Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Percy Grainger/archive1

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by SandyGeorgia 05:03, 27 May 2011 [1].

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Percy Grainger

Percy Grainger (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

• Featured article candidates/Percy Grainger/archive1

Nominator(s): Brianboulton (talk) 23:42, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

As a composer and performer, Percy Grainger was a bit of an oddity who ultimately, perhaps, delivered less than he at one time promised. He was innovative and original, yet most of his musical ideas failed to catch on; he tends to be remembered for relatively trivial works such as the eminently whistlable "Country Gardens". As to Percy's private obsessions... well, the less said the better. I've done my best to do him justice, with the help of a very thorough peer review (for which many thanks) and some early assistance from Jappalang in the sourcing and selection of images. If more needs to be done, please speak up; I look forward to your comments. Brianboulton (talk) 23:42, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

Comments This article clearly deserves to be an FA, but some of the prose seems a little bit marginal to me I'm afraid:

• "... Percy Grainger, was an Australian-born composer, arranger and pianist. In the course of a long career he was an innovative performer and composer who played a prominent role in the revival of interest in British folk music. He also made many adaptations of other composers' works." That seems really awkward to me; he was a composer who was a composer? "Made many adaptations of"?

• "... who became a frequent attender at his London recitals". The proper word is probably "attendee", but why not "who frequently attended his London recitals"?

• "The visit was not a success, howver".

• "Before coming to London Grainger had composed numerous Kipling settings ...". That implies that you're writing this article in London. "Before going to London ...".

• "Grieg was greatly impressed with Granger's playing, and later wrote that the Australian was ...". How could he have written it earlier?

• "In 1905 Grainger had acquired a Danish girlfriend ...". Why "had acquired"? Acquired in any case sounds rather mechanical.

• "... with high school, summer-school and college students." Why is "summer-school" hyphenated but "high school" isn't?

Malleus Fatuorum 02:37, 21 May 2011 (UTC)

Thanks, Malleus, for these comments. All your points have been addressed; I blush for my clumsiness. Brianboulton (talk) 18:29, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

We're none of us perfect Brian, not even me. :-) Malleus Fatuorum 17:43, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

Support. Malleus Fatuorum 17:43, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

Thanks. I will bear your imperfection in mind. Brianboulton (talk) 08:41, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

Image and Media Review The article contains 13 image files and one sound file. The image files are all freely licensed, mostly by being old enough to be PD in the US or else as free recent images of places in Grainger's life. The music file is of a piece old enough to be PD, by a US military group, so both the composition and its performance are PD. I did not yet have a chance to read the article in depth. Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 03:40, 21 May 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for the image/sound file review. I hope you played the sound file -it's quite good fun. There's a couple more in the Exernal links. Brianboulton (talk) 18:29, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

Comments from Jappalang

Lede

• "... prominent role in the revival of interest in British folk music."

  When was this revival?

  Added into lead and briefly into text. Brianboulton (talk) 23:07, 21 May 2011 (UTC)

Family background

• "He won professional recognition by designing the Princes Bridge ..."

  Should it not be "recognition for his design" or "recognition for designing"? "By designing" makes it seem that he is known just because he was the architect of the bridge (not because of any qualities that the bridge might have or serve).

Concert pianist

• "I thought I was about to die;"

  Die from ecstasy or from some other acts during their encounters? The quote is a bit too vauge to be certain what gave him this thought?

  It's clear from the sourse that Grainger was describing his first sexual climax. I have added a bit which hopefully explains this.

  It feels a bit strange he did not get some phobia of sex from this (no joy from his first orgasm), but if that is the case... Jappalang (talk) 14:16, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

• ... a role Grainger was not prepared to fulfil."

  Not prepared or not willing?

Emergent composer

• "Their plans were thwarted by Grieg's sudden death in September 1907, but on the basis of this relatively brief acquaintance Grainger championed Grieg's music for the rest of his life."

  I am not seeing a contradiction ("but") between the thwarting of Grieg and Grainger's plans and Grainger's championship of Grieg's work based on their acquaintance.

