Wikipedia:Featured article review/Palazzo Pitti/archive2

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article review. Please do not modify it. Further comments should be made on the article's talk page or at Wikipedia talk:Featured article review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was kept by User:Marskell 10:25, 21 September 2008 [1].

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Palazzo Pitti

Notified: WikiProject Italy, WikiProject Architecture, Giano_II

previous FAR (17:21, 13 January 2008)

Extremely short on references. A topic like this is likely to be researched and many claims are made, yet very rarely referenced. There are quite a few references to books here so excuse my inability to check their verifiability or relevance to particular statements. However, here are a few visible examples:

• "Though impressive, the original palazzo would have been no rival to the Florentine Medici residences in terms of either size or content. Whoever the architect of the Palazzo Pitti was, he was moving against the contemporary flow of fashion. The rusticated stonework gives the palazzo a severe and powerful atmosphere, reinforced by the three times repeated series of seven arch-headed apertures, reminiscent of a Roman aqueduct. The Roman-style architecture appealed to the Florentine love of the new style all'antica." No sources. It appears that only the final part of the testing is referenced. yet sources are needed to back up the other many claims.

• "Work stopped after Pitti suffered financial reverses following the death of Cosimo de' Medici in 1464. Luca Pitti died in 1472 with the building unfinished." Source of his death at this particular date?

Done. Ceoil ^sláinte 12:03, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

• "The Austrian tenancy was briefly interrupted by Napoleon, who used the palazzo during his period of control over Italy." Specific source also needed.

Done. Ceoil ^sláinte 12:03, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

• "They contain a collection of Medici portraits, many of them by the artist Giusto Sustermans. In contrast to the great salons containing the Palatine collection, some of these rooms are much smaller and more intimate, and, while still grand and gilded, more suited to day to day living requirements. Period furnishings include four-poster beds and other necessary furnishings not found elsewhere in the palazzo. The Kings of Italy last used the Palazzo Pitti in the 1920s. By that time it had already been converted to a museum, but a suite of rooms (now the Gallery of Modern Art) was reserved for them when visiting Florence officially." Source?

Done. Ceoil ^sláinte 12:03, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

It goes on and on. It's useless to list examples, they are blatantly obvious. There are numerous paragraphs which go into fine detail but are not sourced at all! How can the verifiability of this article be possibly considered with so few sources? This needs extensive amounts of more references! Surprisingly enough, this article has already passed a FAR for the exact same reason. I wouldn't really agree with the article being kept as it seems that a lot of users pointed out numerous issues which didn't seem to be completely resolved. It was really only the last two comments from the previous review that supported keeping the article, and one of them was from SandyGeorgia. I think this was a little lenient (or a lot!). Despite any opinions, more refereces are desperately needed for this article! Domiy (talk) 05:15, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

Domiy, you currently have Absinthe and Scotland national football team at FAR: please withdrawn this FAR until one of them closes. See WP:FAR instructions, thanks. (And by the way, you misrepresented my position on the previous FAR.) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 05:48, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

The FAR page states no particular allowed number of article reviews by any user. Not from what the main page says at least. I have nominated all my previous and still ongoing FAR's solely due to my rights as a Wikipedian. To avoiding use an extremely nerdy cliche, I will more so say that I have nominated them because they deserve to be. Scotland was in desperate need of image copyright checks which it beneficially received, as well as some others issues. And any half blinded cyclops will be able to tell you that Absinthe doesn't even reach GA status, hence most certainly not FA. Also, please note, if you follow or observe the FAR's carefully, you will notice I have cracked down on specific things which my article failed for. I'm not making up new rules as I go along, I'm just trying to make sure articles are treated equally. Domiy (talk) 15:24, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

