Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/The Author's Farce/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by Karanacs 20:50, 17 November 2009 [1].

The Author's Farce[edit]

Nominator(s): Ottava Rima (talk) and NocturneNoir (talk) 01:18, 16 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
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I and NocturneNoir present the first FAC nomination of a long and major project dealing with the plays of Henry Fielding. Though previously neglected, the current work presents a thorough background into the creation, plot, themes, and critical heritage of The Author's Farce, one of Fielding's greatest plays. It has been a pleasure to work on this project and I am happy to present this nominee. Ottava Rima (talk) 01:18, 16 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The image is in the National Portrait Gallery. I linked to their new site which has an uncropped and untouched version (perhaps when they redid the images). The old link would not exist anymore, as it most likely deprecated. Ottava Rima (talk) 22:06, 16 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comments - a few comments from the lead:
  • "about the Goddess Nonsense choosing a husband..." This is what Tony1 calls noun+ing. Better: "about the Goddess Nonsense's choice of a husband" or something similar.
  • "Through the use of a play within a play,.." - perhaps link to "play within a play" since it is a dramatic device. Also, it might help to move this into the first paragraph, as I had to puzzle for a while over "Although rejected by one theatre, the play is eventually put on at another during the third act", as at first I thought perhaps it was meant that happened in reality before I read on and it became clearer.
  • "Additionally, having the Little Theatre..." - personally, I think the "additionally" can be dropped as unnecessary, and it weakens the impact of the second sentence by making its contents seem less important effects.

—mattisse (Talk) 15:55, 17 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I made three changes. See if this clarifies the second point: "Although rejected by one theatre, the play becomes a play within a play when it is eventually put on at another theatre during the third act." Ottava Rima (talk) 16:37, 17 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Yes. During the middle of the third act of another play. Or was it tacked on at the end? —mattisse (Talk) 17:09, 17 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
See if this helps: Reality - Fielding had a play that was rejected. The Author's Farce uses that as part of the plot. Fiction - Luckless has a play that was rejected called The Pleasures of the Town. Act 1 - writing the play. Act 2 - play is rejected. Act 3 - play is put on within The Author's Farce. The third Act is about Luckless putting on The Pleasures of the Town, which is interrupted at the end with word that he is really king of some distant land. Ottava Rima (talk) 17:56, 17 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support, excellent article. Ironholds (talk) 01:38, 19 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • MoS comment (the type people complain about on the FAC talk page): in the cast section, hyphens should be spaced endashes per WP:DASH. Mm40 (talk) 15:19, 24 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
    • I've attempted a fix; let me know if this was incorrect. (I'll admit to knowing nothing about MOS:DASH right now; it confuses me immensely...) ɳOCTURNEɳOIR talk // contribs 16:01, 24 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
      • Yes, it's now correct. Thanks, Mm40 (talk) 16:25, 24 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comments - sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. (I took the liberty of putting your OCLC numbers in the OCLC template and adding two missing periods.) Ealdgyth - Talk 16:58, 25 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I didn't even know we had an OCLC template now. Blah. I should pay more attention to these things. Ottava Rima (talk) 17:12, 25 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - with comments. Looks great. ceranthor 22:06, 30 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • However, he is given horrible advice and the play is rejected by the local theatre. - advice from whom?
I think I clarified - all of the characters offer advice. Ottava Rima (talk) 22:13, 30 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • ...Signore Opera, among others.[17] Eventually, she chooses Signor Opera, a foreign, castrato opera singer, as her favourite, after he sings an aria about money. In response, Mrs. Novel claims that she loved Signior Opera and died giving birth to his child.[18] - different spellings?
Hahahahaha. I fixed it. :) Ottava Rima (talk) 22:13, 30 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • The character Signior Opera, the image of the favoured castrato singer within the puppet show, mocks the foreigners that would perform as singers along with the audiences that accepted them. - again, different spelling?
It should all be Signior right now. :) Ottava Rima (talk) 22:13, 30 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Noting that two of the supports here are only partial (images and 2c). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:46, 8 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

