Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Nguyen Chanh Thi/archive1

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Karanacs 16:15, 20 October 2010 [1].

Nguyen Chanh Thi[edit]

Featured article candidates/Nguyen Chanh Thi/archive1

Nominator(s): YellowMonkey (new photo poll) 23:52, 10 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This fellow was a general in South Vietnam. He tried to overthrow Ngo Dinh Diem in 1960 and failed, so he went into exile in Cambodia. In November 1963, Diem was deposed and killed and came back. Over the next 15 months, he was involved in 5 coups, suppressing or helping to make them successful. He was appointed military prime minister in June 1965, but declined strategically, hoping to take over at a later time when things were more helpful, but before he could Prime Minister Nguyen Cao Ky decided to sack him, resulting in riots and mutiny in South Vietnam for three months. Ky eventually prevailed and Thi was deported to the US. The New York Times called him a "coup specialist". Article passed MILHIST A-review last month YellowMonkey (new photo poll) 23:52, 10 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - no dab links, no dead external links. Nikkimaria (talk) 00:04, 11 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Pre-emptive comment for Fifelfoo The only Tucker ref is a list of unit commanders that doesn't have a specific author YellowMonkey (new photo poll) 05:52, 11 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: Why would YellowMonkey need to pre-empt me? Because at the moment nasty finnicky citation project, aka Fifelfoo, is reviewing the citation of tertiary sources in detail due to some discussions of the inappropriate use of Tertiary sources to support material that should be sourced from secondary research on some other boards. In relation to this article: ABC-CLIO is a great source. They'd be good for the data of commanders of a particular unit for biographical detail. Have you considered adding the article name to the footnotes section as well as the page reference if the article is indexed alphabetically, "Commanders of 1 Div 1 Corp ARVN" is my guess for the article title :). This doesn't appear to be highly necessary because of the low level of reliance upon the Tertiary (it is one cite for direct fact only). 1c/2c looks good. Checked this when it went through MILHIST A Class in September. Fifelfoo (talk) 07:08, 11 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Support pending the following (Checked for 1abcde, 2abc, 4) Fifelfoo (talk) 04:20, 12 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
1a Too many parenthetical clauses or too many clauses or confusing clause order, split up into smaller sentences: Sent:"Thi joined the French Army at 17,…" ; Sent:"In 1946, full-scale conflict…" ; Sent:"In the meantime, the State of Vietnam remained unstable…" ; Sent:"In 1960, Thi was the commander of the…" ;

Could you explain this in a less abstract way please? YellowMonkey (new photo poll) 05:16, 12 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, the sentences starting with those phrases have problems. They have either too many clauses, so I couldn't follow the train of thought to the end of the sentence without difficulty. Or they have too many parenthetical clauses, so I found my train of thought was wandering off in the middle, and having difficulty finding the original train of thought after the digression. Or the clause order is confusing, they jump about in space, or time, or presentation of subject, or who the subject / object of the sentence is as the clauses raise other issues. If you split these sentences into smaller units, they'll be easier to follow for the reader. Fifelfoo (talk) 06:08, 12 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

1a Better verb than under required, "who had declared independence under the Democratic Republic of Vietnam (DRV)"

changed YellowMonkey (new photo poll) 05:16, 12 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

1a VNA not parenthetically introduced; bad plural "VNA paratroop units"

Changed first. Didn't understand what you mean in the second part YellowMonkey (new photo poll) 05:16, 12 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"paratroop" is a collective singular, so paratroop units looks a bit weird and jars the reader. paratrooper units, or paratroops could work here. Of course, with a non-generic unit hierarchy it would make better sense, "VNA paratroop companies" "VNA paratroop platoons" "VNA paratroop battalions". Maybe it is just my reading comprehension breaking down, but I stumbled over the phrase. Fifelfoo (talk) 06:08, 12 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

1a For some reason ineffectively jars me, ineffectually, is this an en-Au bias on my part? "The coup was ineffectively executed;"

Changed YellowMonkey (new photo poll) 05:16, 12 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

1a "Thi found himself involved in another coup plot as the link between" as the link is a confusing use, as as comparative versus as as existential verb. "Thi found himself involved in another coup plot acting as the link between"

Done YellowMonkey (new photo poll) 05:16, 12 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

1a "with Buddhist activists prominent" prominent in what? A noun is really required after this construction. Reorder?

Done YellowMonkey (new photo poll) 05:16, 12 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

1a "anti-war expansion ideology" confusing noun phrase

Done YellowMonkey (new photo poll) 05:16, 12 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

1a "as the junta threatened to expel Taylor" comma, the next phrase is a separate clause, not an element of the "and" set

Done YellowMonkey (new photo poll) 05:16, 12 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

1a "—Thieu was the figurehead chief of state—" unnecessary parenthetical clause? shift or move?

Redundant, already pointe dout earlier YellowMonkey (new photo poll) 05:16, 12 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

1a "whom they had a regionalistic rapport", maybe it is en-Au again, but "regionalistic" => "regional" later "the regionalistic tendencies" => "regionalist"

Well, Merriam-Webster has this term, and doesn't say it is a regional variant, but as the article is written in UsE per US involvement, I guess we should be ok?? YellowMonkey (new photo poll) 05:16, 12 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

That's okay with me. I expect it is a term of art in the US literature about Vietnam in the period too. Fifelfoo (talk) 06:08, 12 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

1a "Ky did not say that Thi supported negotiations with the communists as a means of ending the war, but he did have a history of removing officials and military figures who promoted such a policy." I'm confused: is Thi for or against negotiations? What does his removal of pro-negotiators have to do with Ky maligning Thi as pro-negotiation?