It's rather clear in the first sentence of the WP:FAR instructions: Nominators typically assist in the process of improvement; they may post only one nomination at a time, should not nominate articles that are featured on the main page (or have been featured there in the previous three days), and should avoid segmenting review pages. Have you helped restore any of the three articles you have running at FAR, or any others? Please discuss at WT:FAR rather than further filling up this page, and please refrain from multiple nominations; also, please be aware of WP:POINT when stating that you are nominating other article because yours didn't pass fAC. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:09, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Two things Sandy: first of all, its funny that you should mention point of view in an accusation that I am cracking down on other articles because my nomination failed. While that may be the case, its still blatantly obvious that both articles I cracked down on so far (before this one) were/are in desperate need of fixups. Scotland national team was using copyrighted images, had some bad instances of POV, and even had some issues with the sources (dead links, reliability etc). Absinthe is still in need of all the points I mentioned on the nomination page. The article has decreased very badly in quality and most likely wouldn't even pass GA at its current state. And secondly: yes, I have helped fix up these FARC. I have raised numerous discussions and issues which have helped the active pages regain FA status (again with the exception of Absinthe as the removal candidate page is inactive). Palazzo Pitti is no different. It requires additional sources and language fixups to reach FA standards again. And I won't take anything lightly until it gets these (unless it becomes de-featured). Domiy (talk) 03:11, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

The utter rubbish written above (no, not you, Sandy - above you) is one of the reasons I no longer write FAs, if one has to cite well known historical facts and every indisputable fact then one may as well pack up writing and just leave every page as "You will find the following books mention the subject of this page" While it is quite apparent that the nominator has a complete lack of knowledge of basic European history, that is still no excuse for every easily checked fact to be cited. We have to credit the reader with basic education, or every page would be patronising to read. Giano (talk) 06:51, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

Exactly. It looks like a clean, reasonably well cited article. It underwent a FAR few months ago, there are no big changes since then. I suggest to speedy close this FAR. There are much more important articles waiting for upgrades.--Ioannes Pragensis (talk) 08:49, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

Umm, no. This is one of the statements which can just as easily lead to the conclusion that Wikipedia is a ridiculous website. Read some further guidelines. For example, WP states you need to explain technical jargon relating to your article. This is just one of many instances withinin WP which states that you cannnot assume knowledge of the reader. If we were to start making assumptions, then that would mean I can just make the assumption that a larger portion of people in the world already know what the WP articles are about. So, in technicality terms, WP should immediately cease to exist due to it serving no purpose. Doesn't work this way. I'm sorry. The FA criteria clearly states that sources must be included where necessary. Have you forgotten the use of WP? RESEARCH! This is a website mainly used for research! There can be many instances where somebody has to submit a paper based on a subject they know really little about. Don't mock this. I will tell you, as a student myself, this happens very frequently in life. Furthermore, interested readers may want to use WP to increase their knowledge on a particular subject. If your going to assume that sources aren't needed regularly because the majority of people should/would already know the historical facts, then you aren't a very satisfying editor. Think of the article users!

So basically, your argument is nowhere near sufficient. At times, one can claim that references aren't needed because the statement is very basic and well known. An example of such a statement is 'the grass is green', or 'the sun is hot'. But to assume that the majority of readers already know specific historical facts based on very old subjects is not sufficient at all! Sorry, this is a clear cop-out. Follow the FA rules! I can just as easily call you an unreliable liar when you state something without a reference. For the second time, consider this statement --"By that time it had already been converted to a museum, but a suite of rooms (now the Gallery of Modern Art) was reserved for them when visiting Florence officially." Do you honestly believe that researchers can assume this statement as 'true' even though it has not a single source to it? Sorry, you can't make such an assumption. Thats not what WP is about.

Ignoring the risk of another blast from Sandy, I will once again direct you to this article. Notice how many statements are not referenced once, but twice, and even three times! Mind you as well, they are some basic facts. The large amount of references in that article as solely due to advice given from Peer reviews and FAC's. I tried to bring up the cop-out argument as well. And you must admit, it is much more stronger in my case. I was asked to provide references to the fact that a national football team have fan songs. Sheesh, what a waste of time that was...yet I did it anyway. It goes on. I have provided references for the most simple of statements. You wont find many unreferenced statements in that article because I don't make assumptions - I actually follow WP's objectives and guidelines. So once again, I'm truly sorry, but if you don't have verifiable sources to back up the fact that certain buildings were refurbished in particular ways, styles, formats etc, then you have what WP calls original research. Certainly not FA quality. I'm really still trying to get over the laughable assumption you made on the majority of people already knowing about such extreme history. In case you haven't noticed, history articles are one of the most common read ones for a reason. Its because people need to read them to gain information on them. Domiy (talk) 15:24, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

