 6 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the support and that's a good idea as I use the same books all the time. --Jim Sweeney (talk) 16:11, 6 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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