Wikipedia:Featured article review/Final Fantasy X/archive1

Final Fantasy X

Article is still a featured article

Yesterday, Silence, Ryu Kaze, and myself attempted to improve the article's comprehensiveness. Consiquently, we had to expand several sections and redo many aspects of the plot synopsis. Despite clear improvements, the article's length may raise a few red flags, as people complained about the length during the FAC. Although the new information has been compressed as much as possible, we must ensure that the article still upholds the guidelines/consensus and is still fit to be featured on the main page in three days. — Deckiller 22:35, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

The pre-edits and post-edits versions can be compared at http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Final_Fantasy_X&oldid=63861357 and Final Fantasy X. It should also be noted: that five additional fair-use images (all with rationales) have been added to the article; that the article is scheduled to appear on the Main Page in 3 days, hence the rush to FAR to see if there are any potential objections ahead of time; that a new "Mythology" section has been added to the article (summarized from some of the more important information at daughter article Spira (Final Fantasy X)), and the character and setting sections have been reorganized and rewritten along with the "plot" section (which received the most severe rewrite); and that overall, the article has gone from 46 KB to 54 KB long over the last day. This may also raise concerns about content stability, a requirement for any FA, though direct criticisms of the article's status are more important to address right now than stability issues. -Silence 00:16, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

In response to the article's prose, the three of us have gone through the article several times, performing various copyedits and tightening. However, the article clearly needs another set of eyes, especially since the three of us have no strategic distance right now. — Deckiller 00:20, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

I'd like to comment concerning the stability of the article if there are any concerns there. From the time the article achieved FA status on May 10 until yesterday, July 15, there were hardly any changes to it whatsoever. It was only after Silence brought to us concerns that the article's lack of comprehensiveness regarding the plot (something imposed during FAC, despite explanations that FFX's plot and backstory are vast) and illustrations of the various aspects of gameplay through fair-use images might detract from its quality given that it should be an example of everything any article on Wikipedia should be. Silence suggested that -- whatever concerns some editors might have regarding length -- maintaining that example of a comprehensive nature was more important.

With all now said and done, I have to agree, and I don't feel that the article becoming comprehensive where it was lacking before should in any way detract from its quality. In fact, I feel that it is now more deserving than ever of its status as a Featured Article, and is certainly ready to be presented on the front page in a couple of days. Ryu Kaze 01:26, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Well-said. Tony, do you have any comments on the prose of the article? — Deckiller 01:29, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I agree. The article has been quite stable overall; it is only in the last day that it has undergone significant change, hence this last-minute review. The focus of this review should be the article's content, and particularly what areas still need improvement and whether we should delay displaying the article on Wikipedia's main page to let the dust settle/make more fixes. -Silence 01:38, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, it's now on the front page, so the purpose of this mini review is passed. Thanks for hearing us out. Ryu Kaze 00:19, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

The article's length is fine. Raul654 17:00, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

I have to disagree there, I think that 54kb is enormously long and that very few topics warrant such an amount of text. I complained during its FA nomination about the length. One area that I still feel should be cut greatly is the plot. I looked at lots of other FAs on works of literature, plays and films, and found that all summarised their plots in 3-5 paragraphs. This one has 9 very long paragraphs. It would always be possible to argue that a plot section is not comprehensive, because inevitably it can't contain everything. The important thing to remember is that this is an encyclopaedia, which needs to summarise the most important information. Plot summaries are a kind of original research which is tolerated, but they should definitely be kept as concise as possible.

Another major problem I have with the article at the moment is its referencing. About half the 'references' seem to be snippets of dialogue. These can't, surely, be considered reliable sources, and it's not really clear how they back up what they are citing. Worldtraveller 20:38, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

If it's going to be comprehensive, it should touch on all the major plot arcs. And that's all it's doing right now. Touching on those plot arcs. During the FAC, I remember your suggestions of cutting, and — eager to please — I went along with it, despite my concerns. But, really, I don't think those edits were right. These things should always be taken on a case-by-case basis. There should not be a "one size fits all" standard when not all plots are one size. Something I don't think most people in the FAC considered about this game is that it doesn't have as short a story as most films and books. There's a lot there, both in backstory and in what takes place during the game's present.