• If someone were to add inline cites for statements like the four identified by Domiy, I wouldn't remove them, but I also don't see any need to add them. Those statements don't look controversial to me, and they could be verified from the references at the bottom of the page. The last FAR ended 8 months ago. Not much changed since then. Gimmetrow 13:31, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

One statement - "Many items in the collection were gifts to the Florentine rulers from other European sovereigns" -. Enough said one should think. If you think that such a statement is unlikely to be challenged, then you need a really thorough period of refreshment and modernness. I have little to no knowledge at all about history, yet I still came upon this article because I have a related assessment task due in a few weeks on design history. Therefore, I have crossed WP off my research list for now because the users on here are really being unfair and not giving me the expected correct information. Let me get this straight, if you dont provide references to more than 3 or 4 statements, no matter how basic they are, in university assessment papers, then you will have to re-do it; no questions asked. Yet here you are saying its ok to not provide sources to some very old and specific facts about historical buildings and events because you think most users should know this information already. If somebody is knowledged enough to already know some of the unreferenced statements, then they have no business being on the page in the first place because they should then also know the rest of the article; so their purpose on WP is pointless. Domiy (talk) 15:24, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

A WP article is not in the same genre as a university research paper. If your university policy requires that any fact or idea which is not your own must be cited with an inline citation, then you do that. Although a WP article can be written like that, it's not (at present) required to be written like that. Writers may work from lists of sources they provide at the end of the article, and non-controversial statements which are covered in multiple sources don't require inline citations. That doesn't assume those facts are common knowledge - it assumes the facts are commonly found in the reputable sources given, and a reader can find them if desired. If you're writing a university paper you shouldn't be using WP directly anyway. Use it indirectly: the lists of sources and external links are often well filtered and can usually be employed as a bibliography to find citable sources for your research papers. Gimmetrow 15:40, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

Thank you Gimmetrow! Your much more specific and productive comments make a lot more sense than the users who are assuming that most readers should already know some very challenged history fact (from readers who have little knowledge about the subject I mean). Concerning my university paper, its not much of a problem. I'm not using WP directly, although I do use it very commonly because its easy to access and you can often find some very good info here. Don't think about me personally, think about the next reader who comes along in search of historical facts on Palazzo Pitti. I'm pretty certain that they would be disjointed to find so many unreferenced statements; especially on a Featured Article! Remember the meaning of FA, which is to exemplify WP's best work. I can find numerous articles within 10 minutes which are not only much better referenced than this, but also much better written. Now I'm not going to get into that, I feel I have made my points of FAC comments being biased; its no secret, everybody really knows it. This is nor the tome or the place for such, so I will steer back to the main discussion. I understand how some articles may work in the way you said Gimmetrow. Sometimes the later statements within the article are backed up the primary sources given earlier. However, if this is the case, be sure to reference it anyway! There are 21 notes/references on this article page. So how is the user supposed to know which reference supports whatever statement? As I said, if the references can be found in the already cited books, then create a template and use the same sources again for the unreferenced statements. Otherwise, there can be easy challenged grounds of controversially stated information known as originality research or even pure speculation. Here is another statement ---"Florence receives over five million visitors each year, and for many of these the Palazzo Pitti is an essential stop. Thus the palazzo still impresses visitors with the splendours of Florence, the purpose for which it was originally built." This needs a statistical reference. How do we know Florence receives so many tourists each year? How do we know so many of them stop at the Palazzo Pitti? Sources! Domiy (talk) 23:35, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

There are some other external factors to consider about citations. Articles which get a lot of edits often need more citations so other editors can easily check new edits. Certain topics are popular with blogs or TV-show hosts who (innocently or not) may help spread incorrect information. This article doesn't involve one of those topics. It doesn't change very fast. The article was viewed 4003 times in August 2008. The diff from the last FAR [2] for Palazzo Pitti, spanning over 8 months, includes only 24 edits. Those edits include 2 bits of vandalism and 2 reversions, 4 interwiki bot edits and 2 other bot edits. Giano wrote most of the article and is able to keep up with any changes. The text flows well without much change in style or diction. Readers can consult the references at the end at their leisure. Unlike some other articles which get a lot of edits, this one just doesn't seem to have a pressing need for inline citations, although presumably nobody would object if someone felt like adding them.