Tweaked. Thi privately thought negotiations were ok and Ky did not like such people, although he didn't say this when he sacked him YellowMonkey (new photo poll) 05:16, 12 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Think I've fixed the last two things YellowMonkey (bananabucket!) 07:27, 12 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comments - sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 13:18, 11 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Support Pending a possible fix to the leade. The existing intro seems a bit long to me. It seems more like a slightly condensed version of the main article than an introduction or synopsis.Intothatdarkness (talk) 13:59, 12 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Pruning a bit YellowMonkey (new photo poll) 23:48, 12 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Pruned although I found it difficult, as he was involved as one of the main guys in seven attempts to effect a regime change, so it was hard to discard any of these. YellowMonkey (new photo poll) 06:09, 13 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. This looks better, although to me it's still a touch long for a basic leade. That said, I still support the FAC for this article. Well done!Intothatdarkness (talk) 18:32, 13 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

~~Comments~~Support: A quick read-through looks good, now doing a more detailed read. I know nothing about the subject, so I am commenting as a general reader and on readability.

Lead looks good; agree with comments above that it may be too long, but not a huge problem.
"and had served in French Army during World War I.": Served in the French Army?
"Thi joined the French Army at 17, and a few months later, Imperial Japan invaded Indochina during World War II and wrested control from France." Long sentence with an and too many.
"As part of their political effort, the French created the State of Vietnam (SoV) was an associated state in the French Union." Something missing, or "the" or "was" shouldn't be there.
"Thi felt that despite Diem's shortcomings, he was South Vietnam's best available leader, believing that enforced reform was the best outcome." Slightly clunky: I think its the "believing that enforce reform was the best outcome" that does it. Not sure of a way to improve it though.
"The rebels wanted Diem's younger brother and chief advisor Nhu and his wife Madame Ngo Dinh Nhu—widely regarded as the powers behind Diem's rule—out of the government, although they disagreed over whether to kill or deport the couple." Presumably Thi went along with this; it is not clear after the previous sentence, and the next sentence about Thi's actions seems a little disconnected from this one. Also, being pedantic, the beginning of the sentence reads a little like Diem's younger brother and his chief advisor are two different people. Maybe "The rebels wanted Nhu, Diem's younger brother and chief adviser, and his wife ..."

Unforutnately it didn't say who the hardliners were in this case YellowMonkey (new photo poll) 02:33, 18 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"...Thi broadcasted..." I always thought it was broadcast rather than broadcasted, but I could be wrong.

The dictionary says both are ok, but the "broadcast" is more common in USE, so used in this case YellowMonkey (new photo poll) 02:33, 18 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"When the loyalists reinforcements rolled into the capital aboard tanks and armmored vehicles and began to wrest the initiative, the rebels began to break." Too many ands? And presumably armored not armmored.
"He tricked the junta by teling them that as Khanh had played a large part in putting down the 1960 revolt, Thi would be an ideal mechanism for keeping the disliked Khanh in check." I'm afraid I don't get this, but it could be my unfamiliarity with the subject. What is the connection between the 1960 revolt, Khanh being disliked and Thi being ideal for keeping him in check?

Khanh helped put own Thi's 1960 coup, so people may think Thi would retaliate and try and disrupt his plans YellowMonkey (new photo poll) 02:33, 18 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The Young Turks are introduced twice, in the "Defeating the September 1964 coup" and in "Dissolution of the High National Council".
After Minh was overthrown, it does not state what happened until he became a target of the Young Turks. If he was overthrown, what became of him and why was he still a target?

He was still figurehead leader and was trying to lobby people YellowMonkey (new photo poll) 02:33, 18 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"In late January 1965, Buddhist protests against junta-appointed civilian Prime Minister Tran Van Huong broke out across South Vietnam over plans to expand conscription and the war against the communists, and were at their largest in I Corps, a Buddhist and anti-war escalation stronghold." Long sentence which becomes hard to follow.

Done as far as Dissolution of High Council. Very interesting so far, more to follow. --Sarastro1 (talk) 22:26, 16 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

More comments:

"While Ky used air power to stop the coup forces, and moderated and prevented the coup forces and Khanh’s loyalists from confrontation,[66] the Americans consulted with Thi and General Cao Van Vien, the commander of III Corps surrounding Saigon to assemble units hostile to both Khanh and the rebels into a Capital Liberation Force." Long sentence, with lots of ands in the first part. Loses meaning towards the end a little.
"Nevertheless, Thi was offered the prime ministerial position anyway." Does it need nevertheless and anyway in the same sentence.
Three "howevers" in quick succession in the 1965 coup section.
No other issues that I can spot. A very readable article which is easy to understand fpr a non-specialist like me. Seems to cover the main points and nothing obviously missing that I can see.
Are there no images of Thi which could go in the infobox?

I can't find a free portrait, no. There is a picture of him in a group lower down YellowMonkey (new photo poll) 08:29, 18 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

A great article, happy to support when these issues are cleared up. --Sarastro1 (talk) 10:28, 17 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Done, I think YellowMonkey (new photo poll) 02:33, 18 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Nice work, learned something which I knew nothing about! --Sarastro1 (talk) 20:32, 18 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.