As for the dialogue references, those are quotes from the game itself. They back up what they're citing in that they offer the verbal illustration of the concept, as seen/read/heard in the game. Those are quite often needed, actually. I'm not sure if you're big into RPGs or not, but there's plenty of people who are going to make story-related edits if they're unfamiliar with certain bits of dialogue that solidify what's being detailed in the article. Ryu Kaze 00:36, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

• This is really starting to become an issue. We have a group of editors trying to get us to expand the plot, and a group trying to get us to reduce it. The current verison is about as close to a compromise as we'll get. The key to consensus in this case is compromise; as an editor during a featured article push/review, all I care about is upholding consensus, which usually involves a compromise. — Deckiller 01:40, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Being terribly honest, I agree that what we have is a compromise. We touch on each major arc and its resolution while supplying sufficient backstory to make sense of what's happening. There's still a lot that's not being brought up, so inclusionists and deletionists alike (not sure if using those words or not is a no-no, but at the moment, I'm not too sure I care given that — like Deckiller — I'm starting to become frustrated with the matter) should be happy.

There's a lot more we could add to the Plot section. We could mention how Seymour's mother is his Final Aeon. We could mention how she sacrificed her life when he was only 10 years old and how his father exiled him for political reasons and that this is why he has such a bleak outlook on the world. We could talk about how Yuna is half-Al Bhed, and how Wakka has long hated the Al Bhed both because the Yevon order speaks badly of them and because his brother, Chappu, died while fighting with an Al Bhed weapon instead of the sword he had given him (which he gives to Tidus during the game). Hell, we probably should be mentioning some of that stuff as it is. We could mention how Wakka's brother was also Lulu's boyfriend. We could mention that one of the Crusaders from Besaid is the guy responsible for Wakka's brother being part in the battle that cost him his life. We could mention Yuna's rival summoner, Donna. We could mention that Auron despises himself because he feels like it's his fault that Braska and Jecht died. We could mention how Tidus' mother was an immature putz and let herself die after she believed Jecht was dead, leaving her dependent child to grow up without both of his parents. We could mention that the reason Seymour's inside Sin at the end of the game is because Sin sucked up his pyreflies after Seymour's third battle with Yuna and her guardians. We could mention that most of Kimahri's people get slaughtered by Seymour because they choose to defend Yuna from him. We could mention that Braska became a summoner in the first place because Sin killed his wife (the sister of the Al Bhed leader, by the way; naturally his marriage to her caused him to be looked down upon by the rest of Yevon, and no one believed that he could defeat Sin). We could mention that Jecht was hard on his son, but that it was because he wanted him to be tough and that he actually loved him more than anything in the world. We could mention how the fayth did nothing to prevent the cycle of Sin's rebirth for 1000 years until Jecht became one of them and through him they came to understand the suffering Sin's existance was causing and that it should stop, whatever might become of them. We could mention that Tidus and Wakka's team won the blitzball tournament that barely gets mentioned.

There's a lot of things we could mention that we haven't, and that's because we kept things to the major story arcs. Seriously, we are being concise. Ryu Kaze 02:07, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Additionally, the comprehensiveness criterion calls for all major aspects of a topic — which includes the story — to be explained. Fancruft is excess, trivial details. We're mentioning the major plot arcs to provide the reader with a sense of overall plot structure and progress, not to bloat the article with "cruft". If a person reads the summary and does not have a gist of the plot and its major arcs, then we fail to meet the comprehensiveness standard. Similarly, if we bloat the article with excess, we give the reader too much to ingest, which also causes us to fail the comprehensiveness standard. We've provided something in the middle, and I'm proud of the balance we've attained here. — Deckiller 02:18, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