  Suggestion: "Their plans were thwarted by Grieg's sudden death in September 1907. Their relatively brief acquaintance left an impact on Grainger, and he championed Grieg's music for the rest of his life."

• File:GraingerandGrieg1907.jpg: I suggest uploading this to Wikipedia instead; it is quite likely a German photographer's work (Grieg's home) and if the photograph was published earlier in Germany or was published in Tapper's book without the photographer's permission (possibly Grainger let the publisher print his copy), it would be regarded as a German work (the 70-year pma comes into play).

  I have uploaded per your suggestion. Brianboulton (talk) 23:07, 21 May 2011 (UTC)

• "He had resolved that he would to establish himself..."?

• "In 1908 he had obtained ...": seems redundant?

• "... five of Grainger's works were performed to great public acclaim,; the band of thirty guitars and mandolins for the performance of "Fathers and Daughters" creating created a particular impression.": eliminate noun plus -ing phrasing.

• "In 1905 Grainger had acquired ... ": seems redundant?

Departure for America

• "... with Thomas Beecham conducting."

  Should this not be "... under Thomas Beecham's conducting." or "under the conductorship of Thomas Beecham."?

  I've looked at this again. Although Beecham was one of the festival's conductors he may not actually have conducted the concerto, so I have reworded accordingly. Brianboulton (talk) 23:07, 21 May 2011 (UTC)

• "The reason for this abrupt departure, Bird explains, was that Grainger saw his future as Australia's first noteworthy composer, and thus felt a responsibility to avoid being killed."

  Is this Bird's opinion or Grainger's explanation (in a letter or diary)? I think the source should be explicit. This thought seems a bit egoistic and I think it would certainly befit the accusation of cowardice laid down on Grainger by Legge if it was Grainger's purpose. It is also a factor in another of my concern below.

  I have added to this section, quoting Bird's exact words. He does not say where Grainger gave this explanation. So I have made it "according to Bird..."

  I also think that a brief statement about British drafts for WWI should be here (Canadian and Australian forces are part of and under the command of the British Empire). Younger (or less knowledgeable) readers might wonder why an Australian would be decried by British men for fleeing to America.

  The sources do not address this issue, though from my school history studies I know that conscription didn't begin in England until 1916, so Grainger was not in imminent danger of being drafted. I suppose the pressure on young(ish) men to volunteer might have been awkward for him, but establishing these points would surely amount to OR. I'm not sure that, on the basis of what's available, I can say much more. Brianboulton (talk)

  Yes, without a source to explain why they treated him as such would be OR. Mayhaps someone knows a source that describes the general attitude at that time (or even better a commentary on Percy's nationality to his conduct).

• "On 9 June 1917, after America's entry into the war, Grainger enlisted as a bandsman in the Coast Artillery Corps of the US Army."

  Why did he do this after running away from Britain? Could he not have joined up as a Royal Army Musician or such, or were American army musicians simply "safer"?

  "Running away" is surely interpretive. Again, no answers to your questions are provided in the sources. We can surmise that he felt some sense of duty to his adopted country, or as you suggest, that he made a "safe" choice. But it's guesswork. Brianboulton (talk) 23:07, 21 May 2011 (UTC)

• "The piece became instantly popular,; with sheet music sales quickly breaking broke many publishing records.": eliminate noun plus -ing phrasing.

• "On 3 June 1918 he became a naturalised American citizen."

  The US Army accepts foreigners?

  I'm sure they did; Britain was certainly happy to do so in wartime. Grainger had registered his intention to apply for US citizenship in 1915 - I've added this into the text. Brianboulton (talk) 23:07, 21 May 2011 (UTC)

Career zenith

• "This was to be his permanent home for the remainder of his life.": Redundancies

• "She became particularly troubled by rumours that her relationship with her son was incestuous."

  I think the footnote to this should be moved into the main body. Such a controversial issue should be explained/clarified than glossed over (why there were such rumours and who).