Compare that to another article I work on. In August it received at least 4000 views each day and over 200 edits including some 30 bits of vandalism and reversions. Someone has to check whether all those edits are sneaky vandalism or legitimate typo fixes. Inline citations make it easy for other editors, who may not know the entire article, to check edits for sneaky vandalism. Citations do tend to break up the writing, but I'm willing to accept that so others can help prevent the article being filled with nonsense. Gimmetrow 01:17, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

• I have a question about "The rusticated stonework gives the palazzo a severe and powerful atmosphere"—if I were to write a sentence claiming "[this thing] gives [article subject] a severe and powerful atmosphere" in my usual choice of article fare, I'd have people slapping an {{Or}} tag on that. What's the difference here? I realize this sounds like I'm trying to push a point, but this is a serious question. Pagrashtak 14:10, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
  • That phrase looks like an opinion, so perhaps it should be cited. I mentioned that in the last FAR. But does it need to be? It looks like a consensus view - almost a formula. Compare: "The Mona Lisa has an enigmatic smile". It seems unnecessary to add a citation for a non-controversial statement routinely found in sources. Gimmetrow 14:46, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

• Further comments by Domiy - I just noticed a fair bit of POV in this article as well. It seems that some statements are being very praising and described without a neutral point of view. Furthermore, these POV statements are not referenced so it is clear that they do not come from any well known and verifiable sources; but rather from the admiring WP editors. Examples:

• • "Compared to many of Italy's great palazzi the exterior of the Palazzo Pitti at first glance pales: the palazzo does not have the overpowering and commanding presence of Caserta or the citadel features of the Royal Palace of Turin, nor the elegance of the Naples Royal Palace or Rome's papal, later royal, palace, the Quirinal, both with facades by Domenico Fontana. The Palazzo Pitti's architectural merit is in its great severity and simplicity. One continual architectural theme used throughout four centuries has produced massive but impressive elevations and façades which belie the long evolution and history of the structure. The architecture commands attention by virtue of size, strength and the reflection of the sun on the glass and stone, coupled with the repetitive, almost monotonous theme. Ornament and elegance of design take second place to the vast and solid mass of rusticated stonework relieved solely by the arcade-like frequency of the arched window embrasures. As with many Italian palazzi one has to enter the building in order to truly appreciate its architecture." ---- The first and last statements in particular are blatant POV. There are a few other instances as well. I think a brief copyedit could do the trick. Domiy (talk) 23:35, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

It is not POV, it is obvious fact. If you copyedit any of that - I shall revert you. Giano (talk) 06:28, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Every single source used will attribute to these claims. Its common place. Its saying Mona Lisa has two eyes in the middle of her head, and a nose, and a mouth. Ceoil ^sláinte 12:45, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

No, the way this article sounds; its more like saying Monalisa has two beautiful eyes and a well shaped nose, with a mouth that has made every other woman in the world jealous. And in case you didn't notice, that is clear POV.

Few would argue Lisa's eyes are 'beautiful', but I suppose thats why we have to pander to the few like you. Ceoil ^sláinte 22:30, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Oohh, I'm really scared. (The truth is I'm terrified. When someone reverts my edits I feel as if I am not good enough, and that I should just quit at life). Please don't make wikithreats (new word of the day!). You need to clearly recognise the meaning of POV in order to make a comment on it. No matter how great something is, an encyclopedia is not supposed to proclaim such. We all know how delicious chocolate is, but if the article states "chocolate is amongst the best-tasting solids developed within the last 10 centuries and it's extremely sweet taste is an amazing treasure of life which truly exemplifies its awesome taste" - then instances of POV come in. Consider this example. Chocolate actually is, to about 98% of people on earth, the best-tasting wrapper food available. Yes, it is nice and sweet and it just puts a smile on your face because its taste is just so darn great. However, as per WP:POV, we are not here to make assumptions. We musn't leave out the remaining 2% of people who don't like chocolate. Also, WP is NOT a descriptive or appraisal page, like a forum or anything. It's an encyclopedia. In other words, the palazzi may be great and have true beauty, but unless it is part of a verifiable quote, you cannot describe it as such in an encyclopedia. I can go on with examples all day. Within the last two years, Croatia's national football team have beaten England, Germany and Italy at least once; these are 3 top footballing nations. However, the article page cannot proclaim that "Croatia have been an amazingly succesful side from 2006 as they have dominated their respective fixtures against England, Germany and Italy. No other nation has come close to reaching their rapid rise in football power". While this may be true, and even backed up with references, its clear POV, just like some statements in this palazzi article. If you fail to comply with these guidelines, then I will ensure that the article goes through a lot more of these reviews for removal as they clearly don't follow WP's guidelines, which is an obvious aspect of the criteria. Domiy (talk) 08:33, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