And the oppose is amusing. Don't forget that. :) Ottava Rima (talk) 19:53, 8 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose Fowler&fowler«Talk» 22:44, 11 November 2009 (UTC) I'm afraid the article falls far short of meeting criterion 1(a). Here are some examples:[reply]

Lead paragraph
  • (Sentence 1:) "The play was Fielding's first success and was written as a response to Theatre Royal, Drury Lane's rejection of his previous works."
    • "Response" can mean "reply" or it can mean "reaction." In the former sense, a sentence such as "Das Kapital was written as a response to the theories of Adam Smith," is entirely appropriate. But that sense cannot be employed with "rejection of his previous works," since a satirical play doesn't counter anything in a rejection. We can use "response" in the sense of a reaction (or stimulus-response), but the stimulus there is the anger, shame, humiliation, or pain experienced as a result of the rejection. (Another playwright, for example, could have been relieved by the rejection (feeling the pressure to be off)). Please rephrase (as long as it is consistent with sources.) This, however, is meaningless. (Clarified. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 15:28, 12 November 2009 (UTC))[reply]
    • Besides, one earlier play, Love in Several Masques, if its link is accurate, was in fact performed in Theatre Royal. Please amend statement accordingly.
    • Needs to be "Drury Lane's rejections of (some of) his previous works."
  • (Sentence 2:) "The first and second acts describe Harry Luckless's attempts at romance and writing plays to make money."
    • (Incorrect and ambivalent.) If "romance" is meant in the sense of love, the sentence should read "The first and second acts describe Harry Luckless's attempts at finding romance and writing plays,"
    • or, if by "romance," a literary work is meant, "The first and second acts describe Harry Luckless's attempts at writing (both) romances and plays."
    • or, if by "romance," lovemaking is implied, then say, "The first and second acts describe Harry Luckless's attempts at romance and at writing plays," though this last version is too ambiguous for an encyclopedia.
    • "to make money" is ambivalent and vague. Not clear if it applies to romance, to writing plays, or to both. Please make more precise: as in "writing plays to earn a livelihood," "writing plays to make quick money," etc. If, for example, the former is meant, please say, "... attempts both at romance and at writing plays to earn a livelihood."
  • (Sentence 3:) "In the second act, he finishes a puppet theatre play titled "The Pleasures of the Town" about the Goddess Nonsense's choice of a husband from allegorical representatives of common theatre and literary genres.
    • I am assuming by "finishes" you mean "completes writing." Why not simply say, "In the second act, he writes a puppet theater play ...?" Or was the puppet theater play begun in the first act? (If so, why weren't we told.)
  • "(Still sentence 3:) the Goddess Nonsense's choice of a husband from allegorical representatives of common theatre and literary genres."
    • "choice of the husband?" You mean "... of a husband."
    • In any case, it most likely is not about the choice, but rather about the selection. In other words, say, "... about Goddess Nonsense's selection of a husband ..."
    • Too much jargon in the sentence.
    • To improve the prose, the sentence is best broken up, as in: "In the second act, the protagonist writes a puppet theater play parodying some common literary and theater genres. Titled, "The Pleasures of the Town," the play centres on the Goddess Nonsense's selection of a ..."
  • (Sentence 4:) "Although rejected by one theatre, the play becomes a play within a play when it is eventually put on at another theatre during the third act."
    • I doubt you mean "Although." Please say, "After being rejected by one theatre, the play becomes ..."
    • There is no need for "eventually" if it is staged in the very next act.
  • (Sentence 5:) "Instead of using puppets, the puppet characters are portrayed by actual actors, and the play ends with a merging of the play's and the puppet show's realities."
    • "Instead of using puppets" is both wrong and redundant. Say simply, "The puppet characters are now portrayed by human actors ..."
  • (Still sentence 5:) "play ends with a merging of the play's and the puppet show's realities."
    • What does this mean? Please clarify.