In another expansion comment, we have articles like Final Fantasy magic and Final Fantasy items, which provide a general overview of a minor aspect of the series. Granted, it's notable enough, but not so important as to list every item in each game. On the other hand, when we're talking about a full, notable game, we have to cover all major aspects enough. RPGs have lengthy, detailed stories. They are 40 hours long, and are essensially interactive novels. Heck, this game has a 362 488 page-long script in microsoft word (not to mention the fact that the article also details non-script information, such as interviews, scenery, and characterization). I think there's a common impression that RPG stories are "just video game tales" like Mario; this is not the case — some are more encompassing than most trilogies, and most are in a format with several arcs going on at once to provide a variety for both gameplay and story. Hence, more major arcs to mention. — Deckiller 02:24, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

• 54kb is "enormously long"? I thought it was rather average-length, even on the short side. Past FAs on the main page have been as long as 80kb, even approaching 100kb. In any case, conciseness and comprehensiveness, not "length", is what matters for an FA. It should be exactly as long as its content merits; there are no arbitrary, specific limits on how long any article should be.
• By the way, which FAs on fictional works are you referring to that only spend 3 to 5 paragraphs on the actual plot? Calvin and Hobbes spends almost 50 paragraphs on various story elements. The Old Man and the Sea spends 7 paragraphs on its plot, despite being an exceedingly short, straightforward book plot. The Giver, similarly, spends 9 paragraphs on summarizing the plot (and another page discussing the individual characters, plus 3 lengthy paragraphs on "themes"), despite also having a much shorter plotline and less elaborate storyline than Final Fantasy X. Where are these 3-to-5-paragraph summaries? -Silence 02:08, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Silence, those features of The Giver aren't acceptable, they're some of the reasons I just listed it for review above. Hmm, perhaps I should take a look at The Old Man and the Sea. Bishonen | talk 20:31, 23 July 2006 (UTC).

• Also, Ryu Kaze, your list of important storylines we aren't currently mentioning in the article is not even half-finished. There are a huge number of major storylines that aren't even mentioned for one word in the current article. The problem is, although Final Fantasy X is a relatively "short" game, it's also an exceedingly dense one; people have complained about its being such a linear, dialogue/cutscene-heavy game because it's so exceedingly plot-focused, even for Final Fantasy, a series famous for its convoluted plots. The article currently ignores almost the entire middle segment of the game for the sake of brevity, only alluding to one or two of the most significant occurrences. Djose, Moonflow, Guadosalam, Thunder Plains, Macalania, Bikanel, Home, the Calm Lands, Mt. Gagazet, and the airship are virtually ignored; only a couple of words are devoted to the major confrontations with Sin at Kilika and Mushroom Rock, the collection of the individual Aeons is ignored altogether, the running plotline involving the Fayth child is ignored, the optional side-plots are all ignored, and a large number of the most important side-characters in the game (most notably Cid) are never once mentioned. I agree that the current state is an acceptable compromise; it could still use some significant tidying up, but it's neither dramatically overlong nor dramatically overshort. -Silence 02:22, 20 July 2006 (UTC)
  • It is for these reasons why I stopped working on the Xenogears and Xenosaga articles. I know they can never be featured articles, because in order to make the articles comprehensive, I would have to spend at LEAST ten paragaphs on the plot. If it was too short, half of the people would object because it's a confusing summary of a confusing story. If it was too long, people would (obviously) complain that it was too long, regardless of content. If a compromise was made, it would be sacrificing too much on either side to even stand a chance. FFX, fortunately, has the luxury to provide a compromise. — Deckiller 02:33, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

In such a situation, where the story consumes too much space, it is recommended to create a daughter article (like Story of Final Fantasy X) or create subsections. For example I think you'd get a lot less objection to an article with a 9-paragraph plot summary if it is divided into 3 meaningful, 3-paragraph-long sections. Notice that Worldtraveller only objected to the "story" section, not to the other three sections, which add up to be quite lengthy, which also deal with the game's plot ("setting", "characters", and "mythology"). We could do even more trickery like that if we wanted to allay further criticism, like having a 2-to-3-paragraph "history" section explaining the backstory of Zanarkand and Yevon, rather than including that information in the "plot" section at the point in the game where it's revealed. It makes no substantial difference. -Silence 02:39, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, that deception tactic was used with The Wind Waker, which seemed to work. — Deckiller 02:41, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