tl;dr. Can you summarise that outburst please. You lost me at "Oohh, I'm really". Ceoil ^sláinte 10:45, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Ridiculous. Your claim that "they do not come from any well known and verifiable sources; but rather from the admiring WP editors." has absolutely no basis in fact - in my sourcing of Mountfort, very few praising statements couldn't be cited, and I suspect that I just didn't have access to the sources for the exceptions. Your chocolate analogy is absurd (and I doubt it's actually true), and I see nothing wrong with the description of the Croatia team's recent success. Nousernamesleft (talk) 20:41, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Then you really, REALLY, need to have a read of the guidelines. Once again, I direct you to WP:POV. You need to realise, for the second time, no matter how great something is, an encyclopedia article cannot use such language to describe it. Thats not what Wikipedia is about. Go to a fan forum and post such praising information there, perhaps it will be accepted. But not here, especially when we are considering this is a Featured Article. Observe the statements. It says that one has to actually enter the palazzi to see its true features. This may be POV. Some people may actually like the outside of the palazzi, perhaps to look at its unique design from afar. An encylopedia ecists to deliver all related information and then to let the reader decide for themselves. Including assumptive language like this is absurd, you can keep it in there, but please note that its popularity will decrease as it most likely will no longer be a Featured Article, and rightfully so if the editors can't see the blatant POV and need for citations. Domiy (talk) 21:57, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

I find it hypocritical to the extreme that you would tell me to reread the guideline. Maybe you should take a look at the first sentence of the first section of the NPOV guideline, which reads "The neutral point of view is a means of dealing with conflicting verifiable perspectives" (emphasis mine). Nousernamesleft (talk) 22:54, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Exactly, and the fact that you describe the palazzi in such ways in a conflicted perspective as it does not sound neutral. Perhaps it does to the admiring editors, but to the everyday reader it certainly doesn't. Therefore, it is a conflicted perspective which must be dealt with. Many sources, even the most reliable and verifiable, will always present a one sided point of view. BBC News, SkySports, People's Daily, The Observer and even some books are guilty of such. The entire purpose of these news articles and books are in a lot of cases to entice the reader to ensure the success. So its clearly obvious that they will use praising language to enhance the quality of the writing and attract others. Additionally, many news stories and books are derived from the personal opinions of the author and not the actual corporation/domain as a whole. So even if you find a good source which praises the qualities of the palazzo, you need to be very careful in the way you word it. It can be included as a quote or even descriptive perspective (provided that you acknowledge who's perspective it is). But for an encyclopedia to create its own perspective and make such assumptions without a neutral point of view is madness at its worst, and certainly not something we can call WP's best work. Domiy (talk) 23:21, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Are you sure you understand the meaning of the word "conflicted"? Are there any sources claiming that the Croatia team had a mediocre or average recent record, or highlighting its losses? Nousernamesleft (talk) 23:32, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Thanks Ceoil for finding a ref to the obvious. Regarding you Domiy, I note your statement: "If you fail to comply with these guidelines, then I will ensure that the article goes through a lot more of these reviews for removal" - If that is you attitude, then, I wish you joy of it, many people here have chosen to make a career, which could have been better spent, of challenging me. You see I could not give two cents if this page is a FA or not, it is the integrity and information of the page that is important to me. You may remove its FA status, you will not remove it's information and integrity. That I have not provided you with the information to pass an exam, is your problem. However, I am not going to waste my time referencing facts that students should know before they begin to truly study a subject. I am normally very willing to help students interested in such subjects. In future, if you need help with exams you will find the great thing about Wikipedia, is you can normally see who wrote what, and email if necessary the author for further information - and you may find that most people will try to help you. Giano (talk) 20:46, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Your welcome Giano; it took me about 30 seconds to find that. There are bits and pieces to cite yet, but this is a strong artice; I dont see any danger of demotion at all. Domiy has raised issues, they are being addressed; Domiy dont post again until they are addressed. ie breathing space pls, dude. Ceoil ^sláinte 20:56, 20 September 2008 (UTC))