These are just the five sentences of the lead paragraph. I'm sorry the prose needs drastic reworking. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 22:44, 11 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Note - per usual, the above statements will be ignored as inappropriate. Ottava Rima (talk) 22:51, 11 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
It says "In the second act, he finishes a puppet theatre play titled The Pleasures of the Town about the Goddess Nonsense's choice of a husband from allegorical representatives of common theatre and literary genres.", not "the Goddess Nonsense's choice of the husband from allegorical representatives of common theatre and literary genres." Curious why there is that difference. ɳOCTURNEɳOIR talk // contribs 23:19, 11 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
[2] Even the 31 October version says "a husband". Perhaps this should be brought up at WT:FAC like the last time such problems like this have happened regarding this user's FAC posts. Ottava Rima (talk) 23:26, 11 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Regardless, I've enacted a few changes. Take a look, Fowler. ɳOCTURNEɳOIR talk // contribs 23:28, 11 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, you are right. It is actually "a husband" in my Sentence 3 above. My mistake. Have struck. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 23:34, 11 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
[3] It was originally added in as "a husband", and, after checking through all diffs, it was never altered to "the husband". Ottava Rima (talk) 23:30, 11 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
To NN. It has improved a little, but "choice of husband" is still poor, if not incorrect. Also, one play was staged by TR,DL in 1728. Then there is the rest of the article. I'm happy to add some more sample sentences from other sections. The main point for me is that the prose doesn't flow (yet). Fowler&fowler«Talk» 23:41, 11 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
An attempt to address some other comments:
  • "The response (as reaction) is not to the rejection, but rather to the shame (or humiliation or pain) of rejection. Please rephrase (as long as it is consistent with sources.) This, however, is meaningless. Pretty sure the shame of rejection is implied here; clarifying would result in The play was Fielding's first success and was written as a response to the shame he felt because of Theatre Royal, Drury Lane's rejection of his previous works is wordy, likely inaccurate, and sounds of original research. — NocturneNoir (23:48, 11 November 2009), — (continues after insertion below.)
I don't mean you have to be explicit. There are ways of finessing it. For example, "Born of anger felt at Theatre Royal, Drury Lane's rejections of two previous works, "The Author's Farce" was Fielding's first success." or, "The Author's Farce—its writing triggered by Theatre Royal's rejections of two previous plays—was Fieldings first success." I don't have the source(s) here so I can't say for sure what will work, but I can't imagine an English language source saying, "... was written in response to the rejection ..." Fowler&fowler«Talk» 03:41, 12 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The first and second acts describe Harry Luckless's attempts at romance and writing plays to make money." - I believe "romance" is a general term encompassing both love and lovemaking (though not romances as a type of play). "to make money" is also purposefully vague. Luckless needs money, period; short-term and long-term are both necessary. — NocturneNoir (23:48, 11 November 2009), — (continues after insertion below.)
Well, acts of a play don't really "describe." Again, there are many ways to skin the cat. You could say, "The first two acts present protagonist Harry Luckless looking for romance and writing plays to make money." etc. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 03:41, 12 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • I am assuming by "finishes" you mean "completes writing." Why not simply say, "In the second act, he writes a puppet theater play ...?" Or was the puppet theater play begun in the first act? (If so, why weren't we told.) Not sure why this is relevant at all. Seems to give undue weight to when the writing began. — NocturneNoir (23:48, 11 November 2009), — (continues after insertion below.)
OK, let's not worry about it for now. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 03:41, 12 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Too much jargon in the sentence. This isn't Simple Wikipedia.
  • It has improved a little, but "choice of husband" is still poor, if not incorrect. What do you suggest? My strong suit isn't English (in fact, it's likely Math), and I'm at a loss for a better wording. — NocturneNoir (23:48, 11 November 2009), — (continues after insertion below.)
Do you have the actual quote from the source? If so, I can take a stab at paraphrasing it. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 03:41, 12 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Would you mind copyediting the prose for anything you notice? It seems that many of the quick-fixes you suggested (such as "Drury Lane's rejections of (some of) his previous works.") are quite appropriate and entirely correct. It seems to me (and I've seen this happen at both GAN and FAC) that a reviewer, such as yourself, may find it easier to just enact the changes instead of commenting here, waiting for the article's nominator to fix it, and then checking again to see if the fix has been enacted.
Regardless, thanks for the review; I already have taken a look at the prose to the best of my ability and do think it meets 1(a) (and would therefore disagree with you that the prose doesn't flow). I feel many of the points you mentioned are extremely precise, and, in my opinion, overly so. Though I welcome such comments, I feel you're checking for brilliant prose while merely professional prose will suffice. ɳOCTURNEɳOIR talk // contribs 23:48, 11 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Note - Fielding's first play was staged by the Theatre Royal. Fielding's next two plays were denied. All of the works describe the situation as them rejecting plays. The language corresponds to the sources used. Ottava Rima (talk) 23:52, 11 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