As it stands, the page already links to Spira (Final Fantasy X), which does a lot that isn't done here, and since the only backstory elements we really saved for revealing in the "Story" section were the biggies, I don't think there's really much cause for concern. And, really, the biggies that are in the Story section are far more compelling when revealed there. While this is an encyclopedia article, the concept of the "Perfect Article" does suggest that it be interesting. Ryu Kaze 14:35, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

• The prose: It's so close, so why not fix silly things like:
  • "Spira is very different from the mainly European-style worlds found in previous Final Fantasy games, being much more closely modeled on Southeast Asia, most notably with respect to its vegetation, topography, architecture and names."
  • "in excess of 7.93 million copies": Ugly expression - what's wrong with "more than"?
  • Remove "Additionally" from the lead - it adds absolutely nothing.

This is a great opportunity to polish it. Please do. Tony 15:44, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the advice. Ryu Kaze 19:01, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

Tony, as always, thank you for your constructive and civil feedback. — Deckiller 05:21, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

• Cover images/infobox. Why does the infobox have four fair-use images? Per WP:FUC #3, we should use as few fair-use images as is absolutely necessary to illustrate the subject, and per #8 we should avoid the decorative use of fair-use images. This is a borderline-copyvio issue, and it's been used to argue that other infoboxes should have multiple images (despite the fact that WP:CVG practice is to use the first or best-selling English-language cover). - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 00:19, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

  In particular, two of these images are identical but for trade dress. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 01:16, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

  Aren't the four images there to illustrate the four different versions? — Deckiller 01:27, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

  Why use four images when one suffices? (Especially given that two of them are nearly identical.) Book articles don't have galleries of fair-use images for each different publishing variation, movie articles don't have galleries of every VHS/DVD cover or every poster, and game articles shouldn't have multiple fair-use images of game covers when one would suffice. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 01:31, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

  I've learned to ignore trivial issues like image/format disputes, because it really takes away from the true meat and potatoes of the article — the stuff I personally care about. Besides, the LAST thing I want is two sides starting an image/format dispute, thus putting we editors between a rock and a hard place. If we don't get any objections to this before this minor review has concluded, the change should be made. And then, if we have a camp forming on the other side, I'll personally nip it in the bud with something aong the lines of Raul's common sense brick. — Deckiller 01:45, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

  Even if the consensus is to use multiple images (and some way of satisfying WP:FUC is devised), the two nearly-identical images need to be dealt with. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 01:48, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

  Honestly, I don't think I can participate in a discussion on image placement and exclusion and all, since it's my achilles' heel on the site. I've never been into image uploading and other image-related issues, except deleting orphaned fairuses. — Deckiller 01:53, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

  If they go, they go, I guess. Personally, I think it's good to illustrate all the different regional covers, but if there's some kind of fair-use infringment at work ,I guess they should go. Of course, this means it'll have to be done on several Final Fantasy pages. Ryu Kaze 02:00, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

  And let us pray people won't be looking to set stability objections. — Deckiller 02:08, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

  I don't think changes that come of a FAC/FAR/FARC can really be considered as making an article unstable. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 02:11, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

  Let's hope not. That would be the most ridiculus argument ever cast: "Your article isn't worthy of being FA because you're taking measures to meet fair-use criteria, which arguably has some bearing on FA criteria in the first place!" Let's just remove them from all the pages if there's no objections and have done with the matter. I don't imagine we'll see any "instability" cries, and if we do, we'll put the common sense brick in a pillowcase and go to town. Ryu Kaze 02:13, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

  ...and maybe get Raul's common sense brick award, as well :-) — Deckiller 02:22, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Usually, one cover is allowed for identification and the preference is to use the one an english speaking audience is most likely to recognize in the marketplace. Combination 09:09, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

• Status. So how do people feel about this? Concerns addressed or do we need to go to FARC? Marskell 21:14, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
  • There's definitely no need for an FARC. The main purpose for this FAR was to make sure the page was up-to-par for its stint on the front page (now come and gone), and we've gotten the fair-use matter taken care of (removed the extra box covers). Everything's fine. Ryu Kaze 01:23, 30 July 2006 (UTC)