  I have moved the explanation into the text. Brianboulton (talk) 23:07, 21 May 2011 (UTC)

• With Rose's death, a question rose to my mind: What about George? Did he have any interactions with Percy after Rose's death? Did Percy ever meet his half-sibling in England?

  There is no information that Grainger ever met his supposed half-sibling. What is your source for supposing that this child was male and called "George"? Brianboulton (talk) 23:07, 21 May 2011 (UTC)

  Sorry, I was actually asking about Percy's father, John, instead of "George" (Percy's original first name sort of stuck in my mind); the last we heard of John was his supplementing the mother and son's income, but nothing else. I raise the matter of Percy's half-sibling as another matter of curiosity—Percy was in England for quite some time and one wonders if he might have tried to find something about his relations there. Jappalang (talk) 14:16, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

Traveller

• "In Norway he stayed with Delius at the latter's Norwegian summer home.": Redundant

Innovator

• '"Love Verses from The Song of Solomon"' (also appearing in Music section): should this not be '"Love Verses" from The Song of Solomon'?

  The title of the piece is as I have written it. Brianboulton (talk) 23:30, 21 May 2011 (UTC)

Postwar decline

• "... his stepdaughter Elsie Bristow in April 1951, ..."

  It is rather surprising to suddenly read he had a stepdaughter (we were not told of Ella Strom's status before her meeting with Grainger). I think the footnote should be moved into the main body (possibly where Ella is introduced).

  I have done this. Brianboulton (talk) 23:07, 21 May 2011 (UTC)

• "... he deposited in a bank a parcel containing that contained an essay and photographs relating related to his sex life, ...": reduce the noun plus -ing structure, are both the essay and photographs related to (about) his sex life?

Last years

• "By 1957 ...; in 1957 ...": seems a bit repetitive

• "... he informed Ella Bristow ...": who?

Music

• "Despite his conservatory training ..."

  Would "Despite his education (or training) in a conservatory" be more correct here?

• "Indeed, he would reflect ..."

  This seems a bit dramatic.

Legacy

• "... did not generate disciples;"

  I think "attract" would be better than "generate"; I feel those who would follow his music do it out of their own volition, and are not produced.

• "... had been scornfully rejected ...": one of those bias terms, unless as a quote

• "... before the mid-1970s,; being it was initially regarded as evidence either of an over-large ego or of extreme eccentricity.": eliminate noun plus -ing

Assessment

• "... that included originality, and complexity as well as and beauty.": redundancies

• "... he ranked himself equal ninth ...": redundant

• "His inability to be recognised ..."

  Would "failure to be recognised" be better? "Inability" (and the way it is phrased) concludes (an outside opinion) he lacked the ability to do this; it seems third parties are not unanimous on this.

• "More recently, an increase ..."

  This is imprecise (needs a period or range; define which period there is an interest). In 1 or 2 years, would it be an increase, decrease or standstill?

• "Louis Pabst, Grainger's first piano teacher, believed that his pupil's talents as a painter equalled his pianistic abilities; Grainger himself commented that "I never had more talent for music than for painting"."

  This (his painting skills) is rather sudden (see also below) and could be confusing. It is ambiguous as to whether the teacher was praising or insulting the pupil.

  I have removed this, since we don't need to make the point twice (see below). Brianboulton (talk) 23:07, 21 May 2011 (UTC)

• "Brian Allison, a former Grainger Museum curator, has speculated that had his father's influence not been removed, "Percy Aldridge Grainger may today be remembered as one of Australia's leading painters and designers, who just happened to have a latent talent as a pianist and composer"."

  We are only now told Percy had talent as a painter. Nowhere earlier had this been explored, and without support from others, Allison's speculation does not seem worthy of note.