(unindent) Here are the first three sentences of section 1:

  • (Sentence 1): Same issues as Sentence 1 above.
  • (Sentence 2): It was advertised as being rehearsed in the 18 March 1730 Daily Post and in the 21 March 1730 Weekly Medley and Literary Journal.
    • (Ambiguous: it's not being rehearsed in the newspaper) Replace with, "In the 18 March 1730 ...., it was advertised as being rehearsed."
  • (Sentence 3): "The Daily Post ran advertisements for its opening in its 23 and 26 March publications, noting that the play would contain a puppet show."
    • You mean in its "23 and 26 March editions."

I think you guys will honestly be better off working on the article without the FAC pressure, nursing it some more, and then resubmitting. I will be delighted to support it if it is well written. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 23:53, 11 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

To NN again. OK, I'll edit the lead tonight. See if you guys like it. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 00:00, 12 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I would prefer you do not, because your edits to pages before have added in original research, faulty syntax, imprecise language, and many other problems. My response below verifies these problems, as well as multiple FACs in which you have done the same thing and, in the end, your opinion was ignored as inappropriate. Ottava Rima (talk) 00:01, 12 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Edition is a term that implies the same work changed or altered in some manner. Publication implies independent works. Also, "It was advertised" is the phrase connected to "in the" per Subject vs Object syntax. The word "as" means that the "being rehearsed" is a modifier of the "advertised". Ottava Rima (talk) 00:01, 12 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Have it your way. The August * edition of the New York Times vs. August * publication of the New York Times. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 00:41, 12 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I've asked Tony1 for clarification with regards to prose. ɳOCTURNEɳOIR talk // contribs 00:32, 12 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Great! Fowler&fowler«Talk» 00:41, 12 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
To NN: I'm afraid there are unacceptable levels of paraphrasing errors in the article. I have created a section Inaccurate paraphrasing of the talk page detailing some in the first paragraph of the first section. Please have the paraphrasing (with respect to the source) vetted by an uninvolved copy-editor. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 10:36, 17 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Comment The article begins The Author's Farce and the Pleasures of the Town, a play by Henry Fielding, was first performed on 30 March 1730 at the Little Theatre, Haymarket.
It should begin The Author's Farce and the Pleasures of the Town is a play by English playwright Henry Fielding and was first performed on 30 March 1730 at the Little Theatre, Haymarket.
The first sentnece needs to state the obvious, not in passing, but as the main topic. We also need to know the country. Amandajm (talk) 08:19, 13 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Done. ɳOCTURNEɳOIR talk // contribs 09:43, 13 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Nearly there, and covers the ground, but needs a good prose edit, and more linking. I did some changes to the first few paras, but gave up without getting to basic things like "land-lady". WP:ENGVAR needs attention. I think I changed these, but please note a "production" of a play implies at the least some cast changes -you don't have four "productions" on consecutive nights. There were far too many "showing"s, a word that should only be used as a last resort when "performances" pile up. "revival" is a useful word here. Bantam (city) in the East Indies, of hen fame & where the English had a trading post from 1603, should be linked to & explained. Generally there are a number of missing links to literary terms that won't obvious to all readers. Is it the case that the play has not been seen in public since the 1730s? Johnbod (talk) 23:45, 15 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I tried to follow the specific term used in the source when possible. By the way, I do not have any sources that say that the "Land of Bantam" is the same as Bantam city or has any connection. "not been seen in public since the 1730s" - from the page: "The last documented non-puppet version of the play was given on 28 March 1748 by Theophilus Cibber as a two act companion piece for a benefit show. The Pleasures of the Town portion was performed outside London throughout the century, including a show in Norwich during 1749, 15 shows at Norwich during the 1750s, and a production at York during 1751–1752 theatre season. There were even benefit shows, including the third act, performed in Dublin on 19 December 1763 and in Edinburgh during 1763." Ottava Rima (talk) 01:19, 16 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
It's in Woods Introduction: "Bantam in Java had long been considered an exotic place of incredible ..." - I can't read the full thing but google search picks that up. But you don't need it anyway - Bantam would have been as familiar a name as say Kuwait today. Johnbod (talk) 01:34, 16 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Hmm, okay. I don't have Woods's introduction, only summaries of what he said. Interesting how no one mentioned that later. Ah well. I'll link. Ottava Rima (talk) 01:41, 16 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The link for Bantam is not the city, which was the capital of the Kingdom, but rather Sultanate of Banten. A better reference that this meaning is intended is footnote 2 on p. 285 in the Lockwood edition (2004). I have copied most of the footnote to a section of talk page of the article. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 07:43, 16 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
As invited, I've looked at the rewritten "Background" section, which I've tweaked a little & renamed "Performance history", which the great bulk of it is. I'm ok with the prose here, & don't think it gives too much detail per SV below, though I agree it is not the most interesting reading. But moving on to the next prose after the cast list, I hit issues again. The first sentences are:

Although Fielding predominantly wrote five-act plays, The Author's Farce is a three-act play. The beginning of the play depicts Harry Luckless's attempts at romance with Harriot, daughter of his land-lady Mrs Moneywood, in addition to his attempts at earning money. Although the work begins in the same manner as Fielding's previous romance-themed comedies, it quickly transitions into a different type of play that emphasises the literary and theatrical establishment. [my bolds]

-some specific points already raised above. The first sentence invites the comment "and so?". Is he trying to marry or seduce the girl, or both? "Landlady" is one word (as it is later), he is attempting to earn money. Is "manner" making a stylistic or genre point? Can't "transitions" just be "turns". Is "emphasises" all it does in respect of "the literary and theatrical establishment" - doesn't it at least "deal" with them, or something more informative? The "horrible advice" later is a horrible choice of word. Since little concrete is said on the themes of the play, there should be some quotations from it to illustrate them. Johnbod (talk) 20:20, 17 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I applied some fixes. The first sentence is only declarative and factual - this is a plot summary section not an interpretative section. "manner" is a genre point. As for quoting the play, I don't know what you would want to quote - most fiction tries to reduce plot sections and the plot is from a third party source's interpretation of what happens. What is wrong with "horrible advice"? The advice, according to multiple sources, was very bad. Ottava Rima (talk) 20:26, 17 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
  • Not thrilled with the writing; I've copy-edited the top as an example. Lots of repetition, especially of "the play". Please check my "as far away as", which was a hunch. Tony (talk) 14:57, 17 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

PS I don't like my "it" in this revised sentence: "The version was created for Theatre Royal after it suffered from the Actor Rebellion of 1733." Can't work out what to do with it. Perhaps if the previous version hadn't introduced the notion of a theatre's suffering from a rebellion (huh?), it might have contained the solution. Tony (talk) 15:09, 17 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment. I'm wondering about the level of detail in the background section—when it ran, alongside what else, and so on. It's quite hard to get through. SlimVirgin talk|contribs 15:39, 17 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The different formats are key to showing the evolution of the show, as it was not a piece like The Beggar's Opera that had mostly large runs with little change in format. Sometimes it was paired (popularly or unpopularly), sometimes not, and sometimes only a tiny portion was shown. I don't know how else to really discuss it. Ottava Rima (talk) 16:11, 17 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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