• WP:TLDR, WP:SOAPBOX, WP:POINT. I'm unwatching this FAR because Domiy has several times referred to listing articles at FAR because an article he nominated didn't pass FAC (along with accusing FAC reviewers of bias); besides the WP:POINT factor and that some of his FAR statements don't reflect an understanding of policy, that his multiple FARs remain listed in breach of FAR instructions and that he is WP:SOAPBOXing on the FAR pages is an unproductive timesink. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:20, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Close please. We should all go home now. Ceoil ^sláinte 23:26, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. Nousernamesleft (talk) 23:32, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Come Sandy, don't be so negative. Remember one of the golden rules on Wikipedia: Assume Good Faith! Your accusing me of nominating removals due to the fact that my nomination failed. As I said before, this may be the case, but certainly nobody can argue that my nominations were worthwhile and productive, and above all necessary. Need I remind you that Scotland team page went through many issues as it was using copyrighted images and had terrible language (as agreed by others)? I should think not. I will wait until the others close before I nominate anymore, but be assured there will be more to come. The amount of Featured Articles which are extremely bad quality is absurd. It has been identified that the sole reason for this is because they passed nomination a very long time ago; hence my purpose is to modernize the nominations and ensure that they are treated equally as all other nominations are today. Perhaps you are shocked that I have pointed out numerous flaws in articles that you or your delegate have promoted, or perhaps you are just tired of the same work everyday. I don't know, but you really need to assume good faith. All FAR's which I nominate are productive and necessary, for whatever reason. It's funny you should mention Soapboxing when that is actually what the editors of this article are doing. They are praising the palazzo pitti as one of the greatest buildings in the world without a neutral point of view. Its almost as if they are trying to advertise it, another form of SoapBoxing. Perhaps you Sandy need to adopt a neutral POV before you make such decisions and assumptions on FA's. I don't see what running away (ie - taking this page off your watchlist) will prove or solve. Domiy (talk) 06:21, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

See talk page. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:57, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

• I "third" the closing. Domiy, at one point I had considered a lengthy reply pointing out the problems with your arguments, but you are increasingly looking like a troll. Ah yes, "this severe and forbidding[1] building"—what an "advertisement"! (As a side note, I don't want Giano's FAs getting special treatment, I want all FAs getting better treatment. It amuses me that the cool new meme on wikipedia is to explicitly not "assume good faith" of articles. Our articles are our enemies! Paranoia everywhere! Every statement is a possible corruption of knowledge, and we must assume the reader is an idiot who can't contextualize any assertion! I've watched too many people try to condemn good articles in this forum using ridiculous argumentation.) Whiskeydog (talk) 07:06, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
• And the "POV" accusation is ridiculous. The point of view is suited perfectly to an article on architecture. It does not come across as editorial at all. What would we learn about the palazzo if we didn't conclude with an analysis like "Compared to many of Italy's great palazzi the exterior of the Palazzo Pitti at first glance pales: the palazzo does not have the overpowering and commanding presence of ..... [instead] The Palazzo Pitti's architectural merit is in its great severity and simplicity." Consensus is clear: I'd be bold and close this FAR myself but I don't know what they do with the pages. Whiskeydog (talk) 08:17, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

WP:SNOW ahead. Careful now.[3] Ceoil ^sláinte 08:51, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

Closing. 'Nuff said. Marskell (talk) 10:14, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.