  I have written a linking sentence into the "Childhood" section, dealing with Percy's early flowering as an artist. Brianboulton (talk) 23:07, 21 May 2011 (UTC)

Recordings

• "In 1995 Chandos Records undertook the compilation of compiled a complete recorded edition of ...": redundant

An interesting read of an interesting man so far; Brian is doing a good job as usual. Jappalang (talk) 04:11, 21 May 2011 (UTC)

Thank you for this detailed review. I have already acknowledged your help with images selection. I believe I have addressed all your points; where I have not commented, I have adopted your suggestions. I do have a slight problem wth the "was he/wasn't he a coward" issue, but I feel I have gone as far as the sources allow. Brianboulton (talk) 23:07, 21 May 2011 (UTC)

Support: My remaining points above are likely minor, un-actionable, or misplaced. This is a comprehensive article on an interesting fellow indeed. Jappalang (talk) 14:16, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

Thanks indeed. I will see if anything can be done with your outstanding minor concerns; at least I can incorporate the date of John Grainger's death. Brianboulton (talk) 18:29, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

Support – I took part in the peer review and all my (very minor) quibbles were dealt with there to my satisfaction. In my judgment (with the caveat that I am inexpert on anything to do with images and their permitted use) this article meets all the FA criteria. It is well proportioned, well balanced, impeccably researched and referenced, and a pleasure to read. Tim riley (talk) 12:21, 21 May 2011 (UTC)

Thanks Tim for your kind comments, support and help, as always Brianboulton (talk) 18:29, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

Source review - spotchecks not done

• Be consistent in how multiple authors are notated
• Use a consistent formatting for Grainger Museum references
• Need page numbers for multi-page PDFs
• When using titles to disambiguate refs, be consistent in whether you include quotation marks or not
• Be consistent in using either UK or U.K. Nikkimaria (talk) 20:21, 21 May 2011 (UTC)

  All above addressed. Brianboulton (talk) 00:02, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

Support: I took part in the peer review and most of my queries were dealt with there. It has improved since then and I am very happy to support, although I am by no means a music expert. Re-reading just threw up a couple of points, which do not affect my support.

• "to the extent that it was thought by his tutors that art rather than music might be his future." Possibly better as "to the extent that his tutors thought his future lay in art rather than music."
• Presumably, the Hoch conservatory was one of the best, but this is never made explicit. Otherwise, his mother's choice seems a little random. --Sarastro1 (talk) 16:06, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for the support. I have adopted your suggested wording, slightly tweaked, re his artistic future. The Hoch was chosen on a reccomendation from the professor of piano at Melbourne Conservatory; I have included that, too. Brianboulton (talk) 18:29, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

Support I participated in the peer review, and did a prose review of the article. My concerns were addressed at that time.--Wehwalt (talk) 11:21, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

Thanks. Your PR help was much appreciated. Brianboulton (talk) 16:36, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

Leaning support with further comments. Nikkimaria (talk) 16:29, 26 May 2011 (UTC)

• What is a "society pianist"? A "pastiche"?
  • A society pianist is a pianist who performs in the private houses of the rich and fashionable. I believe this meaning is clear from the text in the "London" section. A pastiche is an imitation of another's style.
• Consistency checking needed. For example, you use both "antisemitic" and "anti-semitic", both "Princes Bridge" and "Prince's Bridge", "Granger and "Grainger", etc
  • I think the correct form is "anti-Semitic", and I have now adopted this throughout. "Prince's" and "Granger" were typos.
• Does the Conservatorium have an article?
  • No. I don't think the place exists now - possibly absorbed into the music department of Melbourne University long ago, but I don't have information on this.
• "always held the virtues of the Australian character in high regard" - what does this mean?
  • I'm not quite sure what you are asking; the meaning seems clear enough. Are you asking that I specify the virtues Grainger admired?
• "his famous orchestral rhapsody" - title/link?
  • The WP article links to Grainger's setting. There is no link to Delius's orchestral rhapsody of the same name.
• Don't wikilink things already included in hatnotes, as for Grainger Museum
  • OK
• "the Graingers made a long visit to England in 1936, during which Grainger made" - "made...made" is somewhat repetitive.
  • Reworded

Nikkimaria (talk) 16:29, 26 May 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for the comments and the sharp eyes. Brianboulton (talk) 00:00, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.